The awkward moment when there's a blue rag down your seat tube...

[JWestland]

The awkward moment when there's a blue rag down your seat tube...

Not done by me!
(Never stuff rags down pipes it can only end badly)

I took out the seatpost as the grease turns brown every time, so I thought the XTC may benefit from a good clean and some rust killer. Shone down a strong spotlight and to my surprise there's a blue rag down the seat tube.

Well that shall be fun to fish that out.

So what's the best way to clean the tubes of a frame? I guess a pipe cleaner?
Then spray in rustkiller?
Wait for that to dry and then some frame saver?

[expr]

Hi, I'm not sure how available it is, as I get it from work but you could try abrasive cloth. It comes in different grades and is about 10 inches by 7 inches square by 1/2 inch thick. This can then be cut to size and mounted on a wooden cane etc and used to clean (lightly) the inside of a frame. It's the same consistency as a scouring pad in the kitchen, the stuff that's usually green etc....

I usually mount it to a drill attachment to make the job quicker and easier, but can be quite easily done by hand. Maybe check ebay etc for 3m scotch pad.....

Yes you could use rust killer, or rust converter, this will make any existing rust turn back to black oxide (good steel) and then spray with frame saver or a good waxoyl....

You need the green colour grade pad this is quite fine but will clean light rust, if you need anything more aggressive use the brown colour.

Dave.

[Danneaux]

So what's the best way to clean the tubes of a frame? I guess a pipe cleaner?
Then spray in rustkiller?
Wait for that to dry and then some frame saver?

Hi Jawine!

Well...I've found it kinda depends on the state of the frame's interior. I always start by removing the bottom bracket and inserting some old cups so I wont have to clean added debris out of the fine threads, which can be a real pain.

I then invert the frame in a stand so any loosened debris won't fall further downward.

If there is interior rust, I will sometimes uses a fixed or expanding hone set to the required diameter and re-hone the seat lug area. Below that, I use a flap-wheel sanding disc on the flexible shaft of my Dremel Moto-Tool the length of the seat tube. Lacking that, once can use a wad of production cloth held in a claw-ended parts-grabber and run that up and down the interior of the seat tube.

After, I use a mix of compressed air and small rags soaked in 99% isopropyl alcohol to remove any remaining dusty/rusty debris.

If there is any sort of rust left, I hit it with a conversion coating, like Ospho. Otherwise, it is down to one's favorite rust-inhibitor. The usual favorites are Framesaver, linseed oil, or a spray inhibitor of some sort.

Once the seat tube's all done, I set the frame upright and go after the BB threads with a tap and/or a small brass rotary brush, chucked in the Dremel (the brass is soft, so it doesn't damage the steel threads).

If the frame is essentially fine, then I'll soak a rag in 99% isopropyl, invert he frame, insert the damp rag in the BB and move it "down" toward the seat lug so it will carry debris out of the frame and away from the BB. Once it has dried, then I re-treat the interior with a rust inhibitor.

Sometimes, I've had good luck using a baby-bottle brush with nylon bristles attached to a straightened wire coathanger. It is usually large enough to remove most dirt and "stuff" pretty nicely, followed by a green Scotchbrite pad and soft clean rag.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

[JWestland]

Thanks for the tips

Need to find out where to source some good scouring material but there's some garages nearby.

The seatpost was stuck when I got the bike from e-bay, the bikeshop removed it but a bound seatpost is generally caused by water corrosion. It's not too bad no need to say prayers for the beastie yet. Just want to stop it before it gets bad.

The BB was totally clear when the manfriend put in a new BB (other one was a bit...tired) no rust at all. But of course if there's water inside a frame after a while the Thorn framesaving wears out, which happened with the seatpost.

That framesaver is nasty stuff btw where's my hazmat suit

[macspud]

Hello Jawine,

Where did you get your frame saver from, from doing a google search all I'm finding posts about it but not any purveyors of the product. I had expected to find it online at SJSC or wiggle etc, but can't seem to find it.

Regards,

Iain.

[Danneaux]

Iain,

Ceeway have it: http://www.ceeway.com/Framesaver.htm

Best,

Dan.

[macspud]

Thanks Dan,
I will look into that. I was also thinking about using Fluid Film, it's not noxious to use and I've heard rave reports about it as corrosion protection on cars, machinery, marine use etc, I like the idea of it being a natural product too (lanolin based, from Sheeps wool). What do you think?
Regards,
Iain.

[Danneaux]

Hi Ian!

I do indeed know about Fluid Film: http://www.fluid-film.com/testing.html I have not used it myself, but friends have employed it to protect the outside of gun barrels on hunting rifles (it rains and snows here during hunting season) and on the cutting bars of chainsaws. It seemed to work well in each application, but it was visible as a sort of film over the underlying finish. That wouldn't be a problem if it was *inside* tubing, but I think it could change the finish outside (i.e. matte black powdercoat might become glossier).

It does work, but some cautions must be observed. For one, it can attack rubber including some forms of synthetic rubber, and I know of someone who used it to seal the external drive shafts on an industrial water pump against corrosion...and it did seem to be instrumental in damaging the seals.

Also, it is thixotropic and becomes thinner under pressure and thicker when left standing. For this reason, it is best applied in quantity with a *lot* of pressure behind it in order to get adequate film thickness and "spread". An aerosol can do the trick alright for small areas, such as inside tubing.

It is removable with heavy detergents and bio-cleaners. What is not certain is just how long it will provide maximum corrosion protection. It does a very good job short-term, but it appears it must be rubbed in to get the best protection.

Having sealed/treated a number of frame interiors with other products, I can offer on caution: If you apply a sealant in the top portion of the seat tube, it can be difficult to get the seatpost back in after the stuff dries. Even worse is to insert the seatpost before it has fully cured, as it will be more difficult to remove. Don't ask how I know this.  

Sealants can also be problematic if they manage to worm their way into the threads of a bottom bracket and can "glue" an eccentric into place with just enough tension to make smooth adjustments a bit difficult until you "break" the film and it can turn freely once again.

There are alternatives. Some people claim outstanding results from linseed oil, but it can also be a mess if it gets into threads and can be a real problem to clean up if it gets outside and then cures. Waxoyl is a very popular spray, as is the sort of liquified aerosol wax used to shoot into car door panels to discourage rust in places where the roads are salted in winter.

Being an iBOB listserv alumnus, I have to mention beeswax. It is not good in its raw state , where it flakes and crumbles, but becomes extremely useful and moldable after it has been kneaded by hand. Kneaded beeswax has worked well for me to seal framebuilding vent holes in chainstays and fork blades, around the base of seatposts at the seat lug clamp, and as a threadlocking compound on threaded quill headsets. It is also terrific as a lubricant for driving long screws into hardwood, as I sometimes do with stair handrail brackets and bathroom grab bars. Another nice thing about is you can always pick or punch it out with a double-ended toothpick, and it is waterproof and replaceable, leaving no trace afterwards if you decide you don't want it. It helps prevent water entry, but the huge limitation is it does nothing to protect the inside of tubing, so it is still wise to use something -- even a grease- or oil-soaked rag run up and down on using a wire coathanger as a handle can help protect raw steel to a degree.

If you try Fluid Film on a bike, I'd love to hear how it goes and a bit about how it seems to be protecting over time. Like you, I really like that it is a natural product and should therefore be somewhat safer. FrameSaver smells something terrible, and I use my charcoal-filtered brazing mask *and* lots of ventilation when applying it. Opening the frame later releases what always smell like fresh fumes to me and is enough to clear a room.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Dan.

[JWestland]

I think I will just leave it untreated for now, or use linseed oil or...Vaseline!

Works very well as a barrier too. Not sure I can find a way to apply it to the inside, but for the outside of the bikes it's cheap and blocks moist very well.

Dan, what do you use to plug welding holes? My vintage road bike has a few...and in the Irish weather... :S

[Andre Jute]

I've never had a rusty bike, but I've had some vintage cars that survived real well with hard oxide (rust) an eighth of an inch thick on the chassis. That works better than sandblasting and zinc spraying, let me tell you. I'm not so sure I won't take the view that rust on a bike, as on a car, creates its own protective film. -- Andre Jute

[JWestland]

There's rust that eats all the way through...

(on pissoir steel as my dad calls that and my friends now deceased Nissan...)

...and rust that covers up like in Aluminum.

How do we know what's what though? :S

[Danneaux]

Dan, what do you use to plug welding holes?

Hi Jawine!  I've tried a variety of things over the years, but have now settled on kneaded beeswax as the best material for plugging the vent holes on frames.

It is harmless to paint and once kneaded, it is easily moldable and stays in place until or unless you wish to remove* it with a double-ended toothpick. It will even take and hold a spot of touch-up paint. Hand-kneading beeswax is one of those mindless and vaguely relaxing activities you can do during another (non)activity like watching television. I use fresh beeswax -- the clear kind with no wings or little bee-parts -- and roll the kneaded portion into balls about 2cm in diameter. I do 3-4 at a time, then pop them into a zip-top plastic bag and store them in my toolbox till needed. It is handy for a variety of things so I keep it around.

The vent holes are put in frames and fork blades to release expanding gases and heat while the frame is brazed or welded together. They have been cleverly and carefully placed on Thorn's bikes so they are not exposed to the elements (usually inside the seat tube and the fork crown. For a photos of Sherpa's see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg18563#msg18563 ). It is always a good idea to make sure the frame tubes are dry of any water inside before plugging them. I usually do the job in summer or bring the bike inside till the temperature normalizes so the plugs won't trap condensate inside.

*Removable vent plugs allow you to readily re-treat the frame with spray or interior coating, and -- if one is really determined -- allow for a vacuum cleaner nozzle placed over one vent to pull a thread through the other. The thread is tied to a small insulated wire and makes it possible to run computer pickup leads or headlight/taillight wires through the frame. Kinda depends on the size of the holes, but it is a nifty way to keep electrical wire runs nicely tamed.

Best,

Dan.

[JWestland]

Tx that may work

The welding holes on the fork are at the top (ok) and bottom (hrm Irish rain) there are two on the seat stays as well (Irish weather again).

Well it's an Italian bike...not a country known for yearlong autumns 

[macspud]

For now I would be using it (Fluid Film) on an old Dawes Galaxy, which I recently bought off ebay as a stop gap, while I save up for a New Nomad (there are never any second hand in my size). Though the Galaxies tubes appear to be in Fair condition inside, there is some surface rust (fingers crossed, it's only on the surface) in the seat tube, I was thinking of using a rust converter (ospho or similar) on that and also in case some rust has formed out of sight in the down tube or chain stays.
I thought that Fluid Film would be good as it does stay fluid (hence the name) rather than drying, it also creeps meaning that it covers well filling in any small holidays which may occur during application and penetrates into any porous surface (it's also used as a penetrative lubricant).
It can be problematic if not very thoroughly cleaned when doing a respay.

It does work, but some cautions must be observed. For one, it can attack rubber including some forms of synthetic rubber, and I know of someone who used it to seal the external drive shafts on an industrial water pump against corrosion...and it did seem to be instrumental in damaging the seals.

Thank you for the warning, I hadn't heard of any problems with it attacking rubber before now, I'll keep it mind if using it near seals etc, should be ok inside bike tubes I'd think.
The reason that I was thinking of using a rust preventative is that living in the Scottish highlands on the west coast, it is often very wet and also the salty air tends to corrode untreated metals pretty quickly. In the past I lost a frame to rust from the inside out when I failed to realise it had suffered water ingress.

I've never had a rusty bike, but I've had some vintage cars that survived real well with hard oxide (rust) an eighth of an inch thick on the chassis. That works better than sandblasting and zinc spraying, let me tell you. I'm not so sure I won't take the view that rust on a bike, as on a car, creates its own protective film. -- Andre Jute

I agree Andre, in some circumstances a thick layer of rust can be protective in it's own right, in this case the tubing wall thickness wouldn't allow for 1/8" of build up, it's just too thin.
I will update as to whether it was a good idea or not at a later date.