Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: Andre Jute on February 04, 2014, 11:45:15 pm
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Today, just showing my bike that it is cooped up inside because it is so unpleasant outside, I noticed that my Brooks waxed seat cover looks a bit threadbare. It sees little use when out for exercise rides but when the bike doubles up for utility runs, when it will be left outside shops and the library and so on, I put the cover on at home and just ride on it. But, from the quick wear, I'm starting to wonder whether this is the way it is supposed to be used. Knowledge? Alternative practice? Opinion?
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Andre,
I've always been of the view that when I'm riding, *I* cover the saddle. The cover is for when the bike is parked, else it wears unduly.
My cover lives in a little drawstring sack attached to the saddle rails and in inclement weather, goes on the moment I come off.
Best,
Dan. (...who may not be Right, but found this to be a winning strategy for both saddle and cover)
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Not supposed to ride on it, but you can. My Brooks cover wore out quickly without riding on it, and was no longer waterproof after just a few months resulting in my B17 Narrow getting partially saturated overnight one time. I now use cheap shower caps to keep my saddle dry and put the brooks cover on top sometimes to be sure the shower cap stays in place, for example when on the back of the car.
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Thanks, folks. I live in a small town. When my bike is used for shopping etc, the average ride between stops is seconds, not even minutes. Because the n'lock is so easy to lock and unlock, I literally ride across the street from the pharmacist to the library, twenty yards, and from there to the art shop, twenty yards, and from there to the bank, forty yards, and so on; I'm on the bike seconds at a time.
It would be a huge nuisance to take the saddle cover off and put it back on again at such short intervals. I think I'll just wear it out and replace it with something more durable, or resign myself to my beloved Brooks B73 getting wet and out of shape.
This is definitely a pain in the seating area.
I wonder if it would help against the rain to slather the seat with Brook's wax preparation (or Obenauf's), or really let the neatsfoat soak in (instead of just dipping the saddle in neatsfoot for twenty minutes like I did), or even try motor oil, as was used on Brooks in olden days, when even Sheldon was young.
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I'm not surprised to discover that waxed cotton isn't permanently waterproof. I have a Berghaus Goretex/nylon mountain jacket, about a grand's worth, same jacket Chris Bonington went up Mount Everest in, and they gave me several new ones every time it started leaking until another hillwalker told me the secret: the Goretex lining is only half the protection, the other half is the nap on the nylon shell, so it helps to put the jacket through the laundry, including the hot air dryer, to bring up the nap. And it works. I also spray it with Nikwax every so often. Still, for that much money I'd expect it to work better, without contortions.
Not that the Brooks seat cover is cheap. I should have bought several B73 saddles when they were on sale for £49 at SJS...
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<nods> Yes, I can see your dilemma, Andre.
Given the parameters, I'd choose to replace the saddle cover rather than risk doping the saddle further with various preparations. Even Proofide -- when applied too enthusiastically or too often -- can contribute to Dreaded Stretch, which is horrific to folks like me who wish my saddle would stay in a near-new shape indefinitely.
Another alternative might be to replace the Brooks cover with one made of rubberized or urethane-coated backings on the underside, thus preserving against wear and loss of waterproofing a bit longer than what you're now using. Rual's plastic shower cap is not a bad approach. Though a bit déclassé in status compared to the Brooks, superior function can win the day.
That trick with the clothes dryer also works to re-activate DWR (Durable Water-Resistant) fabric treatments, which are primarily designed to prevent wet-out at the surface, yet still breathe (many of these treatments are polymer-based).
Best,
Dan. (...who envies Andre's proximity to community resources)
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folks like me who wish my saddle would stay in a near-new shape indefinitely.
Yes, I too like my saddle hard and flat-topped. That’s how it is most comfortable.
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Thanks, folks. I live in a small town. When my bike is used for shopping etc, the average ride between stops is seconds, not even minutes. Because the n'lock is so easy to lock and unlock, I literally ride across the street from the pharmacist to the library, twenty yards, and from there to the art shop, twenty yards, and from there to the bank, forty yards, and so on; I'm on the bike seconds at a time.
It would be a huge nuisance to take the saddle cover off and put it back on again at such short intervals. I think I'll just wear it out and replace it with something more durable, or resign myself to my beloved Brooks B73 getting wet and out of shape.
This is definitely a pain in the seating area.
I wonder if it would help against the rain to slather the seat with Brook's wax preparation (or Obenauf's), or really let the neatsfoat soak in (instead of just dipping the saddle in neatsfoot for twenty minutes like I did), or even try motor oil, as was used on Brooks in olden days, when even Sheldon was young.
Might I suggest that you do exactly what Brooks recommend?
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I'm not surprised to discover that waxed cotton isn't permanently waterproof. I have a Berghaus Goretex/nylon mountain jacket, about a grand's worth, same jacket Chris Bonington went up Mount Everest in, and they gave me several new ones every time it started leaking until another hillwalker told me the secret: the Goretex lining is only half the protection, the other half is the nap on the nylon shell, so it helps to put the jacket through the laundry, including the hot air dryer, to bring up the nap. And it works. I also spray it with Nikwax every so often. Still, for that much money I'd expect it to work better, without contortions.
Not that the Brooks seat cover is cheap. I should have bought several B73 saddles when they were on sale for £49 at SJS...
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The earlier Brooks saddle covers from about 5-10 years ago were of rather limited water-proofing, and certainly would not take to being ridden on. Newer Brooks saddles all come with a saddle cover and it is much better - quite waterproof even when left on in rain overnight. However I would still advise to avoid riding on the cover (believe Brooks say this) and just use it when the derriere is not covering the saddle.
Mind you, many friends of mine (long-time Brooks users) simply carry a plastic bag stuffed between the saddle rails. Cheap, easy, readily replaced. They don't ride on it however.
Andre, for such short-trip visits, can you not just park the bike in some more rain-sheltered spots at each location? Or park the bike (locked) centrally and walk to your destinations? Normally I would only bother with the saddle cover when it really is raining and/or I am going to be at a location for some length of time.
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I don't worry too much about occasionally getting a Brooks saddle wet.
I have a Brooks B66 Champion saddle on my utility bike with 5-speed hub. The bike gets used in all weathers but is not generally left parked outside for very long periods.
I never ride the bike with a cover on the saddle - it is usually fairly well covered by myself, and I tend to use a rain cape on long rides in wet weather, which limits the amount of water getting to the saddle.
When I use the bike for a succession of short shopping trips (nowadays about once a week with 3-4 different shops), I don't usually bother covering the saddle at stops, just sometimes when it is really pouring, mainly because I don't like getting my trousers wet.
For the weekly supermarket shop, I leave the bike outside for about an hour. If it seems likely to rain I tie a plastic bag over the saddle, sometimes I forget and it gets a bit wet.
I've had that saddle since 1987, done about 61,000 kms with it. It hasn't had the recommended Brooks Proofide treatment (when I bought the saddle it was difficult to find Proofide in France), just a SMALL amount of Nikwax boot care wax (nearest thing to Proofide I had) on the top a few times a year, and I might have used neatsfoot oil on the underside (too long ago to remember).
The leather is a bit worn and very discoloured, but the saddle top hasn't stretched much and is still very comfortable.
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I have a brooks saddle cover on my brooks saddle on my Brampton, I only take it off to put some Proofide on the saddle. It does a great job of protecting the saddle as the bike lives in the boot of my car and slides around alot. I just took the cover off and checked the saddle looks fine to me. The cover on the other hand looks proper battered. The cover is about 3 years old and it may be time to invest in a new one. On my Sherpa I don't have my brooks covered but I tend to cover the saddle with my behind when it is raining.
So my answer is just leave it on. Pictures to follow.
All the best.
Peter
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Ok pictures.
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and the other one.
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My tandem saddle covers often raise a smile.
they are shower caps bought in a French market
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Ok pictures.
That is the older Brooks saddle cover I believe, the one that is not overly waterproof.
Shower-caps are a fairly handy item. Multi-function, also works well as a shower cap (surprise), and as a wet weather helmet cover. ;D
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/t1/557441_10150654670136107_771067325_n.jpg)
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I use a plastic bag! I only cover the saddle when I'm leaving it outside for a period of time and I suspect rain is likely. When riding I find I cover it and even in very wet weather I really find the saddle is sodden. I seem to have a very tough B17, which took an age to wear in but has now done 25,000 miles and I have barely touched the tension bolt. When discussing Brooks its difficult to generalise as they are highly variable according to the natural properties of the leather.
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Are you saying the saddle will be damaged by getting wet??
Can't you spray the saddle with a waterproofer? On my leather gortex gloves I apply dubarry conditioner followed by mink oil. The latter is more like lard which has been in fridge specially as I leave it in the garage by the bike. That way I don't forget to apply it. Makes gloves a bit sticky which I like. May work on saddle? It definitely works on gloves for at least 4 hours of cycling in heavy rain.
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Thanks for the input, all.
My Brooks saddle cover too is the older model, as in Peter Hopwood's photos. But, rather than replace it, I think I'll switch to Il Padrone's fetching multi-perp (heh-heh) shower cap. That Brooks seat cover is unnecessary advertising to impulse perps.
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Andre --
Like you, I have been thinking about an appropriate rain cover for my Brooks saddle. And also like you, I think Il Padrone's shower cap is a perfect solution. However, now that I see you have your eyes on his shower cap, I am forced to look elsewhere. With your vast resources, there is no doubt that you would drive up the bidding for Il Padrone's cap to such a price that I would have no chance of purchasing it.
;)
- Dave
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Andre --
Like you, I have been thinking about an appropriate rain cover for my Brooks saddle. And also like you, I think Il Padrone's shower cap is a perfect solution. However, now that I see you have your eyes on his shower cap, I am forced to look elsewhere. With your vast resources, there is no doubt that you would drive up the bidding for Il Padrone's cap to such a price that I would have no chance of purchasing it.
;)
- Dave
It's not true that I'm too cheap to buy the latest gear and be fashionable like you, Dave. It's just that I'm so poor that it pays me to buy the best stuff because it has to last me forever. That Brooks saddle cover has been a major disappointment to me, lasting only six or seven years.
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god i'de love to be as poor as you Andre ;D ;D
anto.
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The Brooks saddle cover seems to work fine for me but is prone to wear. After riding it on it for only a few weeks it is already showing some signs of wear. It has also developed a few pin-prick sized holes. Best thing is that they are not too expensive with SJS Cycles doing a good price ...
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brooks-coated-nylon-waterproof-saddle-cover-black-prod11257/
I looked around for a tougher replacement and found the Randi Jo Fabrications cover ...
https://www.randijofab.com/?wpsc-product=saddle-covers
The interesting thing is that they come with an 'under-flap' to protect the underside of the saddle from water splash if you are riding without mud guards.
I would still carry a stylish, à la mode shower cap for emergencies or to stop anyone nabbing the Randi Jo Fabrications seat cover!
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plastic bag ;) it wont get that wet when your sitting on it .
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Are you saying the saddle will be damaged by getting wet??
Come on lets have an answer. Does getting it wet damage it? My new bike has a Brooks on. So do I need to waterproof it, as I have no intention of carrying a bag round. I am certain I will forget to put it on anyway.
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yes it will damage it big time the leather will go hard and crack if its not treated with proof hide .you only need to proofhide it twice a year keep a plastic bag under the saddle at all times.
you have been warned 8)
jags.
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If a Brooks saddle is treated with Proofide or an equivalent a couple of times a year, it should shrug off a few drops of water.
It's getting it soaked through and riding on it in the soaked state that stretches the leather out of shape.
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When the saddle gets very wet and is ridden it can stretch out badly. A friend of mine rode his in an exceptionally muddy, wet MTB event. The saddle spread out to almost flat.
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I'm of the opinion that todays cyclists over think many things. I had a brooks on my Peugeot back when I was 17. I rode it rain of shine and parked it the same way. I ditched the saddle in about 1980, three years later because I got into racing then and had to be more "racer boy" and none of the adds sending corrections to my untutored brain included and cool about Brooks ... so I improved the perfectly formed but old fashioned Brooks with a plastic wrapped piece of plastic. Touring never was the same, and it was hardly possible ... but I did look cool!
In my old age I now think that the sum of my experience is "just ride it ... and don't worry over it". In fact I soaked my recalcitrant Brooks when I got it after about 1200 miles. It helped the break in remarkably I thought. Prior to that I could not escape the feeling that it was my derrière that was breaking in, not the Brooks.
So now ... I just don't worry about it. Rain or shine ... bring it on! Care free riding. And should I prove to be wrong, well a new brooks every three years, though that sounds extreme, would even then, probably cost only as much as the racer boys, on their nice racing saddles, spend in chamois creme anyways. Fair economy, I think. :)
Brooks saddle; $90 dollars US. Care free bicycling; priceless! ;)
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Brooks saddle; $90 dollars US. Care free bicycling; priceless! ;)
Seems to me putting the cover on when it rains hard is a small price to pay for not having to break in anohter saddle.
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I bought some cheap lycra saddle covers that are not waterproof, not even water resistant. I put them over a plastic bag to protect the plastic bag and keep the plastic bag in place. Works great.
I have toured with a few people that very sagging Brooks saddles, they all thought I was nuts for being as careful as I was, they were saying that there was no reason to be as finicky as I was. But all I had to do was look at their sagging saddles to conclude that my care was well warranted.
I went on a trip with several others. One guy put his bike upside down in the evening so that he could inspect his tires, but he left his bike upside down during the night. Big thunderstorm during the night. Next morning his Brooks was still in the puddle, but by the time I took the photo, some of the puddle had drained. This is not the best way to treat a Brooks.
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One guy put his bike upside down in the evening so that he could inspect his tires, but he left his bike upside down during the night. Big thunderstorm during the night. Next morning his Brooks was still in the puddle, but by the time I took the photo, some of the puddle had drained. This is not the best way to treat a Brooks.
Some people shouldn't be allowed to own a good bike, or even good components.
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Seems to me putting the cover on when it rains hard is a small price to pay for not having to break in anohter saddle.
Andre ... I'm saying that from my experience that getting a Brooks wet does nothing over six or seven years but make it more comfortable. This has been blown waaay out of proportion imho. Those horrid looking saddles, sagging and destroyed looking, are the most comfortable things to sit on ever. Those nice shiny and kept spiffy Brooks - are mostly torture. Letting my saddle get soaked (about five or six times so far) and riding it ... seems to have helped shape it towards a bit more comfort but so far I don't consider mine to be broken in. Not even close, in fact. And the black saddle as well as the green one I have for backup seem to me to take more time to start to wear in than the natural one on the bike. The green one is the worst. Just doesn't seem to change. Could be my imagination though.
And even if I'm terribly wrong and my memories and experience thus far are faulty ... buying a new saddle for the cost of a set of decent tyres is well worth the fuss free cycling and quicker comfort gained by letting the saddle take nature as it comes. :)
I have the rain cover btw. I would not ride on it but may put it on occasionally after the saddle is well worn in. Lastly, my thinking is that the split hide of the bottom is likely much more suseptible to penetration by water than the top. I've not tried putting the proofing on the bottom, but those with a different philosophy to mine may want to try. Brooks does state however that the proofing should not be applied excessively.
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Andre ... I'm saying that from my experience that getting a Brooks wet does nothing over six or seven years but make it more comfortable. This has been blown waaay out of proportion imho.
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Brooks does state however that the proofing should not be applied excessively.
You misunderstood me, Pavel. I'm with you. I think it is amusing when people treat a bicycle saddle like an heirloom. I've in the past written, probably on this forum as well, about the swaybacked Brooks saddles I saw as a boy in Africa that had seen neither Proofide nor cover nor shelter from subtropical rains and relentless sun for tens and hundreds of thousands of miles over the decades, and that were considered extremely comfortable by their owners.
My point was somewhat different. I soaked my new Brooks saddle in neatsfoot oil -- which by itself gave the Brooks groupies on RBT an apoplexy -- and then rode it until it was just right. Now I put on a light layer of Proofide once or twice a year to protect it in light rain. But in heavy rain I put on the cover because I'm happy with the saddle as it is now and don't want it further shaped. It's no hardship: it happens only about once or twice a year, as my time is so much under my own control that I am rarely faced with the choice of riding in heavy rain or not riding at all. And I just ride on the cover when necessary, and avoid the tiresomeness of putting it on and taking it off; I don't mind if it wears out.
Note to those who don't yet have a Brooks saddle: Mine is the B73, a heavy duty touring saddle for semi-sporting and upright seating postures, distinguished by having double rails and triple helical springs, one at each corner. It is often said to be the most confortable Brooks straight out of the box, and the quickest to break in because the spring arrangement makes it the one that requires the least breaking-in. It is certainly the most comfortable saddle I've ever owned. The typical B73 owner has his handlebars set at the same level or higher than the saddle nose on his bike; it is not a suitable saddle for bikes with drop bars. It is built with pretty thick leather that will clearly last a long time, and that will shrug off the abuse of touring in rough places; scars give it character.