Author Topic: Here's the science  (Read 4378 times)

JimK

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 03:15:59 pm »
I was thinking of "a" as a wheel flip.



Looking closely at my rear wheel, this is how the spokes look. Spokes 1 and 3 are hooked to the near flange of the hub, 2 and 4 to the far flange. Flipping the wheel around the dashed line will take 1 to where 4 is and 2 to where 3 is... making the picture look just the same, so it is a symmetry. And of course flipping twice is like not flipping at all, i.e. a*a = 1.

b is a rotation, taking one cluster of 4 spokes around to the next cluster of 4 spokes. On a 36 spoke hub, there will be 9 clusters, and rotating through all 9 is a 360 degree rotation, i.e. no rotation at all, so b**9 is 1.

a*b is really a single element of the group - you can multiply elements together any which way, and the result is always just some other element. Of course, some of the elements might get a bit more difficult to think about or describe than others! So in this case, a*b is a flip then rotate. That is still a symmetry operation and a member of the group.

What's curious to me is that a*b seems to be a generator of the group for a 36 spoke wheel... but not for a 32 spoke wheel! If b**8=1, then (a*b)**8 is just 1. There need to be an odd number of 4 spoke clusters for there to be a generator of the group!

All this got me to take a closer look at the spoke pattern on my wheels!

Andybg

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 03:42:19 pm »
I am starting to think that some of the people on here have a little too much time on their hands.

This is the kind of thing that happens when your bike gets too reliable and you can't find anything that needs tweeking

LOL

Andy

JWestland

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 03:44:31 pm »
Ah OK I see what you mean now, flip twice and we are back to Wheel One. (instead of Square one, that's {e,a,b,c} direct with {r,s,t,v} :P

It gets worse with fancy spoke patterns...what's wrong with tricross ;D

Have you heard of the Counting Theorem to calculate how many possible symmetries you can make? Eg I have a cube, and I have two colors to paint it with, how many can I make w/o making the same cube?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnside%27s_lemma

Group theory is great fun. For me at least. Me and Analysis don't really get on atm.

Exam 18 June...M208.

Lol Andy I was building up a vintage Ciocc, well am, stretching tubulars as we speak. Only time now cos I hunted down all the parts :D
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 07:13:46 pm »
Exam 18 June...M208.

Good luck. Don't let those groupies back you into a corner. You got them surrounded in your wheel.

Andre Jute

JimK

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 07:21:45 pm »
Ooops, this wheel symmetry group is not commutative! So my blathering about a*b being a generator, that is totally bogus.

a*b*a*b = 1 because if you flip the wheel, rotate a bit clockwise, flip it again, then rotate again a bit clockwise... the two rotations just cancel each other out!

Yeah, good luck on your exam! Don't make the silly mistakes that I do!

JWestland

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Re: Here's the science
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 09:47:13 am »
Exams you get set questions...no surprises ;)

What's purple and commutes...
...an Abelian Grape.

I'll get my Moebius coat, except I'm not sure what side to put it on.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)