Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: jawj on October 01, 2007, 05:24:59 pm
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Howdy everyone,
Never let it be said that I'm disorganised or a cheapskate, but I've lost the new drain screw from my oil change kit and don't really fancy/can't be bothered to order a new one.
I'm willing to bet at least one of you resourceful chaps has just bunged a blob of Loctite on their old screw and turned it home.
Course you have! [;)]
Any thoughts...?
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I reused mine and didn't bother with loctite - if tightened up sensibly, it won't go anywhere.
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Yep just use the old screw. I am still using the original one after 4 oil changes. I use loctite 222
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Ditto after my oil change.
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Same here. Degreased the screw and the thread in the hub (probably didn't need to), a bit of loctite. Done it 3 times now![^]
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For the two oil changes I have done, I carefully wrapped PTFE tape around the thread.
No leaks
paul
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So what are you all doing with the spare ones you've got. I changed mine but kept the old one just in case. I wonder how many just in cases I'll end up with?
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Which Loctite thread sealant to use on the drain screw, and does it matter?
One of the original posters on this thread uses Loctite 222, Thorn recommend 611, SJS use 641, reading the Henkel site they all have slight differences.
Does it matter, should I care. Is the choice of beer or tea while waiting the 15mins the most important decision!
Oh, & is it worth cleaning the old gunk off the drain screw before putting it back in? Keeping in mind this will make a serious dent in the 15mins gin sipping allocation.
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I've on occasion cleaned the old grub screw with a tissue to remove any gunk, and reused it, not bothering with Loctite. Never lost one on my rough lanes, don't expect to. Note that in the oil changing process you are in any event required to reuse the old screw without Loctite for at least a short ride. If it doesn't fall out then, I reckon that on the same sort of roads it is unlikely to fall out. In any event, even if the screw falls out and the gearbox drains, it won't do any damage before you notice and refill the box and fit a new screw, because enough oil sticks to the gears to keep marching on for possibly up to 3000m/5000km. Be careful not to overtighten the grub screw: that torque rating is just finger-tight (spin the shaft of the hex key between your fingers without actually gripping it) and then lightest touch of the hex key held by the short angled handle.
Of course, a long distance tourer should carry a spare grub screw already Loctited (as it comes from the factory in the refill kit) in his spares.
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just changed the oil on RST yesterday and reused the drain screw, have lost count of the number of oil changes and reuse of it made
Dave
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Same here. Reuse the screw. I bought a kit that didn't come with a new screw but didn't worry about it.
Good point about a long term tourer taking 1.
I think I would take 2 and pack in separate bags. But that's just me.
Matt
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I think I would take 2 and pack in separate bags.
You're not concerned about the extra weight? ;)
Seriously, that's a great idea. When I was last changing my hub oil, I accidentally dropped the screw on the floor. Fortunately I found it easily. I would hate to be changing the oil outside and drop the screw. It might be lost forever. Having a second spare screw is good insurance against our own clumsiness.
- Dave
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Summary in order;
- re-use
- have a spare one
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- Loctite, irrespective of type, is well down the list
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I read some time ago a post which cautioned that when using loctite, or similar, it was very important not to get any into the hub where it could be very detrimental to operation.
julk.
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I accidentally dropped the screw on the floor
you need a magnetic floor ;D as we have in the trade :D
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Thorn recommend 611, SJS use 641,
Rohloff/Thorn/SJSC recommend 511 if your going to re-use.
Loctite 641 is seal glue and is used for the hub shell and cap seals.
In practice bottles of 511 are expensive, we just use a new coated plug every time:
- The threadlock builds up as you drive it into the hub and prevents it going to far into the hub.
- It stops the plug rattling loose
- It stops the plug siezing in (the plug and shell are too different metals)
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Just to add my name to the cavalier list...
I re-use the screw, and don't use thread lock.
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I reuse mine too but I put a a dab of blue hylomar on the top couple of threads only and then place a piece of insulation tape over the top. That way it can't fall out and any leak via the threads will show as the tape lifting. It also means it stays clean underneath so I can do an oil change without washing the bike first.
Julk's point about locking and sealing compounds getting into the hub is the most pertinent though. PTFE tape fragments will be particularly detrimental to the selector operation so go careful with it out there.
A new one every time smacks of consumerism gone mad to me.
Little things count
Ian
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Same here. Reuse the screw. I bought a kit that didn't come with a new screw but didn't worry about it.
Good point about a long term tourer taking 1.
I think I would take 2 and pack in separate bags. But that's just me.
You're not concerned about the extra weight? ;)
Don't! You never know when there will be an obsessed (or new) roadie reading this, and getting sleepless nights about that little grub screw's one gram.
I can just see his anguished post: "I've recently bought a platinum-plated titanium sheathed carbon-monofilament (hand-rubbed on the thighs of Mongolian virgins) TheresOneBornEveryMinute, and can't see the Rohloff grub screw in titanium at SJS. Am I looking in the wrong place?"
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I can just see his anguished post: "I've recently bought a platinum-plated titanium sheathed carbon-monofilament (hand-rubbed on the thighs of Mongolian virgins) TheresOneBornEveryMinute, and can't see the Rohloff grub screw in titanium at SJS. Am I looking in the wrong place?"
If you can't find a titanium Rohloff grub screw, then just drill out your existing one. A simple 37/154" drill through the middle of the screw will save you 0.0073 grams, and the leaking oil will also save 0.08 grams per drop. (My Dad used to drill out his water bottles to save weight.) ;)
- Dave
P.S. Everything in this post is in jest. Do not drill out the grub screw!
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I'd like a platinum-plated titanium sheathed carbon-monofilamen grub screw.......but can't seem to find one one the SJS website :P
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I'm laughing so helplessly, I can't even google it for you.
BRING BACK DRILLIUM!
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you need a magnetic floor ;D as we have in the trade :D
Magnetic floor & steel toe safety boots, something is beginning to make sense here......
That & the perpetual resistance training means the Thorns Works Team should be formidable, but only on fixes.
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Go eco, lightweight and handcrafted: put a cork in.
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...put a cork in.
I thought for a moment you were running for election to Captain of the Topic Pohleese. ;D
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I have been guilty of side-tracking this topic, so I will try to make amends now.
Below, I am summarizing the ideas so far.
There are three choices:
1. Use a new screw.
2. Re-use the old screw, using Loctite or some other thread seal.
3. Re-use the old screw, without thread seal.
The important points to remember are:
1. ensure the screw is tight enough so that it doesn't work loose while riding (hence the use of thread seal), but not too tight
2. ensure that excess thread seal does not get into the hub internals.
The original question was "can I reuse my drain screw?", and I believe the general consensus is "yes, you can, provided that you remember the important points that listed above". As for using thread seal or not, I don't see a general consensus here.
I have only needed to do one oil change on my Rohloff, since my bike is just over a year old. But going forward, I think I will use new screws. I doesn't make sense for me to buy a bottle of Loctite just for this purpose, since I would only need one drop every year! (Although I already have other bottles of different types of Loctite, but I'm not sure if they are the correct type.) Also, the new screws are very inexpensive. When I do my next order from SJS, I will simply add 10 new screws to my order, and not worry about this problem for another decade.
- Dave
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Rohloff/Thorn/SJSC recommend 511 if your going to re-use.
Loctite 641 is seal glue and is used for the hub shell and cap seals.
In practice bottles of 511 are expensive, we just use a new coated plug every time:
- The threadlock builds up as you drive it into the hub and prevents it going to far into the hub.
- It stops the plug rattling loose
- It stops the plug siezing in (the plug and shell are too different metals)
Dave, thanks for the comment on dissimilar metal corrosion. I did an oil change a couple weeks ago, did not use Loctite. But the possibility of corrosion has convinced me to pull the screw out and put a bit of Loctite on it.
I read some time ago a post which cautioned that when using loctite, or similar, it was very important not to get any into the hub where it could be very detrimental to operation.
julk.
I will make sure I put it on the screw threads instead of the shell threads.
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Rohloff/Thorn/SJSC recommend 511 if your going to re-use.
Loctite 641 is seal glue and is used for the hub shell and cap seals.
In practice bottles of 511 are expensive, we just use a new coated plug every time:
- The threadlock builds up as you drive it into the hub and prevents it going to far into the hub.
- It stops the plug rattling loose
- It stops the plug siezing in (the plug and shell are too different metals)
If I have mistaken seal glue for sealant and put a bit on a re-used drain screw do I need to worry or do anything? Is it a petrol/diesel type problem or a gravy mix/instant coffee type problem?
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Seal glue is a non locking sealant, so it should stop leaks but wont stop it undoing.
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It is very important that you don't insert the drain screw too deep into the Rohloff hub shell, because it may interfere in the operation of the gearbox.
One-half to one millimeter of the drain screw should ideally stand proud of the surface of the hub shell, and its top must never be any deeper than level with the surface of the hub shell.
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I am re-using the same screw after 5 oil changes:
A tiny bit of PTFE tape and a wee drop of nail varnish on top of the tape, wait till the varnish is dry and screw it back in place (not too deep, as recommended in the Rohloff manual). I never had any leaks.
I do not bother about carrying a spare screw during long touring. If touring is within 5000km I change the oil before starting the tour. If I have to change oil during touring, o even at home, I put a cloth underneath the wheel to stop the screw to initiate its own tour in case I drop it.
Javier
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Just can't understand why someone would pay £1000 approx
for a wheel and then save a few pounds by re using the drain plug.
Bob
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It is not about saving money, but common sense and eco-friendly behaviour. Why not to re-use a screw which has not been under any torque stress, it is drive in and out only once a year or every 5000 km, and does not show any significant sign of rust?
I would not like not to be re-used by my girlfriend if I am in working condition after an oil change... and hopefully with higher frequency than once a year ;)
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Just can't understand why someone would pay £1000 approx
for a wheel and then save a few pounds by re using the drain plug.
Bob
I can't imagine not using the same screw. I have no idea how many times I changed oil on my motorcycles, but I drove one of them for about 12 years and I never changed the drain screw on that either. And that cost a lot more than a bicycle. I suspect that the garage that changes the oil in my Land Rover uses the same screw too.
And, I do not even know if I could buy the screw locally, I think the short metric setscrews in my local hardware stores are hollow. Thus, I would need the genuine Rohloff screw which no local stores will have for sale.
As noted above, I renew the blue loctite on the screw before I put it in.
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And, I do not even know if I could buy the screw locally, I think the short metric setscrews in my local hardware stores are hollow. Thus, I would need the genuine Rohloff screw which no local stores will have for sale.
If by any chance you lost the screw whilst doing the oil change you would be stuck.
As far as eco friendly behaviour is concerned, I ensure that the screw is recycled.
Bob
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And, I do not even know if I could buy the screw locally, I think the short metric setscrews in my local hardware stores are hollow. Thus, I would need the genuine Rohloff screw which no local stores will have for sale.
If by any chance you lost the screw whilst doing the oil change you would be stuck.
...
Yup.
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;)
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I reuse the drain screw, but also have spares (they come with the oil change kits).
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Just can't understand why someone would pay £1000 approx
for a wheel and then save a few pounds by re using the drain plug.
Not so difficult to understand. Chose one or more:
Cycling was once a working-class sport and disposable income was tight; some of those attitudes have been carried over even now that we ride bikes that cost more than a workingman would have earned in a lifetime back in the early years of cycling. (My first Porsche cost less than my current bike...)
Many forum members are Scots. That too is a philosophical consideration.
It is probably natural for a higher percentage of cyclists to be conservationists and environmentalists than the adherence to those religions in the general population. Certain attitudes and practices follow and may be widely observed on cycling conferences and among pedal pals.
There are some practical shopping difficulties to do with Rohloff's packaging and cataloguing practices causing threshold resistance (a technical marketing term for a psychological barrier that can be created or overcome by certain pricing practices). There is for instance a single service oil kit, very uneconomical but complete down to a new Loctited drain screw; the threaded tube and syringe in it is reusable. There are also several bulk service sets, for instance one of 250ml each of cleaning and all seasons oil, enough for ten services, sold at a substantial saving. But there is no bulk pack of drain screws; you have to buy those individually, and at 250ml bulk buy level the 10 drain screws work out as expensive as 250ml of oil. Subjectively, that makes drain screws seem very expensive, well worth reusing. It's standard motivational psychology.
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By the way, Rohloff specifically permits repeated reuse not only of the drain screw but of the Loctite on it:
"As long as the thread sealant is not worn, then the old oil drain screw may be used repeatedly."
— From the instructions to Oil Change Kit Art.Nr. 8210 and Oil Set Art.Nr. 8411 "How is the oil change carried out?"
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:( And there's me a proud Scotsman wasting my hard earned pennies when I didn't need too. I'm gutted.
Bob
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For want of better words, this thing is a ‘drain plug’…..Just like you have underneath your car or motorbike. Is there anybody in the world that replaces the drain plug on their car or motorbike EVERY TIME that they do an oil change ? (thought not !!)....
EVERY drain plug, that I have ever got involved with is a simple thing. A steel/alloy plug with a replaceable washer. An oil change just needs oil/filter/washer. No filter needed on the Rohloff, so it’s just oil and washer (in my world)
So…..Why didn’t they simply design a drain plug with a replaceable washer ??……
I guess someone would then ask…... ‘Can I reuse the washer’ ??………. ::)
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I feel that I should be able to offer something to this conversation, but I'm feeling drained, my wellsprings of creativity (such as they are) just loc'd down tite. (And blue as well, now that I think of it.)
It wasn't s'posed to be like this, not on the first sunny cold "normal" January day in a month. Happily (I assume) my Raven's oil plug--the only one I've ever used, after several seasons now--is sitting nestled in its proper spot in the shell of its hub, secure 'cos its small clutch of family members (a.k.a. "spares") is just a step away on the shelf, in the shoe box marked "Extra Rohloff Bits".
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So…..Why didn’t they simply design a drain plug with a replaceable washer ??……
I guess someone would then ask…... ‘Can I reuse the washer’ ??………. ::)
Wonder if you could reuse the oil.
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It is very important that you don't insert the drain screw too deep into the Rohloff hub shell, because it may interfere in the operation of the gearbox.
One-half to one millimeter of the drain screw should ideally stand proud of the surface of the hub shell, and its top must never be any deeper than level with the surface of the hub shell.
Seems strange that they would design it so that it is possible to over insert the screw to the extent that it can interfere with the internals!
Why not build a limit of some sort into the design?
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...
EVERY drain plug, that I have ever got involved with is a simple thing. A steel/alloy plug with a replaceable washer. ...
So…..Why didn’t they simply design a drain plug with a replaceable washer ??……
I guess someone would then ask…... ‘Can I reuse the washer’ ??………. ::)
I was not supposed to re-use the same washer? I do not think I ever replaced the washer.
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Wonder if you could reuse the oil.
That did not even occur to me, as if you could, then why take out the drain screw in the first place.
I do have a small piece of tape over the drain screw, but that is only intended to keep the muck out of it so I can insert the wrench into the screw without having to clean it first.
It is very important that you don't insert the drain screw too deep into the Rohloff hub shell, because it may interfere in the operation of the gearbox.
One-half to one millimeter of the drain screw should ideally stand proud of the surface of the hub shell, and its top must never be any deeper than level with the surface of the hub shell.
Seems strange that they would design it so that it is possible to over insert the screw to the extent that it can interfere with the internals!
Why not build a limit of some sort into the design?
Mine always stopped, so I think there is a stop built in. Perhaps someone turned the screw too hard and broke the stop loose? Another reason to renew the blue loctite on the screw, so it will stay there without trying to turn the screw too hard.
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It is very important that you don't insert the drain screw too deep into the Rohloff hub shell, because it may interfere in the operation of the gearbox.
One-half to one millimeter of the drain screw should ideally stand proud of the surface of the hub shell, and its top must never be any deeper than level with the surface of the hub shell.
Seems strange that they would design it so that it is possible to over insert the screw to the extent that it can interfere with the internals!
Why not build a limit of some sort into the design?
Cost, weight, casting capability, though difficult to tell which for those of us not in the room when the design was made. The cost of ordering a shell with extra thickness and machining away the entire surface except a ridge around the drain plug hole doesn't bear thinking about. The weight of leaving the entire shell thick would cause a racer like Herr Rohloff to come out in boils. It may be possible to cast the shell locally thicker at the drain plug but that would probably preclude the nice machining now on the shells. Altogether it may have seemed that the best answer was to tell mechanics to take care screwing in the stud.
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I've used the same drain screw plug x3 times over 3+ years but this month tagged on a new one from a SJS order.
Just saying......
😉
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I was not supposed to re-use the same washer? I do not think I ever replaced the washer.
It depends on the designer's aim.
When I had my own Honda car service center back in another life long ago, it was standard procedure to replace the crushable aluminum washer on the oil pan drain bolt. At the specified torque, the bolt head actually embedded slightly into the washer and the washer itself deformed slightly into the oil pan's threaded socket opening; all this ensured a tight seal.
I didn't believe it at first, so I conducted some experiments on my own car where I drained the oil, cleaned all traces of oil off the outside of the pan, and then torqued the bolt in place reusing the washer. When I checked back in 20 minutes and wiped the pan with a light colored cloth, there was a slight "mist" of oil 'round the used washer. Overnight, a drop formed at the edge. This happened three times, so I figured Honda knew what they were talking about and always used a fresh crushable aluminum washer with each oil change onmy car as well as all others I serviced. No leaks between changes!
Other makes I've seen used copper, nylon, and even bronze crush washers as well as non-deformible steel.
My family owned Honda cars for about 40 years. Our other vehicles (light trucks and SUVs of various sorts) used V6 and V8 engines with reusable (steel) drain bolt washers. We kept those vehicles a long time also and they never developed leaks 'round their plugs. They did however require use of a sealant. Honda's transmission drain bolts used crushable washers, but their coolant gallery plugs used sealant. The difference depended on how the interface was engineered.
Many drain plugs (both NPT and metric) are subtly tapered (sometimes referred to as a "pipe taper") so when the drain bolt or plug is fully home, an interference fit prevents leakage. I have not yet checked my Rohloff drain plugs during my oil changes (I use a new one each time), but it is likely they are tapered. If it is indeed tapered and is over-torqued, then not only would the plug extend into the hub's interior, the threads could well be enlarged to the largest plug diameter, affecting future sealing.
I eventually fitted oil drain actuator valves (Fram, Femco, Fumoto) to all my vehicles so I never had to remove the drain bolts again. Rohloff's current solution is appropriate to need.
Best,
Dan.
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it was standard procedure to replace the crushable aluminum washer on the oil pan drain bolt
Similar drill on the drain-plus washer on Hans, my '86 BMW airhead. I always replaced the washer.
I've never changed the drain screw on Osi, my Raven, in the three seasons I've ridden it. No leaks--I do use blue threadlocker, and cover the screw with a tab of electricians' tape to keep it clean.
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I re-used my first drain plug 4 times. On each re-use the plug sat lower and lower in relation to the Rohloff shell (tightened each time with the same torque). When the drain plug was level with the shell, I used a brand new one. Tightened with the same torque again, the new plug now sits 0.5 - 1.0 mm above the Rohloff shell.
My conclusion would be to replace the drain plug when it becomes level with the Rohloff hub shell.
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Useful tip, Stunt -- thanks. My drain screw is still slightly proud of the hub shell -- good for another year, I expect.
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I re-used my first drain plug 4 times. On each re-use the plug sat lower and lower in relation to the Rohloff shell (tightened each time with the same torque). When the drain plug was level with the shell, I used a brand new one. Tightened with the same torque again, the new plug now sits 0.5 - 1.0 mm above the Rohloff shell.
My conclusion would be to replace the drain plug when it becomes level with the Rohloff hub shell.
This makes sense, especially if you reuse the Loctite on the screw. It would compress a little more each time you use the screw, and the screw would sink deeper.
Lovely visual control you've spotted, Stunt. No expensive tools required, just to use your eyes and your noggin.
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Mk1 Rohloff drain pugs are infact an M6 grub screw coated in oil proof Loctite, Rohloff by hand punch the Allen key end of each plug to flare it. This stops the plug traveling too far into the hub and damaging the internal. If you keep trying to reuse this plug the flare will eventually be reduced.
Mk2 Rohloff drain plugs appeared on hubs shipped after their summer break late August 2016, these are parallel M6 grub screws but all importantly incorporating a stopped thread meaning there isn't a chance they can wind into the hub. Eventually all the spare and oil change kit plugs will also be of this design (when Rohloff's/Distributors/Retailers stocks clear through of the Mk1 style)
For what they cost I would never not use a new one even with the Mk2 version, oil proof Loctite is expensive and doesn't store well so I don't see that as a solution and using blue Loctite 243 etc. causes issues, I probably get 1-2 hubs a moth back with rounded drain screws where people have used it or been re-using the plug.
But its up to the individual, I also fix cars at weekends and generally go much further than most garages when it comes to replacing fixings / studs / bolts / washers / seals /gaskets etc. but I've never had a job come back on me yet... you pay your money you take your choice.
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+1
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Dang! So there's likely no market for used Rohloff drain screws :-( But maybe...polished, they'd serve as industrial-strength sequins, things for the Harley guys to wear on their jackets, time capsule components, etc.
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Unfortunately the "can I reuse my drain screw?" thread was losing momentum... but there it comes David Whittle Thorn Workshop's message to refuel the issue :)
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Always good to hear from Dave.
What were the Hub numbers issued after August 2016?
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Unfortunately the "can I reuse my drain screw?" thread was losing momentum... but there it comes David Whittle Thorn Workshop's message to refuel the issue :)
........with a fairly convincing reply.........
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If anyone should know its Dave.
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If by any chance you lost the screw whilst doing the oil change you would be stuck.
A quote from above.
This just happened to me. Flippin thing fell out into the dirt and garden bark chippings. Spent ages looking for it but was then able to use the new one I had purchased following the above comments!
I had reused the old one x3 times.
With my next SJS order I'll be buying x2 more as back up.
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Here is an example of why not to screw the drain plug in too far ::)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/20j68hh.jpg)
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A lesson learnt there for sure.
Can anyone else see the sinister face reflectiing in the oil? Promise I'm not 'over refreshed'
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Interesting. That is a good warning to avoid trying to screw things in too tight.
I always screwed in the drain screw to be tight enough, not too tight. I try not to screw things in too tight when threaded into Aluminum which is softer than steel. And with the blue loctite on it, I was confident that it did not have to be toooooooooo tight.
And I put a piece of tape over the screw, not to hold the screw in, but to keep dirt out of the hex hole in the screw so it would be easier to insert a wrench later. But I am sure that the tape can't hurt if the screw was not tight enough.
After Dave's previous note on dissimilar metal corrosion, I always put new blue loctite on the screw with each oil change, which I will probably be doing in in the near future when I pull the studded tires off the bike.
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Hi Dave,
Was that covered by the Rohloff guarantee. ;)
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I did the oil change on the tandem today.
A nice late summer/early autumn by the calendar day 30C.
I had a blanket under the bike just in case but I managed to remove and replace the old screw and install the new drain screw without dropping it!
Cheers
Mike
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After dropping the screw during both of the first two oil changes, (found it both times quite by accident as it hadn't bounced where I thought it had) I put a piece of masking (painters) tape over the end of the hex driver when I placed it into the drain screw. It's just tacky enough, and fills in the void, to hold the drain screw to the hex driver when removing or installing the screw.
I also put a blanket down now every time I take small parts off the bike.
Third time lucky!
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A several years old continuing tread on the smallest part of a Rohloff? Either you gent's are the most thorough minds anywhere, or it's more than just the Rohloff's drain screws that can come loose! :D
I really appreciate that Dave Whittle chimes in. Wisdom such as his is great value added to this forum and SJS Cycles.