Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: freddered on July 17, 2012, 06:25:39 pm
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I'm thinking of making my next rear wheel a Rigida Andra CSS.
Reasoning -
It's drilled specifically for Rohloff's large flange (and I've broken a couple of spokes on rims that force a kink at the spoke nipple. It can not be good for something under such a load to be kinked).
They last for years. This means I won't need so many wheel builds after cruddy winter riding. I haven't heard of one showing signs of wear yet, never mind wearing out.
Negatives -
Heavy. OK, it's a heavy bike anyway and usually carrying heavy things but adding weight will not make it any lighter.
Expensive. Not if it lasts as long as I expect. Even the Brake blocks don't cost much more than other top brands. Swissstop are expensive anyway.
Potentially that's it. It's a heavy and tough bike so it seems to match perfectly.
What is the opinion of the Forumites?
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Hi Fred,
I haven't owned a pair of CSS rims, so this is my own analysis based on my observations and needs; happy to be corrected if wrong...
= From what I can tell, the CSS treatment adds little if any significant weight compared to an untreated rim of the same type (i.e. CSS vs non-CSS Rigida Andras).
= If one gets the pads intended for them, the cost difference in pads is pretty negligible due to increased service life.
= There have been some reports of CSS failure, and the modality is usually extremely poor wet-weather stopping. I dunno the causality; perhaps the rim sides finally get "polished" by the brake blocks to the point where they imitate a chrome-plated steel rim. Anyway, I have seen such reports, including in posts on this Forum. I am pressed for time at the moment, but will see if I can find them for you. Bottom line: The CSS is proving to be reliable and extremely long-lived for most users. I haven't penciled it out, but I believe the cost would be worth it if one often rides in wet, gritty conditions and/or on hills. If the majority of one's riding is in dry conditions or the flats, then it might not pay. I believe it is fair to say the CSS treatment makes the rims essentially maintenance free for a very long time. I usually clean the braking track of my plain-alloy rims annually with regular use.
= A cost-effective way of going this route would be to replace the most-used rim or the one that sees the heaviest braking. I have considered going this route. Here in the States where we drive/ride of the right of the centerline, I need my left arm free to signal turns. That means my right hand controls the rear brake. The back brake is less effective than the front due to weight transfer, but it is also less likely to cause me harm if I lock it up with only one hand holding the 'bars. Therefore, the rear rim sees a lot of use -- light use -- getting feathered to a stop as I approach a stop sign or traffic light. Practically all my intended stopping and speed modulation is done on the front wheel, thanks to the better stopping it provides. It therefore sees the most wear. If I were to replace only one rim with a CSS, it would be at the front. Rear rims last me practically forever.
The same idea would apply if you use your rear brake for the majority of your stopping needs, so yes, your strategy of replacing only the rear sounds good to me. The front wheel could continue to use a conventional rim/pad combo as before.
This is a strategy to consider if a pair is just too expensive at present.
And, finally, my comments apply only to what I've read about Rigida's proprietary CSS (Ceramic-based SuperSonic application) method. The kind employed by Mavic and others is different in application and result, with more frequent reports of cracking and flaking and with different rates of wear.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
EDIT: Ah! Here is a quick link to a discussion that might have relevance wrt potential downsides for CSS: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2680.0 Perhaps their practical service life could be extended with a change of pad type/brand. Use the Forum Search function to check for more. I have posted some tips to getting just what you seek from Forum searches here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4390.0
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Hi Fred
I am at an early stage of experimenting with Grizzly CSS rims and the immediately obvious benefits are:
-the total lack of black filth that covers everything if you ride down many hills in the rain. (Schwalbe reflective sidewall strips are now effective in winter).
-the much improved adjustment intervals of V brakes, due to far lower pad wear rates.
-cost effective pads. Twice the price of Shimano but easily twice the life and lots more to come. Cheaper than disc pads too.
-less weight penalty and simpler than a disc brake.
-work better than normal rim brakes in really muddy/gritty conditions. A couple of light strokes clean the rim quickly without grooving it or embedding debris into the pad. (As it says in the Thorn brochures the squealing when new is soon cured by this sort of running in).
I have high hopes that they will soon prove to be cost effective overall. The rims will certainly need less frequent replacement which should give huge savings particularly if you pay for wheel builds and have to cough up for new spokes every time as well.
I think the true benefit of CSS treatment is missed if you use the heavier rims though:
Most 500 gram 26" rims are structurally strong and rigid enough unless they are being really hammered on rough terrain with high loads.
The only other function of the extra 200g or so on Andras is to give them thicker extrusion sections in the braking area, thus allowing more metal to be worn off by the brakes before they fail (Hobnail boot design philosophy).
CSS means less rim material loss to braking so why not design it out and save the weight where it counts most. The Grizzly does this.
What suprises me is that this approach is not applied to lighter (circa 425g) rim sections like the DT Swiss Thorn offer on the RST, in order to give increased practicality with the performance gain.
As for wet weather performance, so far they can have a bit of lag a bit like early undrilled motorcycle discs exhibited but you can do a bit of light braking to dry them without having to watch the brake blocks disappear before your eyes. It will be interesting to see what happens when the brake tracks get a shine to them.
I hope this is useful
Ian
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What surprises me is that this approach is not applied to lighter (circa 425g) rim sections like the DT Swiss Thorn offer on the RST, in order to give increased practicality with the performance gain.
The DT Swiss XR 440 MTB is a ceramic rim which I considered putting on my RST, but as I don't do a lot of hilly riding or carry heavy loads I stuck with the XR 350's. Depending on how long these last however their replacements may well be ceramic rims of the lighter variety.
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Fred,
my first Thorn had Sun Rhyno rims, my second Rigida Andra CSS.
The Andra are looking like a superb replacement for heavy duty use.
I found the braking with CSS Blue SwissStop pads incredibly good in the dry to very poor in heavy rain.
I changed to CSS Black KoolStop which have a more even performance for me.
I was just checking my spares box recently and found I still have a new pair of cartridge Blue SwissStop pads which I will not be using - bought them in when the bike was new.
They are yours for £6 posted if you want them, I will put them on the for sale area if you don't want them.
Julian.
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10,000kms ridden on the Andra 30 CSS rims in the past 18 months and they're going great. Ideal sort of rim for an expedition touring bike (26") that I expect to take on some pretty rough roads and tracks. The weight penalty is pretty marginal, I ride just as quick as with Mavic XM719. The rims look virtually untouched. Braking is very good with the Swisstop pads and their cost is disappearing all the time, unlike the pads. They are a bit too light on the braking power in wet rainy conditions and I'm a little wary about this. Sometime I will switch to the Koolstop green pads that are also suited to carbide rims - they might give better wet braking I hope.
The cleanliness and absence of braking dust all over the tyres is a surprise bonus feature.
In the value stakes I'm expecting these rims to last 60% - 100% longer than normal alloy rims of similar beefiness do. Hoping to get 8-10 years of use.
Oh and Dan CSS stands for carbide supersonic treatment. Ceramic is a different rim altogether ;)
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I think I'm sold on the idea. Thanks for your feedback.
As for poor wet-weather braking I will still be using a standard rim on the front. I'll fit Koolstop Salmon pads to the front to compensate for any loss of braking power at the back.
My current wheel has plenty of life left in it so I won't be replacing it just yet. However, I really don't like the angle that the spokes emerge from the rear rim and would prefer a rim drilled for Rohloff.
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Fred,
on the wheel that suffered the spoke breakages, was there by any chance just the tiniest little bit of spoke thread showing below the nipples? (ie wheel built with spoke lengths rounded down).
Curious
Ian
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Fred,
I'm with Ian in wondering if any spoke threads might have been exposed past the nipples. Threads are small stress-risers if exposed and unsupported by the nipple, and can increase the chance for breakage, especally if also subjected to angular stresses on the way to the hub.
I don't know if this will help for future reference, but it used to be standard practice for wheel builders to use an awl or similar tool to gently shape (bend, form) the spoke seats (i.e. the steel rim ferrules) to the angle of departure for each spoke. I've done this where appropriate on wheels I've built, and with good results (sometimes the ferrules aren't clinched completely or very well). Done with care, the rims showed no signs of weakening (the angles are prettly slight) and the angle of departure at the nipple was brought into alignment with the spoke shaft, much as the Rohloff-drilled Rigidas accomplish by design. It might be a thought if at some point you ever wish to lace-up a non-Rohloff-specific rim.
Your plan sounds really sound, and I'm looking forward to hearing how it all works out for you (and any pics of it you might post). My guess? It will likely work so well, you'll eventually add a CSS front wheel to match the rear.
Best,
Dan. (who thanks Pete for the CSS correction. What was I thinking? ;) )
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My current wheel has plenty of life left in it so I won't be replacing it just yet. However, I really don't like the angle that the spokes emerge from the rear rim and would prefer a rim drilled for Rohloff.
Have you considered a Rohloff-specific non-CSS version of Andra? http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rigida-andra-30-26-%28559%29-mtb-rim-black-32-hole-rohloff-drilling-prod13565/
This would address your main concern and also alleviate the wet-weather breaking issues mentioned above. I was thinking to get Andra CSS rims when my Rhynos wear out. Now I have second thoughts though, as CSS rims they may not be ideal for wet-weather moderate mileage riding.
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Kuba does make a good point about superb braking on a (relative) budget; the non-CSS Rigida Andras on my Sherpa -- equipped with Kool-Stop salmon pads -- gave me some of the best braking I have *ever* enjoyed on a touring bike. As good as the same pads with Mavic MA-2 rims on one of my other bikes. Just outstanding, and supposedly long-lived, given the thick sidewalls.
Of course, they do have the usual un-treated alloy rim concerns of (comparatively more) rapid wear and the black oxide-laden spray coming off them as any other. A bit cheaper, though, and yes, more long-lived than some competitors provided one uses rim-friendly pads.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan. Another thing is that with £30 price difference per rim, an investment in XTR brakes instead actually becomes almost economical. I have XTRs on my Raven and coupled with KoolStop pads I find that they do save the rims (and pads!) while also giving superb stopping power (on 25% gradient, with full camping kit, the forks struggled slightly but the brakes did not). Given what Dan says about non-CSS Andras, I would go for CSS only if going on an extended tour, six months plus.
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Personally I value long rim life, whether riding around the world or riding to work :)
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Well, that's down to personal circumstances then. I regularly commute on a cheapo Trek hybrid and only ride the Raven when out on a tour. It occurred to me before than I should use the Raven for my commute also but then I work in Bristol so the cheaper the rims, and the more knackered the bike, the higher the chance I won't have to walk back home! On the other hand my Trek is falling apart so started thinking again about commuting on the Thorn, which is great for purpose and insured anyway. Oh choices ???
Anyway - I only covered 3500K on the Raven in the first year and therefore would go for non-CSS. If I planned to cover 2-3 times that, I'd be leaning towards CSS.
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One Andra 26 inch rim is 195!!!!! grammes heavier than a grizzly (which ain't superlight). One rim!!!! :o
If Fred rides hilly Audaxes with lots of stop start, hills, wind, traffic, junctions and groups changing pace and he can do it on rims this heavy then he'll be fit to run marathons in diving boots or drag sledges with Ran Fiennes.
About 40% more rotational inertia from the rims? (Cue posts from disgusted physicists) ;D
Old roadie talk I know, but if ever there was a place not to add 390g to a bicycle this is it ;D
Cheers
Ian
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I saw & heard about a remarkable number of broken spokes among the 500 riders on the recent Erie Canal ride. The slowly increasing number of dents on the rims of my old Trek 520 was another factor that pushed me into buying a new beefier bike. Of course it always a matter of balancing the pro and the con. Anyway I liked riding my Andra 30s over all the bumps on the old canal tow path without any worries!
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Ah but! Jim...
it is the big(ger?) tyres at suitable pressures that are helping you here, not the rims.
Spokes generally break from fatigue due to insufficient tension in the wheelbuild. The machine built wheels that come with most bikes usually lack that last little important and hard to add bit of it.
But: the great thing about it all is that it's your bike and you can do what the hell you like with it ;) and like Nietzsche said "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger".
Have fun
Ian
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it is the big(ger?) tyres at suitable pressures that are helping you here, not the rims.
Yes, my riding partner had no trouble and he was riding a bottom-of-the-line Jamis hardtail mountain bike. We both had Schwalbe Marathon Dureme 26x2 tires, 50 psi in the back and 45 psi in the front, or a bit less on the days we didn't use the pump!
Theoretically I suppose anybody spending all that money on a Thorn Nomad ought to be mighty smart about bikes, to be sure the money is well spent. Ha! OK, my first on-the-books job was repairing bikes in a bike shop around 1971. Mostly fixing flats. But I know remarkably little about bikes! I just looked around and it seemed like Thorn makes good bikes and my theory is that by spending all that money I can get a good bike without having to be an expert! Of course this is a very risky strategy! It sets me up to be a classic sucker! But I hope not to remain ignorant too long! So my Nomad lets me become a stronger rider and a smarter rider. Ha! And there is no money left so it darned well had better do whatever I need it to do!
Rims!
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One Andra 26 inch rim is 195!!!!! grammes heavier than a grizzly (which ain't superlight). One rim!!!! :o
Ever considered running the oft-recommended Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres? One Marathon Plus is ~400g heavier than the same-size Vittoria Randonneur Cross tyre that I run. Marathon Plus are rated pretty-puncture-proof but I've not had a single puncture in over 22,000kms of riding with the Randonneur Cross (not for the want of trying either).
So I'm not sure really what the concern is about rim weights ;D
There is a significant difference in the respective strength and lifespan for the Andra versus the Grizzly.
Andra
(http://www.bikestation.fi/shop/images/medium/rigida/rigida_andra_30_black_CSS_MED.jpg)
Grizzly
(http://cnc-bike.de/images/rigida_grizzly_css.jpg)
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Jim, poverty often helps with those tricky specification dilemas and engineering compromises I find :)
Pete I would rather put a Bindi up my backside than ride a Marathon Plus ;D
What this case needs is a contextual element and circumstantial evidence m'lud.
Eurofop roadie riding: Grizzly roar up the hills. Andra overengineered, rider underengineered and overstressed.
Bushwhacker bag hauling: Grizzly bear bum. Andra bonza!
Andra, the rim that gives weight to your argument ::)
Ian
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...poverty often helps with those tricky specification dilemas and engineering compromises I find...
Too true, me too!
Andra 'nother thing...
Ian, I have no Grizzlys in my immediate area, but will happily supply as many black- and brown bears as you can manage.
:D
Andra, the rim that gives weight to your argument
;D You're on a roll, Man!
All the best,
Dan. (who is enjoying this thoroughly)
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RST with Rohloff.
My Zac 19 rims have stayed true as a die, but the sidewalls (especially the rear) are getting concave after a fairly low mileage, albeit in often gritty conditions :'(.
St. John's are re-rimming them with Grizzly CSS and supplying some Swisstop blue pads - watch this space! :)
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Sometime I will switch to the Koolstop green pads that are also suited to carbide rims - they might give better wet braking I hope.
Did you ever try this? and any chance of a link to these pads. I've tried green magura pads on CSS rims that seem to work a bit better in the wet but look as though they would wear down fast. I think the green Magura blocks use a Koolstop compound but do Koolstop do another green copound for CSS rims? the Koolstop CSS pads I have are black.
Thanks
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Swisstop blue are still running very nicely thanks.... after 14,000kms ;D The Koolstop greens sit in my tool/spares kit for the occasion when the Swisstops scrub out.
SJS sell the Koolstop greens for Rigida CSS (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/koolstop-koolstop-v-brake-block-inserts-for-rigida-carbide-rims-prod19778/). ;)
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SJS sell the Koolstop greens for Rigida CSS (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/koolstop-koolstop-v-brake-block-inserts-for-rigida-carbide-rims-prod19778/). ;)
Don't look very green in the picture, more like black. From what I can tell Koolstop do an olive compound for ceramic rims and a black one for CSS rims. Are the koolstop pads you use on CSS rims definatley green?
Thanks
Ewan
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Nice rims, though the joints on them can be dodgy. If I remember correctly I think the latest batch SJS got of these had addressed that issue.
I am still on original swissstop blue's after > 10,000km, commuting with lots of braking. Rims look unblemished, pads look very thin but they were when new. I dont think they've worn much at all.
Love the cleanliness of the rims. Braking in dry is very good (low-end shimano V-brakes with tekro drop bar levers). Braking in the wet is very poor, I've learned to ride accordingly.
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Nice rims, though the joints on them can be dodgy. If I remember correctly I think the latest batch SJS got of these had addressed that issue.
I am still on original swissstop blue's after > 10,000km, commuting with lots of braking. Rims look unblemished, pads look very thin but they were when new. I dont think they've worn much at all.
Love the cleanliness of the rims. Braking in dry is very good (low-end shimano V-brakes with tekro drop bar levers). Braking in the wet is very poor, I've learned to ride accordingly.
That's spooky. I was just giving my Raven a second clean ( see Dan, I do take heed ) and as I was dusting down the rims I noticed a joint in the rim. I didn't have time to examine it properly out but remember thinking I would check it out later and see if I had one on the other wheel. I guess I do?
Do all tires have them? And what made them dodgy?
Thanks
Matt
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I was just giving my Raven a second clean ( see Dan, I do take heed )
:D What have I done?
Matt, all rims have joints (or "joins"), though some are welded and the joint has been ground and finished in such a way as to be nearly invisible unless you look into the rim well with the tire, tube, and rim-strip removed. Rims are formed (bent) from straight sections of extruded aluminum, then joined at the ends so they form a hoop. Often, rims are not welded, but instead use pins (in each sidewall) or a slug (in the center) that is either an interference fit or held in place by the spoke ferrules. Spoke tension draws the ends together, helping close the joint and make it secure.
Usually, when rims have joint problems, the rim "ends" are offset or not quite jointed completely together, making for a little bump that is found by the brake pads; extremely annoying when one applies the brakes and hears/feels "thup-thup-thup".
Best,
Dan.
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Yes, thats what I mean by dodgy.
Usually, when rims have joint problems, the rim "ends" are offset or not quite jointed completely together, making for a little bump that is found by the brake pads; extremely annoying when one applies the brakes and hears/feels "thup-thup-thup".
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Don't look very green in the picture, more like black. From what I can tell Koolstop do an olive compound for ceramic rims and a black one for CSS rims. Are the koolstop pads you use on CSS rims definatley green?
Yes, they are green. The picture is a fairly poor rendition, but they are not grass-green. I know nothing about the pads for ceramic rims but googling their image, as they are a different shade of green and different profile I'd say the compound is not the same. SJS do specify these to suit CSS rims though, and I trust their judgement.
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Kool-Stop have a photo of their green pads here: http://www.koolstop.com/images/ks-mttc_index.jpg
And a larger description of their inventory of rim pads here: http://www.koolstop.com/english/rim_pads.html
Greenish tending toward olive, from what I've seen in person. Of course, colors don't always reproduce "true" on the screen for a variety of reasons. On their site, Kool-Stop give a "Warning: Colors may appear different depending on your monitor settings".
Kool-Stop's compound chart is here, with explanations and applications: http://www.koolstop.com/english/compounds.html They say the green "is for 'ceramic' - This compound was designed for ceramic coated rims and is great in all weather conditions". They also market a black, labeled "R" and designated "Rigida - For Rigida CSS rims".
Best,
Dan.
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Kool-Stop have a photo of their green pads here: http://www.koolstop.com/images/ks-mttc_index.jpg
Those are not the type I have from SJS. My green black pads are for V-brakes, like this:
(http://www.koolstop.com/images/vtype_index.jpg)
Kool-Stop's compound chart is here, with explanations and applications: http://www.koolstop.com/english/compounds.html They say the green "is for 'ceramic' - This compound was designed for ceramic coated rims and is great in all weather conditions". They also market a black, labeled "R" and designated "Rigida - For Rigida CSS rims".
And going by Koolstop's listing they only have one green in this shape pad and they describe it as for ceramic :-\
[EDIT] Stop-press!!! Just went and had a look at those pads again. Where are my glasses....... I was sure they were green :-X ??
No, the pads sold by SJS for Rigida CSS rims are black, definitely black. Part no. KS-LPVBCSS
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Dunno if KS changed their designations or what, Pete. Maybe so.
Here's a link to their Shimano-style v-brake inserts with part numbers to check against your packaging if you still have it: http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type.html
Best,
Dan.
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Yes, I had it wrong Dan - see edit above.
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No worries, Pete; we've all been there. ;D
Best,
Dan.
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My swiss stop blues (and grizzly CSS rims) have passed the 10,000 mile mark! Could well do another few thousand at this rate!