Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: il padrone on March 07, 2013, 11:02:08 pm
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From a comment on another forum, I was inspired to define the main ride handling benefit of front bags. I have been witness to quite a good few falls where people were using rear panniers only.
not a big fan of front panniers who ever said that 4 panniers balances the bike needs there head examined ;)
If you plan on riding on gravel roads or other unsealed surfaces (rocky tracks, loose pea-gravel), through country with any steep descents, or carrying heavy loads including multi-days' food supplies; then low-mounted front panniers are highly recommended. They stabilise your steering, making it less twitchy - more predictable; and they act to keep your tyre on the road, rather then bouncing or sliding.
I've been witness to a number of nasty falls (with broken bones) when people have been riding on rough track descents, and all of them were not using front panniers. Others riding the same roads with four panniers were fine.
Come to think of it, my fall in early Feb that has left me with a broken collarbone was also a front tyre slide when I had just the rear bags :-\
Why it works?
1. A heavy load of gear on the rear rack acts like pendulum with your steering as the axis. Every pedal stroke pushes the pendulum and it swings to and fro. Your rear load acts via this to "steer" your bike. Not a huge problem in normal riding, where you just correct the steering to cope. Pedalling at higher speeds - not good. It can trigger a speed wobble. I have witnessed a very bad fall that occurred just this way.
2. Front wheel weight on the road is very important on loose surfaces. Heavy load on the rear with no weight on the front is not a huge issue most of the time. However on a gravel road descent (or even on wet tarmac) some speed, combined with a bit of a bump or rise, can leave your rear tyre sticking to the surface (good) while your front tyre lifts off or is un-weghted (not good). Combine this with some loose gravel, a bit of a rut-edge, or even a front wheel lift and steering correction, and very rapidly everything goes pear-shaped. I have also witnessed a number of falls that occurred in this sort of manner.
I have actually done overnight tours with solely front panniers and a rack-top bag. The bike rode very well and I was able to stand up on the pedals for climbs, something that is often quite destabilising with just rear bags. On my fully-loaded bike with 25-30kgs of gear I will frequently (and happily) do standing climbing. This would be impossible with all that load on the rear rack
So basically the weight in your front pannier will keep the tyre firmly planted on the road, will help keep less weight on the rear (especially behind the rear axle or high-mounted), and as long as the front panniers are low-mounted, balanced and fairly central to the steering axis (for & aft and side to side) they will not mess with your steering too much.
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A nice, instructive post, Pete, and your experience mirrors mine -- both firsthand and viewing others' struggles from afar as a rider, cycling instructor, and professional tour leader -- over the last 35 years. You've made the case "for" very well. Front bags made a hugely positive difference for me when I started using them when I first started touring; so much so, I can't imagine doing otherwise.
Like you, I will occasionally ride with front panniers only or front panniers and HB bag, but I don't go with rear bags alone. For the kinds of riding I do, I need a good amount of weight on the front for stability and the same reasons you describe.
Still, it seems there's no universal prescriptions in cycling, and some riders just don't feel comfortable with extra weight on the steering. Those I've asked explained that any extra steering effort more than offsets the handling benefits for them. People are individuals, and all have their preferences and foibles and likes and dislikes. I suspect the use of front panniers may be a bit like the Helmet Issue, with people agreeing to disagree and as much philosophy as science driving divergent viewpoints.
I'm so sorry to hear about your mishap and broken collarbone, Pete. I hope the pain will ease as mobility increases and you'll be fully mended and back to 100% soonest.
Best,
Dan.
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I would agree it is a bit of an individual thing, and many people are happy with just rear panniers. But many of these people may be tarmac riders. I would emphasise the real safety benefits of front panniers comes into play on gravel and dirt roads, especially on descents. Here I would have to say, if you do loaded touring off the tarmac with just rear panniers, you're asking for trouble.
Of course, it's not foolproof :-X
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/petesig26/Red%20Centre%20Way%20and%20the%20road%20to%20Old%20Andado/P1020126_zps0084c653.jpg)
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That looks nasty.....but what exactly has happened? Is that 2 bikes or just one with a spare wheel. I'd love to know more about that photo.
Thanks
Fraser
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That looks nasty.....but what exactly has happened? Is that 2 bikes or just one with a spare wheel. I'd love to know more about that photo.
Thanks
Fraser
I think he has hit a uni cyclist.
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That looks nasty.....but what exactly has happened? Is that 2 bikes or just one with a spare wheel. I'd love to know more about that photo.
It was on the Finke Road, NT, Central Australia. Last September, riding towards the Old Andado Station (cattle homestead). It is my bike with the Extrawheel trailer. The road was quite a soft graded sandy surface and we had to choose the hardest sections to ride. This section was a good deal firmer and I was moving at a fair clip, following a strange rut or groove, a bit like a tyre track but I think it may have been something dragged by a car. Anyway everything was OK, but then my front tyre clipped the edge of the rut, scraped and slid. Down I went!
Almost every pannier was flung off; the bike was wonderfully twisted up :D I was entirely OK, just a very small scrape on one leg if I recall.
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I speak from experience carrying my wee one (well wee...20KG!) in a bike seat around on a cruddy Raleigh that 20KG at the back only does really change balance and steering of the bike ;D
So to me it only makes sense to balance the load...
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I have to ask, whats in all those panniers?
Bob
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OK, you asked for it ;).
This was on a four week expedition into the deserts of Central Australia, a place where travelling 100kms to get a beer is pretty much the norm. And that's on the main roads.
The List
Handlebar bag - The Desk
documents
travel & tourist info.
camera
mp3 player
snacks
spare gloves
pen & notebook
sunglasses
Front panniers - The Pantry
Left side - Day meals
lunch & breakfast food
fresh fruit & vegies (when available) in cooler pack
Ipad
Powermonkey Extreme battery
First Aid kit
blockout, snack bars, nuts in pocket
Right side - Evening meals
dinner food
tool kit
spare tubes, spare ocky straps, plastic bag, in pocket
Rear panniers - Living quarters
Left side -The Kitchen
cycling clothes
fuel canisters
cooking set
stove
mess kit
cutting board
rain jacket
collapsible rucksack in pocket
Right side - The Bedroom
street clothes
sleeping bag
silk inner sheet
head-torch & candle lantern
towel
toiletry bag
spare shoes
pegless clothes line, trowel & toilet paper in pocket
Rack bag - The Shelter
tent
groundsheet
rain fly
Thermarest
folding camp stool
water bag, map case & sandals strapped under ocky strap
The arrangement was a little bit different using the Extrawheel, and you need to add the two 10L waterbags together with the food for ~6-7 days. By my reckoning: 20-25kgs of camping gear. 23kgs of water, 15-20kgs of food, for a total of up to 60kgs. That was only at the heaviest-laden points when starting off for a long stretch away from supplies.
:-\
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totally disagree with this panniers dont balance the bike as a matter of fact i would say the opposite ,they make the bike giddy on the steering .they should be banned if you ask me i decended at 52mph with just a read load only the barbag up front the bike never moved it was as solid as a rock.if your doing adventur cycling then ok your going to need front panniers only for carrying extra gear my tours are short a week at most and on tarmac .
if your unluckt enough to fall and break a bone its just careless riding believe me i was there fell on black ice broke my collorbone but it was my own fault i should have known better.
travelling at high speed on rough tracks is asking for trouble.
and before i get a slagging on this post i'm cycling all my life i know about bikes and how to ride and take it from me front panniers are not the way to go.
there ended the rant take it as you will.
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All respect for your background in cycling and what works for you jags. This all just goes to show that you and I have a different experience and background. For me, on backroad cycle-camping tours I find it matters quite a lot.
if your unluckt enough to fall and break a bone its just careless riding believe me i was there fell on black ice broke my collorbone but it was my own fault i should have known better.
After the last fall, I'm not so sure - happened as I was riding at <30kmh on a gravel road, gentle descent.... and I was braking to pull up. Then..... *Wham-Bam*. Hmm :-\
travelling at high speed on rough tracks is asking for trouble.
You need to define "high speed" carefully.
i'm cycling all my life i know about bikes and how to ride
In this respect, you and I have an identical background ;) . 46 years since I began pushing pedals, 38 years of cycle commuting and 36 years since I began touring.
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Not that I want to sit on the fence on this one but I have a bike very similar to Jags and running with just a rear load of 40kg the bike is as solid as a rock with no ill effects. Loading up the front by taking 10kg from the back makes a definite detrimental effect on the handling. However - this is for on road riding and if ever off road I would be concerned about front wheel slide and also about lifting the front wheel on bumpy ascents.
I am now running with both front and rear racks so I have the ability to carry the grandchild on a bikeseat on the back and take her shopping using either my small or large pannier bags on the front.
Andy
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well so much for your front panniers balancing your bike if you fell, if you had no front panniers i reckon you would have controlled your bike much better. travelling on rought roads as you do you should know by now 30km is to fast whats your hurry your on tour after all slow down.
things move around in front panniers no matter how carefull you pack them so makes for an unstable bike .
anyway i could argue until the cows come home you have your oponion and i have have mine which of course is the right one no doubt you will disagree but such is life .
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Weighing into this spirited discussion with a "middle-ground" consideration...
Individual bike geometry -- particularly with regard to differences in trail -- can make a huge difference as to how "comfortable" a given bike feels with a load in one place or another.
Case in point: A woman I know has made the move to go carless and has "discovered" high-end, bespoke bikes fairly recently. She has been through a fair number of "commissioned works" and has concluded she prefers traditional low-trail, randonneur-derived French geometry that favors putting the lion's share of the weight at the front of her bike, preferably in a large handlebar bag supported by a decaleur from above and from below by a front rack. This is a hallmark of low-trail design. Her bikes handle poorly with weight at the rear.
Conversely, relatively high-trail geometry (as often favored by Thorn) bikes generally fare better with a lion's share of weight at the rear.
The point being, different marques, models, and individual samples within (varying by size) can each display handling quirks. Most bikes have geometry varying to some degree as a function of frame size. As a result, what works well for one person or in some instances may not translate equally to others, be they bikes or people.
Bike handling, be it loaded or unladen, is a fascinating topic that is not entirely clear or fully understood.
The best and most valid test is usually individual experience if things go well, and then drawing on the collective experiences and experimenting with load distribution if one runs into problems.
All the best,
Dan.
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well so much for your front panniers balancing your bike if you fell, if you had no front panniers i reckon you would have controlled your bike much better. travelling on rought roads as you do you should know by now 30km is to fast whats your hurry your on tour after all slow down.
That's just the thing - it was not a rough road at all, but rather a good smooth gravel surface. We'd ridden through a much trickier (but still not exceptionally rough) section of the road previously.
This is the rough road - the Old Bay Road - closed to traffic. (I did not fall here)
(http://smile.webshots.com/images/480cf690ef59012ff4d022000abc09fa/jpg/800x600)
It was in pretty good riding condition, a bit soft is all. On other occasions sections of it have looked like this
(http://smile.webshots.com/images/36590280ef5c012fa9be22000abc0db5/jpg/800x600)
This was the section of road somewhere near where I did fall (Killala Rd - open to traffic)
(http://smile.webshots.com/images/366b5130ef5c012fa9be22000abc0db5/jpg/800x600)
The location is right about here - 200m or so before the big hair-pin bend (https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Killala+Rd,+Apollo+Bay+VIC&hl=en&ll=-38.756049,143.619831&spn=0.002154,0.005284&sll=-37.860283,145.079616&sspn=1.116772,2.705383&oq=Killa&t=h&hnear=Killala+Rd,+Apollo+Bay+Victoria+3233&z=18).
I have ridden this road on at least 5 previous occasions by the way so the fall was not caused by some sudden change of surface catching me out. The front tyre slid sideways on a good gravel surface - suddenly and absolutely
things move around in front panniers no matter how carefull you pack them so makes for an unstable bike .
I have ridden with front panniers tightly packed (nothing will be moving around) and half-packed (where things do move around). On no occasion have I ever noticed any change to my steering from this. I can understand a view that front panniers change your steering feel - they do make it harder to change directions suddenly - the typical racer's move. However on a tour I am interested in stable, straight-line steering. I rarely need to make sudden twitches or turns to 'flick off' another rider ;) The benefit in control I am talking about is to give greater directional stability, the ability to sit or stand on long climbs with a load, and the steering control of a weighted front end on gravel surfaces. I find front panniers of great benefit for all of this.
And jags, please give me the credit to judge what is "too fast" for myself. I have been riding bikes on gravel roads for long enough to know that I was not doing an excessive speed on this road. I had passed by one of mates just prior to this, but that was on a short climb, something I do a lot better than Ed who is close to twice my weight. As I said, I was actually slowing to stop when I fell, probably actually travelling at 15-20kmh. The lack of severe grazing was a testimony to the lower speed. As for touring, yes that's what we were doing - I had stopped three times (for a gate, a photo stop, and some wandering sheep) in the past 3-4kms. It is a marvelous scenic backroad.
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Beautiful country there, Pete.
Do the doctors have a timeline for your recovery from the broken collarbone? Is the pain beginning to subside? Did they just leave it be or suggest a sling, as seems to be the usual practice here'bouts now'days?
I've been caught out by unforeseen road conditions from time to time myself. I think one of my hardest falls took place at jogging speed when I hit some spilled sand with the front tire, slid, then the tire caught and I was promptly high-sided off the bike and down an incline. I never knew what hit me and lay there breathless and stunned till I could get my wits together. I was unhurt except for the shock of it all, but I'm still amazed at the speed with which things went bad while "just riding along". Man!
Annnnd a gentle reminder (jags) that spirited -- even passionate -- discussion of issues is always welcome, but should not spill over to personal aspersions that can lead to unplesantries and bad feelings.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan
Six weeks in a sling. It's been five weeks now so things are improving. The severe pain was only for about three weeks, when I was able to go through the day without pain-killers. The broken rib was more painful really, sleeping and getting out of bed was tricky. The collar-bone doesn't hurt too much now, as long as I don't try to do too much with it, but the light pain is still there. I have been able to take the arm out of the sling at times for the past two weeks, but it eventually starts to hurt a good bit and I go back to the sling.
There was some concern early on that the X-ray seemed to indicate an overlapping break with 3cms of foreshortening, which could possibly require surgery, but a later X-ray showed that it was an oblique fracture (broken diagonally) that looked like an overlap.
It is the thrid time I have broken a collarbone - I am starting to feel some affinity for our local cycling hero - Cadel Evans ;)
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worry not Dan I'm totally in control ;D ;D
il padrone i sure hope your over your broken collor bone believe me i know the pain only too well.
but look i know your a experience cyclist in all kinds of terrain but you will never convince me that front panniers makes for a stable bike.
if i upset you with my post i do apologise but I'm sticking to my guns ::)
the only time I'll use front panniers is because I've no room left in my rear panniers
sorry buddy but there you have it. ;)
cheers
jags.
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It is the third time I have broken a collarbone...
:o Oh, noes!
Man! Here's hoping the third time is the charm to banish any more for a lifetime to come. Boy...!
All the best,
Dan. (...who is still shaking his head in dismay over *three* busted collarbones and thinking, "That poor guy!")
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oh man just read that 3 times i think i would be hanging up the wheels. :'(
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You don't know the half of it - really!!
But give up riding the bike?? Kinda like giving up breathing :o
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You don't know the half of it - really!!
^ Good writers call this "foreshadowing". Marketers call it the "hook". It works either way. ;D
I sense a Good (if horrible for you) Story behind all this, and am all ears if you'd like to Share, Pete.
All the best,
Dan. (...who is cringing in anticipation :P)
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Oh, all right :P
Note: not one of the following events involved a contact with any motor vehicle.
2001 - MTB ride descending a good track.... except for the water-bars that Parks Victoria had added. OTB and faceplant
Result: broken wrist (intra-articular) - the only injury that is still giving me problems, yet to resolve
2005 - MTB Orienteering event. Rode down a short dip through some mud. Front wheel slid sideways on greasy solid clay base. I crashed to earth on dry, hard clay
Result: Broken NOF (hip), broken collar-bone.
2008 (my annus horribilis) - (1) Riding the road bike home on residential streets, just washed with light rain. Braked on slight descent for a right turn, the rear wheel slid. I (stupidly) kept braking, the front wheel slid. I practiced braking with my elbow-tip. :'( While waiting at the roadside I noticed something - the road surface here was covered with a brown sheen - a slight muddy wash from trucks carting clay soil out of a nearby construction project ::)
Result: broken olecranon (elbow tip). I never even knew it had a special name ;)
(2) Riding on the road bike on a country road tour (tarmac). When trying to move into single file for an overtaking car, I clipped my front wheel against the next rider's rear pannier. Down I went! Lesson to be learned - do not put yourself at risk to convenience an overtaking motorist.
Result: broken collarbone (this one healed up very quickly, just broken at the tip)
2010 - touring the outback, on the Finke Rd, north of Oodnadatta. My cycling partner rode into sand and stopped. I veered to pass, stopped in the same deep sand. Stationary, but clipped in and tipping the wrong way, I reached out to support myself off his rear load. With 55kgs on the bike, it was not going to stay up. Down I crashed and 'klunk' went my shoulder.
Result: dislocated shoulder.
Then there's 2013 :-\
Not a good record there I know. Some things to note however:
* not one involved a motor vehicle as I said
* several were riding off sealed roads and on MTBs
* high speed was never a factor - I never had anything more than some superficial grazing - not the archetypal road rash. Well, the 2001 OTB may have been a result of "too fast for the conditions" (that had changed as I knew the track fairly well).
* stationary falls can be just as bad for you as a fall at 30kmh.
* I do really enjoy my cycling, enjoy getting off onto the little unsealed backroads and love climbing and descending in the mountains. Most of these falls did not occur on the typical mountain bush road descent.
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My goodness, Pete!
Well, now you've gotten your lifetime's allotment of bike injuries out of the way in only a dozen years, the rest of your cycling life will be smooth sailing and trouble-free (Hopefully! Fingers crossed!)
Looking at your account, there seems to be no universal single factor, but surface hazards/irregularities seem to play a pretty fair part in several of the problems you've encountered. It can be so easy to get caught out by changes in road surface, expecially if the light changes (shadows, or High Noon, when there *aren't* shadows to highlight washboard and such). On pavement, contamination with greasy clay, sand, fine loam can also really take one by surprise. I think it is the sudden change in friction coefficient that makes lotsathingshappenatonce! and then suddenly! one finds the're looking at the sky from a whole new perspective.Some things to note however:
* not one involved a motor vehicle as I said
Thank goodness for that! * several were riding off sealed roads and on MTBs
Which goes to show such things can happen anywhere. * high speed was never a factor
Pete, I've analyzed your data carefully and have concluded you need to go faster to stay out of trouble! :D * stationary falls can be just as bad for you as a fall at 30kmh.
No truer words! I managed an "off" on a fast descent through Oregon's Coast Range at 48mph when my wheels hit moss while leaned far over for a fast corner. Fortunately, it was raining heavily at the time, and I ended up just sliding to a stop on my bottom....except for the road-slime, not a single mark or bruise on me. There's been some "heavy" crashes at slow speed, though, that just rattled my teeth!* I do really enjoy my cycling, enjoy getting off onto the little unsealed backroads and love climbing and descending in the mountains.
I know you do, Pete, and it shows in your accounts and photos. I'm so glad you're able to bet out and about on the bike still, and wish you all the best in avoiding any such unfortunate problems in the future -- having used your quota at once, you're home free from now on!
Thanks for the background. I just wish it hadn't all happened to you!
Best wishes for fast healing,
Dan.
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Actually on looking back at these incidents there are a couple of other intriguing things:
* two on the MTB, two on the road bike, two on the touring bike ??? Equality of disciplines ;)
* almost all of them have been associated with some form of road surface variation or problem
* the one that didn't was my own stupid error in close maneuvering
* almost none of them involved front panniers
* the one that did (2010) occurred at zero speed and the presence of front bags ?? I really think the fact that we had not lowered our tyre pressure was a major factor, plus I put my arm out.
I have fallen off a good number of times with no injuries:
1. On MTB rides when the landings are usually softer and speeds are not high
2. On touring when fully-loaded and riding on sandy roads. The landings are softer, but also another aspect, the front and rear panniers shield you often. In slow speed sandy track falls (they simply do happen) you will often (should) keep the hands steering the bike and as you get stuck and topple at quite slow speed, the front and rear bags hit the sand first. You roll over with the bike and generally get no more than a dusting of sand.
Here's a classic shot of my son, on Kangaroo Island's sandy roads. I was right behind him and just avoided hitting him when he dug into deep sand and tumbled in front of me. We both just stepped off the bikes as they stalled :D ;D
(http://smile.webshots.com/images/e88eeee0ef5c012feb5e12313f0039e4/jpg/800x600)
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Pete,
Man, you've got some colorful crash photos! Carnage second to none! You had some real presence of mind to dig out the camera and snap the shots that soon after having an "off".
This is a long shot (trying to be helpful), but I've been thinking about your bone-breaks: Have you ever been diagnosed as osteopenic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopenia
I have osteopenia, and so do a surprising (to me) number of my cycling friends and acquaintances. According to my doctor, cycling is not considered sufficiently weight-bearing to help build and maintain the mineral density of bones and my many years of cycling extensively have made me more prone to fractures than I might have been otherwise(!). She says among her patients, she sees a high incidence of osteopenia in post-menopausal women and...in her male patients who are avid cyclists to the exclusion of other, weight-bearing exercise.
I entered "Cyclists Bone Denisity" into Google and the results spewed forth, including this one: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/is-bicycling-bad-for-your-bones/
She prescribed calcium and Vitamin D3 supplements (Oregon's winters are notoriously cloudy and we don't get a lot of sun for much of the year). About a decade ago, I added 5mi/8km daily walks in addition to cycling so I'd have some regular weight-bearing exercise. This, along with the mineral and vitamin supplements seem to be improving the osteopenia, according to my DEXA bone-density test results. The news hasn't been so great for my friend, Michael, who just turned 60...and has lost nearly 2 inches in height after about 45 years of cycling-exclusive exercise. He's broken a number of bones in slow-speed crashes as well.
I realize this is a long way off-topic for front panniers (apologies), but I'm wondering if there might be a possible factor for you in the hope it might help prevent future breakages.
All the best,
Dan. (...who may start putting rocks in his pockets or wearing a backpack to make his walks more effective at building bone density)
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These days, with the nice compact Lumix, it travels often in my jersey pocket so I can just pull it out and shoot quickly to capture the moment. I take twice as many photos this way. The sudden spill, animals by the road, the special view of the momentary show of sunlight through clouds are all so much easier to capture.
Re. bone density issues. People have at times suggested this to me. I have mentioned it to my doctor, but he has not been too concerned. The comment after hearing the description of what happened has been "well you fell hard, onto a hard surface. Bones are likely to break". This recent fall was a hard impact, hard enough to knock me out for a couple of minutes despite wearing my helmet. I'm not really too concerned at present.
[edit] Note this as well:
Even more encouraging, most recreational cyclists probably don’t need to worry too much about their bones. “The studies to date have looked primarily at racers,” Smathers says. “That’s a very specialized demographic. These guys train for hours at a very high intensity. They sweat a lot. They never go for runs. They don’t usually do much weight-lifting,” to avoid adding bulk. “They’re strange.”
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Ouch :S
I only had one bad fall so far while commuting. And the only fall ever...but I am not exactly a risk taker on the bike and roads with 15-20 mph are rarely a risky area. No load involved either just sheer...well stupidity really. Or bad road design if you want, metal manhole covers aren't a good idea for (motor)cyclists no grip at all. Which I didn't realize coming from cycle country The Netherlands.
I slipped on a wet manhole cover taking a corner on a wet road at 18ish MPH on new kevlar tires. They were hard and not grippy at all. Result: An arm skid (the coat was fine, my arm wasn't a big graze), the roadster handlebars hit first, then the side of my head. I wasn't knocked out but...I just hit myself on the tooth that sticks out a bit forwards which chipped off and went through my front lip.
Result: A nice hole and 4 stitches. The numbing for the stitches hurt more than the actual gap ;D
And a permanent scar. Ah well.
Ow and a fall on the tiny patch of black ice while the rest of the promenade was gritted result a small scar on leg. Gotta love commuting! And the usual near misses where your backwheel skids on no idea what, dirt on the road, yellow lines...
Collar bones break quite easily I believe, colleague at work had his broken due a 5-a-side match. Drop bars don't help as the shoulder can hit first, wide MTB bars and roadster bars tend to hit first, then you.
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Individual bike geometry -- particularly with regard to differences in trail -- can make a huge difference as to how "comfortable" a given bike feels with a load in one place or another.
On the Moulton TSR I had for a few years it handled much better with most of the weight in front panniers and only light stuff on the back. But the Moulton front rack is on the frame, not the forks. Same goes for the Brompton - much better with most of the weight in the front bag (done several thousand kms of touring with that).
With more conventional touring bikes, I prefer to spread my kit over 4 panniers if I am carrying a lot of stuff (it generally works out at about 40% front/60% rear). I definitely don't like having a heavy load on the back with nothing on the front, but have done tours with this setup in the past.
With a lighter load, two rear panniers alone work fine for me, but I am as happy with just two front panniers if the weight is within the recommended limit for the fork/rack.
An advantage of having weight on the front is that it reduces front wheel lift thus allowing lower gears on steep climbs.
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Well I cycle toured about the U.K for 8 to 10 weeks with Just front panniers on my Top End road bike! Back in late 1980's
It just handled so so good, light and fast ;D Why because my bike had a 50%front/50%rear once I was on and riding it.
Pete . .
8)
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::)
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Well I cycle toured about the U.K for 8 to 10 weeks with Just front panniers on my Top End road bike! Back in late 1980's
It just handled so so good, light and fast ;D Why because my bike had a 50%front/50%rear once I was on and riding it.
Pete . .
8)
I tried loaded front panniers with nothing on the rear rack, on my Sherpa, just as an experiment and couldn't tell any real difference to the handling, also tried front panniers and our 18 month old daughter in a rear rack seat on my old CB tourer back in the late eighties, she and I both survived, the back wheel was replaced soon after we returned home ;-)
sdg.
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I tried loaded front panniers with nothing on the rear rack, on my Sherpa, just as an experiment and couldn't tell any real difference to the handling, also tried front panniers and our 18 month old daughter in a rear rack seat on my old CB tourer back in the late eighties, she and I both survived, the back wheel was replaced soon after we returned home ;-)
sdg.
Yes this is why I just run with Front ones. Good handling and wheels last.
I was Green Lane, MTB tracks, Back roads, etc on my very light Topend Road Bike.
I stayed at YHA's all over the UK.
Pete . .
:)
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Think front pannier are essential but these ones are badley designed.
While touring round Holland a couple of years ago my wife brushed her front wheel against my pannier, the spokes got caught in the hook that’s designed to hold the shoulder strap in place. This threw both of us onto the road and required about 45mins with a spoke key to get her wheel rideable again, and ripped the hook for the shoulder strap out of the pannier, flipped the fork round so that some holes were worn in the other front paniear and also made a hole in my Ortlieb back roler rear pannier.
I have since removed the shoulder strap hooks form my Ortlieb front rollers and patched the holes left by the plastic hook that holds the shoulder strap as I did not feel this hook was very safe!
Ewan
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Yikes, Ewan! What carnage, and in just a moment's time!
Your tale is instructive to all of us, and a reminder that even seemingly innocuous items can be the catalyst for Much Larger Things if it all comes together wrong. So sorry for the bad experience, and hope no one was injured (apart from the wheel and the panniers).
My Dutch touring partner had front rollers (has since added them to the rear as well, replacing an older set of bags by another maker) and was spooked by the possibilities of the straps hanging in their keepers, so he removed the straps and simply clicked the Fastex buckles to each other at the top, after rolling. That little hook was still there on the face of each bag, though, and I sometimes wondered if...! Now I know. No matter how unlikely or infrequent, Things can Happen.
I went with the cap-top SportPacker and BikePacker series, but still take great care to "safety wire" all items I carry outside my bags or under the lid: I use a little mini-carabiner to secure any loose drawstrings (say on my chair stuff sack, tent carry bag, etc.) so a) the drawstrings won't feed into the spokes and get caught with horrible outcomes and b) so I won't lose these items if they should work loose from their regular straps. Also, thanks to Ortlieb's most recent warning, I have stowed my HB bag strap inside the bag, rather than wrapping it 'round the bottom.
Best,
Dan.
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Dangling straps and cords are always something to be very wary of. Having had to do a roadside removal of my son's cassette, wheel bearings, axle and freehub body, all because of a dangling bungy cord, it's something I know all about it!!
I am not a fan of the Ortlieb Rollers for several reasons. I have one pair, but don't even bother using the straps. Any time a spinning front wheel comes into contact with any stationary part of another bike it is not going to be pretty, same for any dangly straps. It is possibly another virtue of front panniers that if you and your travelling partners have them, when riding along you may bump panniers but the front panniers substantially shield the front wheel from contacts.
Back in the 80s and early 90s I used to strap different items on top of the rear rack - tent, thermarest, shoes etc. Now the gear that I strap on top of the rear rack is always packed into an Ortlieb roll-top bag. Helps to keep it cleaner and protected from any effects of UV as well.
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I would never leave the shoulder straps on front panniers when riding any way.
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The thing is, all the Ortlieb promo shots show them packed up with the strap looped down and tightened under the external hook - completely unnecessary for secure packing of course :-\ Newcomers to the brand often think this is how they need to be used.
(http://abbotsfordcycles.com.au/images/FrontRollerClassicRed.gif)
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I bought front Ortlieb panniers and have yet to use them on tour. In fact I am having great difficulty tying them up at the top.
Could you post a picture of your method il pardre?
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The manfriend has Carridice Super C...we didn't get around yet to cycling so far that we needed to resort to low riders + front bags, but how do these hold up?
Any SURPRISE WHEEL TANGLE straps to be careful of?
(It seems just because you are paranoid about bungling straps doesn't mean they're not out to get you)
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Hi all,
I just purchased a full set of Super C panniers for the Sherpa. I am sure there must be a lot of thorn riders out there with front Carrradice panniers on their Thorn low loaders. I found it a nightmare trying to get the clips opened to release the bag. There is hardly any room in there between the two top bars of the carrier to get your finger in to clip open the locking devise. The Ortlieb release system seems like heaven now. I await your advise ;)
Strict Naturist
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There are occasional posts about Ortlieb panniers being a faff to strap up and I wonder if this is because users are trying to replicate the arrangement of that folded down carrying strap. Which is a faff.
Get rid of the carrying straps. Just hold the two long edges of the bag in line at the top, tightly fold over three times, then bring the two mating fasteners together over the top. It really is very quick and secure.
Then there's another fastener across the short dimension which can be used and tightened if the panniers are really packed and bulky, that strap can also be used to hold a rain jacket down on the outside aka Carradice saddlebag straps.
I have to say, though, that I use Roller Plus versions which are made of thinner and lighter fabric than the standard versions. I toured with someone who had the standard ones, and the fabric is very thick and isn't at all easy to fold. My buddy had a much harder time getting his pannier tops folded over. Vaude are like that, really thick tough plasticky material which is hard to fold neatly. Plus Vaude have the straps fastening into the sides of the pannier which is another innovation to foil a quick fasten up and getaway.
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I bought front Ortlieb panniers and have yet to use them on tour. In fact I am having great difficulty tying them up at the top.
Could you post a picture of your method il pardre?
As I said, I don't generally use the roller panniers, I prefer the bags with the top cap flap. However the rollers are supposed to be much more waterproof. This guy shows you the correct method(s) for closing them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrUcGdrcb-U) to be fully waterproof.
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There is hardly any room in there between the two top bars of the carrier to get your finger in to clip open the locking devise.
Strange. I can get my thumb in there without any trouble. I would say I have a rather medium thumb - looks about 15 mm thick from the base of the nail to the pad. The distance between the rails looks about 25 mm. The clip seems to take up about half that space, so there is maybe 12 mm to squeeze a finger in. So my thumb gets a bit of a squeeze fitting in the space, but not tight at all.
I am working in the electric power industry these days. A month ago or so I was in San Diego for the DistribuTech trade show. I met a couple guys there who repair equipment out in the field. These guys were like 230 pounds and no flab. I shook their hands. YEOW! I think they would be frustrated try to release the SuperC clips on the low rider racks!
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I found it a nightmare trying to get the clips opened to release the bag. There is hardly any room in there between the two top bars of the carrier to get your finger in to clip open the locking devise.
Strict Naturist
don't have these panniers but if I recall correctly they used to be available with 2 types of clip to attach the bag to the rack, a carradice one or KLICKfix® clips but I may be mistaken. Perhaps 1 type of clip releases from the lo loaders more easaly.
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i have the roll top ortlieb not pvc though canvis type.
for the few times i used them never had an issue with straps ,
nope that was the least of my worries ;D
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To address the original topic - I fall into the camp where I find the front bags help the feel of the bike. Some bicycle designs, like the Nomad, I find to be only a bit worse with no front bags ... others I'd not even ride loaded, Fuji touring, unless the weight is on all four wheels. Never yet have I found front panniers to decrease the quality, as far as I judge a good ride. If I ever go real light, in fact, only the front bag or bags come along. But then I really value a nice solid stable steering quality. I don't want to pay a lot of attention, just rather to enjoy the day and so I want a truck like handling. You can keep the zippy sports car feel. ;)