Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: Pavel on August 19, 2016, 09:39:29 pm
-
I was reading about tubeless advances and have mixed feelings. It seems a great thing, especially for regular riding, but somehow I think that the lack of "do-it-yourself" and the lack of wide adoption in remote areas might be problematic for the traditional, self-suficient, long distance tourer. Needing a compressor, needing high levels of cleanliness and other details may make tubeless an undesirable choice at this juncture, I think - or is it, in your opinions, worthy of a try? The advantages do sound quite appealing.
Any thoughts? Has anyone gone this way yet?
Some good info here at Schwalbe -- http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tubeless
-
I think I average one flat a year and that is from riding three to five bikes during the year. Last I heard you have to renew the sealant on occasion. That would turn me off of the technology if I had to do that much maintenance on several bikes.
And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that. And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.
A friend of mine does a lot of mountain biking, he loves tubeless, but I have never asked him any detailed questions on it. So, some people see benefits from it.
Last year I did some mountain biking in an area with a lot of thorns (the sharp pointy things, not the brand of bikes) and I used Slime in a couple of inner tubes. I run presta valves, had trouble getting one valve to seal right. For that trip I used tubes with removable valve cores. I think the sealant hardened in the valve and when I broke that seal to add air it did not seal right later.
-
And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that. And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.
The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".
Thoughts, folks?
-
The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".
Thoughts, folks?
Short answer:
No deflation is required, unless your tires are close to the maximum pressure.
Long answer:
The Sheldon Brown site has a comment about deflating tires for flying: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/cycling-myths.html (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/cycling-myths.html)
There are two main points:
1. The cargo hold of a plane is pressurized to the same pressure as the passenger cabin, normally the pressure at 10,000 feet altitude. If you can safely take your bike up a mountain to 10,000 feet elevation, then your bike should be safe in a plane.
2. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi. In the vacuum of space, the pressure is 0 psi. So if you take your tires into space, it is equivalent to adding an additional 14.7 psi into your tires. As long as your tires can handle that addition 14.7 psi, you should be fine.
This webpage has a chart showing the atmospheric pressure at different altitudes: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html). At an airliner's cruising altitude (around 40,000 feet), the pressure is 2.7 psi. So if the plane is not pressurized, the relative increase in tire pressure is 12 psi.
- DaveS
-
And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that. And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.
The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".
Thoughts, folks?
I had to deflate the tires because fitting the tires if they were inflated (Marathon Extreme 2.25 or 57mm wide each) when they were packed against the rear dropouts would be much too thick to fit in the 10 inch thick S&S case. I tried, did not fit.
-
Hi All!
I have actually performed a homegrown tubeless tire conversion on a friend's bike that worked and continues to do so some 7 months later with air loss comparable to or less than that of a conventional tire and innertube setup. While it is not as slick as the commercial rigs, my pal is pleased and sees no need to "pay good money" to get similar results from commercial products.
A DIY effort at going tubeless can be done inexpensively and even successfully, but not without some trial and effort the first go-'round. It gets easier on a second and successive wheel/tire conversions, but is not the relative turnkey effort provided by combining purpose-made components.
Despite this "success", I have decided not to go the (DIY) tubeless route myself for several reasons:
1) By the time the rims were taped and the tires filled to the appropriate/recommended levels with anti-puncture goo (Stan's), there wasn't a lot of weight savings over a conventional innertube and lightweight rim strip, given I tend to prefer fairly light tubes.
2) No matter how little, I don't like the idea of free goo inside the tire cavity or getting on the rim when I demount the tire in the field to fit an emergency tube. I might feel differently if I used disc brakes as on my friend's bike instead of the v-brakes on my Nomad.
3) So far, when traveling in goathead thorn country (i.e. large patches of America's Great Basin desert regions), I've had good luck stopping mid-tour to fit some Mr Tuffy tire liners for the period when I'll be <ahem> amidst thorns instead of just riding one. This has worked well for me and in that relatively brief period of time, I did not suffer from any Mr Tuffy end-caused tube abrasion, though I have seen such punctures happen in long-term use on my late father's bike. When I leave goathead country I stop roadside or in camp, remove and roll up the liners, then remount my tires and go my merry way as before.
4) If the Tuffy liners did not work (so far, so good), I think I would prefer either thicker, "thorn-proof" tubes (which aren't "proof" but are more resistant to puncture), perhaps filled with sealant. However, I am still leery because of the horrible mess caused in the past when a tire sealant was used on my sister's bike. The task fell to me to try and disassemble the lot when a puncture too big to seal occurred. I swear, the tire casing was glued to the tube which was glued to the rim strip and rim and forever after, the spoke nipples were reluctant to turn. Some sealant remained on the rim sides as a stain forever. Thank goodness it was a coaster-brake bike. What a dreadful mess.
5) Based on the homegrown tubeless conversion I made, I think it was potentially more trouble than it was worth. If you reduce the air pressure too much, the results can be (were for me) unpredictable in terms of air loss.
For those interested in a DIY conversion, I'll include some links below, but here is the basic procedure I used:
1) Demount your tires and tubes and rim strips and clean the rims so the surface is smooth and clean of any debris or goo.
2) Using Gorilla Tape (a sort of duct tape with more tenacious adhesive), cut a *roll* to width. By "Cut to width" I mean a width that allows the tape to cover from crochet (rim bead hook base at the inner sidewall to rim bead hook base at the inner sidewall *including* the extra length needed to drop fully into the rim well. It is very easy to go wrong with the registration of the tape on the rim between the bead seats, and Gorilla Tape can be difficult to re-seat.
3) This taping is the most critical part, because it not only helps seat the tire to allow inflation without a compressor, it prevents leaks and aids tire retention. It can also make it *very* difficult to dis/mount a tire. The procedure here is to start the wrap and go all the way 'round, overlapping the ends and covering the valve hole. What is Unknown until you try it several times (because actual tires vary in bead-seat diameter as a result of production tolerances, age, and de/mounting/stretch) is how many wraps are needed. I ended up redoing the rear rim twice (so 3x total) and the front was good the first time.
I'll make the point again, because it may not be obvious to a first-timer: The layers of tape are intended to overlap the rim at the tire's bead-seating area, unlike many conventional rim tapes. This makes the rim effectively larger at the bead seat and a better seal against the tire bead. Get it right and you can (re)inflate the tire with a hand pump and it will retain air for a long time. Get it too small in diameter, and the tire will leak air and might not even seat well enough with a compressor to retain air. Get it too large and you can fold a tire lever trying to get the bead seated or removed from the rim. This is why the redos on the friend's rear rim -- the rim was either a wee bit small or the tire was a wee big big, or both. Once I got it right, it worked perfectly, but it took me trial and error to get there and I would expect to adjust the wraps of Gorilla Tape if the tire is replaced with another example.
This all works better if your tire has not been cast in a radial-sectional mold, which leaved little ribs across the bead that can cause small air leaks. With care, those bits of rubber flash can be trimmed using the scissors from a small (Classic) Victorinox Swiss Army Knife, but it is far better if circumferential molds have been used; they leave a smooth bead.
4) Cut a hole in the tape over the valve hole and install a proper, commercial valve intended for tubeless installations. Homemade versions will not work well here, and in any case you will need a two-piece valve that can be disassembled to pour in the sealant.
5) It takes some bouncing of the barely inflated tired to seat the beads and some roll-out to finish the job, then some fairly frantic pumping to finally seat the beads. I don't really know how better to describe the process, but assuming you've laid down the correct number of tape layers for your tire and rim combination, it goes pretty smoothly and would allow for field installation of an innertube in case of punctures too large or too numerous for the sealant to plug or if you want to get going quickly without applying a patch to the inner tire casing. All that said, I had some trouble with the first (rear) rim getting the tire bead to seat evenly, so that alone required several tries in addition to the re-wraps of (fresh) Gorilla Tape. The front rim again presented no trouble and all went fine in one go.
6) Assuming you got everything right, you now have a workable DIY tubeless tire setup.
I expect that with time and temperature, the Gorilla Tape will become very difficult to remove cleanly even with a heat gun and considerable effort with solvent. It makes it impossible to get to the spoke nipples, but with great care (and a good deal of frustration), a spoke can still be replaced while the tape is intact by reusing the original nipple, though getting it out far enough to catch threads can require considerable patience because the nipple top wants to stick to the sticky underside of the Gorilla Tape above it.
Further, I expect the tape's adhesive could become less effective with time and water entry through the spoke nipples onto the adhesive layer, causing air leaks and the need for a redo.
Now, the promised links:
A custom Google search for DIY tubeless, in case you wish to give it a try:
https://www.google.com/#q=make+your+own+tubeless+bike+tires
A guide that hews closely to what I did:
https://www.ridemorebikes.com/mtb-tubeless-conversion-guide/
A video showing a Stan's No Tubes kit...other methods will show in the sidebar on the right side of your screen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH1O2W7E_wQ
Hope this helps. The DIY approach is inexpensive and can make for an interesting afternoon's project. Short-term results depend mostly on patience and devotion to task, while long-term results are unknown.
Best,
Dan.
-
I read that with considerable schadenfreude, Dan. Better you than me. Tubeless tyres surely can't be worth that much mess, effort and installation uncertainty. Thanks for saving me the time and expense (Gorilla tape and glue is very pricey here.)
-
And this year I packed up one bike with S&S couplers in the case for air travel, needed to let all air out of the tires for that. And I would not want any sealant in my wheels on a trip like that.
The last x2 I have flown ( return trips so x4 flights) I haven't let air out of my tires.
I was only asked once out of the x4 flights if I had deflated my tires.
I answered," Doesn't everyone?".
Thoughts, folks?
I had to deflate the tires because fitting the tires if they were inflated (Marathon Extreme 2.25 or 57mm wide each) when they were packed against the rear dropouts would be much too thick to fit in the 10 inch thick S&S case. I tried, did not fit.
Thanks Muck. I had suspected as much .
Strange how airline staff still continue to ask for deflation.
-
Several years ago I had a slow leak on a tube. Changed the tube, after a few bike rides, the replacement tube developed a slow leak too. I never could find what was causing the punctures, there apparantly was some sharp object in the tire. I took one of the leaky tubes and, cut a slit in it lengthwise where the tube had gone on the rim tape, cut out the valve stem, and used that as a tire liner. I never had another problem with that tire causing punctures. It was not a very good tire liner and would probably be ineffective against thorns, but it was good enough.
...
4) If the Tuffy liners did not work (so far, so good), I think I would prefer either thicker, "thorn-proof" tubes (which aren't "proof" but are more resistant to puncture), perhaps filled with sealant. However, I am still leery because ...
My mountain biking trip I did last summer in North Dakota was in an area known for thorns (the sharp pointy kind). I used my Nomad Mk II on that trip. I bought one thorn resistant tube which I put on the rear and used a normal tube on the front. Put Slime in both tubes.
One day while stopped to check the map and take a short break, I suddenly heard air rushing out of a tube. And, it was my bike, not my friends bike. Tire went flat in only a couple minutes. It was the thorn resistant tube on the rear wheel. Upon removing the tube from the wheel, I found that tube was not uniformly thick (the thickness of the rubber is what makes it thorn resistant) but the rubber was much thinner adjacent to the valve stem. And the valve stem had separated from the rubber. Since the sealant was coating the portion of the tube where centrifugal force had moved the sealant too, there was insufficient sealant to seal the tube failure at the valve stem/rubber interface where the leak had developed.
My spare tube was not filled with Slime, as I was confident that I would not have any tube failures. So I tried to avoid putting my tires in any places where I might puncture for the rest of the day and was successful. To keep this story reasonably short, I did not put Slime in my rear wheel for the rest of the trip and had no incident.
So, the only tube failure I had was the stupid thorn resistant tube. It is very possible that if I had not invested in that tube, that I might have had no flats at all. I have no plans to ever buy another one.
-
Gorilla tape and glue is very pricey here...
For reference, about USD$15 for a roll 1-7/8in x 35 yards here, so a bit more economical on this side of the Pond. A single roll is good for several wheels, depending on overlap required and re-does.
All the best,
Dan.
-
thanks .. one and all. Good points to consider, and my own (curmudgeonly, old cynical man) perspective, was that this looked like a fun thing to keep one in the circle of bleeding bicycle green (hey it's our righteous duty) but likely too much fuss on a long trip, far from home.
I am however disappointed by all you like thinking old over-experienced, nay-saying buzzards. I wanted not only to be shown wrong, but in fact to be "shown the light". With no sublime new technology, no magic bullet, nothing at all to aspire to - it's just my old, feeble knees that are the motivational problem. Thanks a lot! Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.
-
Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.
Au contraire, Mon Ami!
Remember, my caveats and description above are for a DIY tubeless conversion. The commercial products are pretty much turnkey with rim strips replacing the fussing with tape, working with tires and rims in an engineered Systems approach. Much more successful, infinitely less fuss for the average installer and certainly so in practice.
With everything prepackaged, life is much simpler.
So, you can stimulate the economy in good heart. ;)
All the best,
Dan.
-
Real friends would have lied. Looking right at you Dan, and Andre.
Au contraire, Mon Ami!
+1.
Real friends don't let you waste time and money reinventing square wheels.
-
...
Strange how airline staff still continue to ask for deflation.
Lots of rules against carrying compressed gasses in unapproved containers on aircraft. Especially if the container is not labeled with the type of gas in it. And, I just described an inflated tire.
So, sometimes airline personnel get a little carried away on the rules and I don't argue.
-
Lots of rules against carrying compressed gasses in unapproved containers on aircraft. Especially if the container is not labeled with the type of gas in it. And, I just described an inflated tire.
You also just described me after spicy food. However, in my case the airline rule makes sense, for the safety and comfort of the other passengers. :)
- DaveS
-
This is what one source, with a bit of experience behind it has to say on the topic:
--------------------------
Does it make any sense to deflate tires for transport by air?
This regulation is unfortunately required insistently at many airports. From our point of view it makes little sense.
Pressure compensation in the cargo hold of a passenger plane is standard today. But even in case of a transport in a space without pressure compensation, the change of the inflation pressure at a height of 10000 m / 32800 feet would
be minimal compared to the pressures a tire must withstand in any case. In a completely air-evacuated space, the pressure would be exactly 1 bar higher than under normal atmospheric conditions.
On the other hand, the risk of damage is much greater for tubes or rims when transporting the bicycle with flat tires. For this reason we recommend that you keep the tires inflated during transport by plane. We are, however, also aware of the fact that even convincing arguments will be of little help against the regulations of an airport company.
-------------------------
Lots of good information there: http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/Special
-
But back to the idea of tubeless with respect to long distance touring.
I've noticed about myself that I will spend hours, days, weeks, or whatever it takes twiddling, tweaking, honing, fussing; to get something just perfect - so that I never have to twiddle, tweak or fuss ever again. I'm probably not the only cyclist to take that approach. I don't mind how long it takes, but I want to reach a state that nothing drives me crazy (and that is easy to do) while trying to find zen on the road.
In that way certain elements of tubeless are very appealing. Lower rolling resistance is nice and the belief that the machine is as honed to task as can be, may be a strange placebo - but it works for me. Well, as long as it does not involve skinny tyres and carbon fibre :D
So I'd fuss if Dan's description was necessary and pay if it was not. But then how will life on a long tour, far, far from home be on tubeless? Will it be as rare as a crankset breakdown to be looking at a completely deflated tyre - or is the danger of that, and the prospect of a six hour, or six day walk, likely enough to be a fools experimentation in rolling resistance?
I wonder what a tour on tubeless, done with the best components available right now, would be on a tour through South America, and the same in a completely different environment; say a Tour of England and Scotland or a Tour of the US Southern Tier? The first is a completely different risk/benefit ratio from the other two.
Who would and what kind of tour would you take, sans a butyl tube? I'm intrigued since I want to buy another frame. Something with 700cc or 28 or 27+ at least. And since I'm the kind of guy who gets joy from a perfectly trued wheel and is willing to spend the time to do it, tubeless may be just the thing for me to incorporate into my next "perfect" lightweight American asphalt tourer. Besides, Americans drive a lot of trucks. How hard can it be to get a lift across the country in search of a tyre repair? :D
-
If it ain't bust don't fix it! Tubes glue and patches for me. They have worked well for me so far and I do not see any reason for them not continuing to do so. If you are going to carry a spare tube for that moment when your tubeless system fails, then you will not also need glue and patches to repair it. It kind of defeats the whole tubeless argument for me. Tubeless on a long distance tour, a split side wall with gunk oozing out onto dusty sandy off road trail, I don't think so, that just complicate matters. Sealant in the tubes? maybe.
I am sure that tubeless works well for commuters, who will no doubt be pressed for time to clock in at work, it will get them there and possibly home too. Bicycle tubeless technology will develop beyond what we have now and until sealant is as widespread as coca cola is, in every one horse outpost in the known universe, we will have to rely on the old school method of tubes glue and patches, they still work ;)
Andy
-
At the Schwalbe link under tubeless: http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tubeless
For reasons I do not understand, on my computer I had to look under the topic of "What to do in case of a puncture?" to see the topic of: "How often do I have to refill or replace the sealing liquid?"
Answer: Renew the sealant every two to seven months. If I had to put in new sealant every year when during a typical year I ride four or five different bikes, that is four or five times a year at a minimum I have to work on two tires per bike, or eight to ten tires. And that is if I am lucky and only have to deal with sealant once a year per wheel.
I typically get about one flat a year. (Which actually occurred this past Thursday, tire was low when I got home, but it was still rideable so did not change the tube on the road.)
Thus in a typical year, that is one flat I have to repair. Or, I could spend a lot of time doing sealant in lots of wheels.
I will stick with tubes.
I did not get into the topic of changing tires for other reasons, such as switching to studded tires on one bike in the fall and reverting back to normal tires in spring, or putting different tires on for a tour. But that has to be done whether I have tubes or not. I suspect that tubes makes it easier and cleaner than dealing with some sealant when I want to switch tires.
A side note: Several friends of mine did the Southern Tier a year ago (cross the USA on a southern route). One of them used his skinny tire race bike, he had up to seven flats per day in the southwest part of the country where thorns are common. If I was looking at that many flats, I might be convinced otherwise. But one of the others commented later he was glad he used his touring bike instead of a skinny tire bike, only had a total of four flats for the entire trip.
I did comment above that one friend of mine likes tubeless for mountain biking. But I think he uses tubes for road riding. I am not sure if the pinch flats or thorns or both is the reason for liking tubeless for mountain biking.
-
...Renew the sealant every two to seven months.
At this rate, the DIY job I did for my friend is just about due to start leaking unless the goo is renewed.
Best,
Dan.
-
This tubeless stuff came to my attention when I read the update to the Thorn "mega" bro-sure. Andy seemed to on the cusp of some serious enthusiasm about the tech ... but what you all have written is very convincing. Simple is best, I guess, for leisurely long distance riding, like we Thorn masters like to do. So that's about it for me and tubeless. Perhaps one day the technology will evolve up to the standards of Car tires, with no slime in the tire? I'll re-visit, then.
:)
-
So that's about it for me and tubeless. Perhaps one day the technology will evolve up to the standards of Car tires, with no slime in the tire? I'll re-visit, then.
You may have to be extremely patient.
I seem to remember that the handbook for my Maserati 3500, which ran on Borrani wire wheels*, admonished me not to use tubeless tyres. Certainly, when I was designing nostalgicars, all the handful of available wire wheel manufacturers specifically withdrew their warranty for fitting tubeless tyres.
*For the Americans, I mean real wire wheels, built like a bicycle wheel but of heavier gauge materials, not those "wire wheel trims" that are basically just kitsch hubcaps which had a vogue on American cars back in the days when they were the size of tugboats, and wallowed like it too.
PS Of course, nothing is impossible. We can all remember when bicycle lamps used heavy batteries merely to create a glimmer for car drivers to spot, yet now bicycle lamps can be dynamo-driven to produce car-like illumination, because of the advance of the LED and, to a much lesser extent, the optics. There is no fundamental engineering reason I know of that a bicycle spoke should not make a permanently airtight mechanical seal in the rim. The current reasons for the kludge of tape and slime and whatnot are all to do with cyclists' attitude to weight and, less and less important, cost. I think that what will defeat tubeless is not engineering difficulties or cost but weight: tubeless will never be much chop on road bikes (unless mandated by the UCI, which won't happen because the UCI is a luddite body, not at all interest in the advancement of bicycle design).
-
I see support products like home floor-type pumps are catching up to tubeless needs. Topeak has engineered a new (and expensive version) of their Joe Blow series to store a liter of air at high pressure (11bar/160psi) to better seat tubeless tires:
http://topeak.com/products/Pumps/joeblow_booster
Hmm. One wonders how rims would fare with wide tires even briefly overpressurized to seat the beads. Would there be a greater incidence of rim cracking as a result of increased lateral bead-jacking forces on the rim sidewalls? How much would 1l of highly pressurized air affect overall chamber pressure?
Pondering,
Dan.
-
And at some point, we can all be sure that someone will be over-eager and we shall read the tale of the newly deaf, exploded cyclist. How fast can a fragment of wheel be propelled, I wonder? :D
-
I see support products like home floor-type pumps are catching up to tubeless needs. Topeak has engineered a new (and expensive version) of their Joe Blow series to store a liter of air at high pressure (11bar/160psi) to better seat tubeless tires:
http://topeak.com/products/Pumps/joeblow_booster
Hmm. One wonders how rims would fare with wide tires even briefly overpressurized to seat the beads. Would there be a greater incidence of rim cracking as a result of increased lateral bead-jacking forces on the rim sidewalls? How much would 1l of highly pressurized air affect overall chamber pressure?
Pondering,
Dan.
One liter won't go very far in a fat tire. Lets say tire diameter 27 inches (I picked a number between 26 and 29), that correlates to a tire circumference of 85 inches, if width of tire air space is 2.0 inches and if that is circular in cross section, that becomes a volume of roughly 267 cubic inches for the tire, or 4.35 liters. Add the one liter reservoir to that volume (1 + 4.35 = 5.35 liters) and your liter of 160 psi air drops to 30 psi gauge pressure when put into the tire.
If any rims crack, I expect that in many cases nobody will notice until later when the crack opens up on the trail somewhere. And at that point nobody will put two and two together to think about rim strength during initial pressurization.
As a wheel turns with weight on it, the rim is continuously deformed slightly, I would expect that continual deformation to extend any cracks that are initially created. That is why I think the rim would fail later, not initially when put under pressure.
I only have talked to one person that cracked and blew a rim, a neighbor that commutes to his bicycle mechanic job on his bike and he said that he could feel his wheel acting a bit odd while he rode his bike before it blew. In his case I think the cause was worn out braking surface.
Putting high pressure in a small air tank is not easy. I have a small air horn for my kayak that has a small tank with a shrader valve, it is hard work to put high pressure air in that tank and it holds less than a liter.
-
I think there are a few myths that need dispelling about tubeless.
- If you use a proper Tubeless ready rim, inflating is usually really easy, a few jabs with a track-pump its all thats needed, a garage airline, or Co2 canister for a really tough one. Even with the stans strips i've managed in 8/10 cases to infalte with a normal track pump.
- The sealant isn't anything like slime, its not free floating about in the tyre, it coats the inside of the tyre and forms a film on the inside of the tyre. It's really amazing stuff, checkout youtube for chaps riding across beds of nails, we've tried this it really does work!
- If all else fails a normal tube can be fitted, this really is worth remembering, you will never be in a worse position than anyone with a normal tyre setup if the tyre fails.
- Its been around in MTB bikes for years, its proven technology and really does work.
I'd never have a bike without it now and haven't for about 5yrs.
-
I think there are a few myths that need dispelling about tubeless.
- If all else fails a normal tube can be fitted, this really is worth remembering, you will never be in a worse position than anyone with a normal tyre setup if the tyre fails.
sorry to contradict
you are in a worse position
the tubeless tyres i used were wafer thin with no puncture protection (rely on sealant instead of kevlar)
and with normal tubes in they flatted in a few miles, swapped out the tubeless tyres for continental travel contacts and the puncture demons disappeared, btw it was a long time ago around 2004/6 Klein Attitude xv with Bontrager tubeless tyres and Racelite tubeless ready rims, the tyres were factory fitted with tubes, came supplied with the proper valves in a plastic bag
they might be ok for a short xc race where weight and rotational mass count but day to day cycling, i wouldn't try it again
i never went tubeles in the end as getting fllats in tubes meant i had no back up if a tyre failed with a hole bigger than the sealant could cope with
i suppose i could of carried spare tubes filled with slime but it never really seemed worth all the extra effort
-
Well, maybe ... I'll wait and see. For the moment & for my purposes, tubelessness looks like a solution in search of a problem.
This isn't a quibble about the idea itself, nor its established applications: I used tubeless tires on Hans, my airhead, for nearly a decade, with no problem, and I've had good luck (i.e., no flats) with much longer experience on several cars across several countries.
Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but I've never had enough problems with puncture flats in bike tires to yearn for tubeless tires. The problems I have had--sidewall cuts--would not have been aided or avoided with tubeless tires.
-
I think there are a few myths that need dispelling about tubeless.
...
- The sealant isn't anything like slime, ...
I am aware of two brands of tire sealant, Stans (which I have read about but never used) and Slime. (I would not be surprised if there were other brands that are sold globally, but not in USA where I live.)
I actually accidentally bought Slime Tire Sealant instead of Slime Tube Sealant that I wanted to buy before my North Dakota trip, thus I had to go back to the store to get the right sealant.
http://www.slime.com/us/products/auto/sealants/tire-sealant.php
http://www.slime.com/us/products/bike/sealants/tube-sealant.php
When I talked about Slime in my previous posts, the Slime brand tire or tube sealant is what I was referring to.
Thus, I am a bit confused when Dave says the sealant is nothing like Slime when Slime is a brand of sealant.
-
I think Dave explained away the confusion when he elaborated that the difference between regular tube tire sealants (regardless of brand name) and the new tubeless sealant is that the new one does not stay in liquid form, that it coats, dries to a dry latex form (my understanding) and is then a thin layer which when exposed to air on the tyre rubber side, via a puncture - it instantly reacts and seals punctures.
That is my take, for what it's worth (normally about 3 cents, sometimes pesos)
With Dave's added input, I'm quite enthusiastic again. That description changes much of what I think we all have understood the state of the tubeless art to be at. Coupled with Andy's enthusiasm, perhaps it bears investigating.
I also feel that it is not a solution looking for a problem. Some changes are/were, such as Ahead Stems, the long ago now removal of brazed fittings for derailleurs (anyone else remember that bit of progress?) and 11 gears at the back completely killing 10 speed or 14 speed setups.
But the object here is about a comfortable ride such as that given to us right now via moving from 28mm to 40mm or wider tires. I'm sold on the comfort of wide tires. I'm not sold on the added unsprung weight. Both characteristics are notable.
The way I understand the rolling resistance and weight advantage of this technology is that it is the best of both worlds. The comfort of a 44mm tire weight and centripetal mass of a 28mm. Am I right Dave, or missing the usual bit? If that is the case I may build my next bike around this new tech. I want a tourer that is lighter than the Nomad, because the Nomad is meant for loads higher than the 35-40 pounds I carry and for rough roads such as don't exist on a tramac tour like some of those available to me in North Carolina or across country routes such as the Southern or Northern tier (which I'm contemplating)
I'd like a larger wheel for its gyroscopic effect, but don't want the rubber weight penalty. For that limited criteria (my world) it seems worth the gamble. Not much to cut my sidewalls on my roads and if it should happen that would mean a few days wait, holled up at a air-conditioned hotel, drinking beer - hey what can I do! Then back on the easy rolling tarmac.
I've got handbuilt 700cc wheels and all the parts to build a bike such as a Club Tour, Velo-Orange Campeur or other similar such. The wheels are from longleaf here on the East Coast, USA. (http://www.longleafbicycles.com) they are the best built wheels I've had in ~ 35 years as a semi enthusiast cyclists. Peerless. That is about all that gives me pause in trying the tubeless experience. The cost of the new stuff, while staring at sublime old tech wheels in guilt. Any ideas about the costs involved for a good middle weight setup? Not being bound to special pumps puts this in the "may do" category for me.
My Nomad is an indestructible beast. As set up it is ~ 42 pounds. On road USA style touring made me see that I had about 16 pounds of extra weight in bicycle than I needed, next to the typical cyclists I'd meet. I'll save the "beast" for its intended domain should I ever do the continental divide, Mongolia or Peru (I wish) Could one get a club Tour with racks set for about 35 pounds, with tubeless 28mm tyres into the 24 -26 pound range? Any ideas? Am I over-extimating the role/roll of tubeless towards a lightweight but comfortable tarmac tourer? Dave .... is there a secret "skunk-works" project bike at thorn with 650B tubeless tyres? Please. We won't tell anyone. :)
-
I should have investigated before posting. It seems that the tubeless sealants also stay in a liquid state. (http://www.slime.com/us/products/bike/sealants/tubeless-sealant.php). So what is the difference between Tube sealant and Tubeless sealant. Anyone?
-
Hi Pavel!
I really do hope you'll try going tubeless. It would be nice to get a first-hand report from you on how it works and how you like it. Very useful for all to follow. Especially having played with a homegrown version, I'd be especially interested to hear how a commercial version does in your hands.
All the best,
Dan.
-
I also feel that it is not a solution looking for a problem. Some changes are/were, such as Ahead Stems, the long ago now removal of brazed fittings for derailleurs (anyone else remember that bit of progress?) and 11 gears at the back completely killing 10 speed or 14 speed setups.
Hi Pavel can i borrow your rose tinted glasses please?
ahead stems hardly rocket science or much on an improvement over quills, some numpty always cuts the steerer to short and the next owner needs a steerer extender, and the best steerer extenders are internal quill ones lol
long ago removal of braze on dérailleur fittings? front or rear? seen both on very modern bikes
14 gears your bitching about 14 gears lmao bet you have a Rohloff with it's 11/34 and 22/36 gear range
still fools and their money are soon parted by the next big thing/new tech/extra gears with less range/tubeless tyres lol
atb Bill
-
It's about the fifth thing on my minor itch list, Dan. It will be a while but I do hope to get around to it after the proper time of obsessive reading. :)
First on my list is a tour of some sort. I'm going on a shake down motorcycle tour tomorrow for a few days in the mountains of NC. Strangely a motorcycle can be far more difficult to pack up and organise than a bicycle. There is less volume and I guess I'm more versed in bike packing. So my first choice, to be made this year is what sort of two wheeled journeying is ahead of me. Before I can do that I need to take a long trip on this motorcycle of Bianca's and ten do do at least a long trip or two by bicycle again. I have to find how my health has impacted my vistas.
But somehow I hope the bicycle wins. I don't know why. More involving? More personal satisfaction? More pain? :D
Wrenching a motorcycle is so much more a pain, and so much more costly. But with the right motorcycle I can achieve what I think I'm looking for most. A slow meander to see the land, here in America, at low cost and with much relaxation and Zen.
So ... in summation ... perhaps it should be you ... the more rigorous and scientific tester. :) Anyone else nominate Dan to do the right "Thorn" thing? Do I hear any "eyes" ;) (and how come SJS is not sponsoring you yet? Seriously!)
-
I also feel that it is not a solution looking for a problem. Some changes are/were, such as Ahead Stems, the long ago now removal of brazed fittings for derailleurs (anyone else remember that bit of progress?) and 11 gears at the back completely killing 10 speed or 14 speed setups.
Hi Pavel can i borrow your rose tinted glasses please?
ahead stems hardly rocket science or much on an improvement over quills, some numpty always cuts the steerer to short and the next owner needs a steerer extender, and the best steerer extenders are internal quill ones lol
long ago removal of braze on dérailleur fittings? front or rear? seen both on very modern bikes
14 gears your bitching about 14 gears lmao bet you have a Rohloff with it's 11/34 and 22/36 gear range
still fools and their money are soon parted by the next big thing/new tech/extra gears with less range/tubeless tyres lol
atb Bill
I hear ya. And I agree with your line of thinking at the same time as with the very opposite way, at the same time.
I all earnestness, my Rose tinted glasses, of which I've several pairs - have been priceless. They have infused my life with a silly optimism, reality be damned, that has been the gravy of my recent years. And we don't get to take the money with us, if reports are right. :)
-
...So what is the difference between Tube sealant and Tubeless sealant. Anyone?
It is the size of the particles in the sealant. I pasted the following from this link: http://www.slime.com/us/faq.php
Can I use Slime Tire Sealant in a tire with an inner tube?
This formula has large particles that may not seal smaller punctures that occur on an inner tube. We do not recommend or guarantee performance of the product in this application.
Can I use Slime Tube Sealant in a Tubeless Tire?
No. This formula does not contain the rust and corrosion inhibitors necessary to protect a wheel. We do not recommend or guarantee performance of the product in this application.
***
I have not used Stans, thus have no knowledge of how that works, I have only used Slime brand.
A friend of mine told me that tubes with Slime in them are very hard to get a tube patch to stick, he prefers Stans for that reason.
I bought Slime because it is aqueous based, water can be used for cleanup. And I have not read of any clumping problems. Apparently Stans can clump according to comments I have seen on other forums.
-
So ... in summation ... perhaps it should be you ... the more rigorous and scientific tester. :) Anyone else nominate Dan to do the right "Thorn" thing? Do I hear any "eyes"
I'd be only too happy to do the test if someone foots the bill. (and how come SJS is not sponsoring you yet? Seriously!)
I don't know, but wish they would! :D
All the best,
Dan.
-
some interesting reading material here
no set standard seems to exist and according to this you need to stay with one tubeless system
part one http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/01/14/why-isnt-road-tubeless-popular-part-1-how-did-we-get-here/ (http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/01/14/why-isnt-road-tubeless-popular-part-1-how-did-we-get-here/)
part two http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/01/29/why-isnt-road-tubeless-more-popular-part-two-current-options-challenges-whats-coming-down-the-road/ (http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/01/29/why-isnt-road-tubeless-more-popular-part-two-current-options-challenges-whats-coming-down-the-road/)
like i said earlier it just seemed to much hassle, i'll say one thing though getting continental contacts 26/1.75 on and off Bontrager racelite rims was a bitch of a job, broke two tyre levers and got stranded miles from home and had to walk to the LBS and get them to fix it, felt a right fool >:(
I bought steel tyre levers and it was still hard work, the rims not having the deep well of standard rims makes tyre fitting a pain of a job, well on both sports contacts and travel contacts that i used on the wheels
-
Tubeless is essential in heavily infested goathead territory and is useful everywhere for DAY-RIDERS on fat-tire bicycles (MTBs and touring bikes with wide tires). If you are long-distance touring in remote desert areas, like me, it is a different story, because you will likely be carrying a tiny pump, and even if you are carrying a large primary pump, your spare pump (you are carrying a spare pump, i hope, if you go in remote areas) will be tiny.
[Post edited by Admin. to remove potentially libelous statement about one brand of sealant, made in violation of Thorn Forum Guidelines, posted here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=26.msg6285#msg6285 -- Dan, Thorn Cycling Forum Administrator]
I once experienced a huge puncture with Stans which sprayed the sealant all over the inside of the rim. Washed off easily with a few squirts from my water bottle. I also experienced a tube of Stans leaking at the bottom of my pannier (I now store in the saddle bag). More of a problem to wash off, since it had dried by the time I noticed it, but no major problem. So forget this idea that sealants create a big mess.
Sealants do dry up after a few months, but the dry residue weighs like 5 grams. Not enough to unbalance the tire.
Dan's description of the process involved with prepping a rim for tubeless are needlessly complicated. Get the proper prep kit from Stans, along with the proper and much simpler instructions at Stans website.
Tire liners are a very dumb idea. Heavier than sealant, they WILL eventually destroy your inner tubes, a nuisance to install. Worst of all, they do NOT fully protect from goatheads. Rather, they convert easy to find punctures into slow leaks that are impossible to find without a bucket of water to dunk the inner tube in and look for bubbles. And who has a bucket of water when touring in the middle of nowhere? People who say tire liners saved them from punctures are like people living in London, let's say, who insist that their magic talisman has saved them from being run over by herds of stampeding elephants. Correlation does not prove causation. Punctures are rare if you are using good tires (better Schwalbe tires already contain a kelvar tire liner) and avoid problemmatic areas (infested with goatheads, which are only present in disturbed ground, littered with broken glass and pieces of tiny wire from disintegrated truck tires, etc).
I have a webpage on the subject of protection from goatheads, which also addresses sealants and tubeless and similar topics in more details, including photos: http://www.frankrevelo.com/hiking/biking_flatprevention.htm (http://www.frankrevelo.com/hiking/biking_flatprevention.htm).