Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: sd on May 27, 2014, 11:30:29 am
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I loved them when I used them comfort was unbelievable but puncture puncture puncture. Now I don't want to hear about you never having had a puncture in million miles, I used them and got punctures galore maybe where I cycle I don't know. Now I believe they have improved the puncture protection? But anyone ever tried to add to it? I was thinking of lining the inside. Taking an old inner tube cut in half length ways. Then folded in half and glued around the inside of the tube? Daft idea?
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SD if you really want to avoind the dreaded puncture then buy schwalble marathon plus near enough bomb proof ,i dont like them myself rather have the supreams.
jags
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He's trying to turn his Big Apples into Marathon Plus, Jags, by glueing in a rubber layer. The rubber layer in the Marathon Plus is 6mm thick though: that's a lot of tubes glued in, and bound to stiffen the tyre enough to interfere with the ride, quite possibly to the extent of ruining the ride of the Big Apples. It would depend on how much of the ride of Big Apple is from the pure volume of air inside, how much from a soft sidewall compared to the Marathon Plus, and how much from a more flexible rolling surface in the absence of the Plus's thick rubber band which gives it such extraordinary puncture protection. A guess, but only a guess, I'm willing to hazard is that the soft sidewall will have a surprisingly large influence, so that a stiffering of the rolling surface won't matter so much until it is quite thick.
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why would he bother Andre just get new tyres problem solved. ;D ;D
jags.
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Have Marathon Plus on my Thorn and a spare pair which I will use on my new bike. I have just worn out one pair. The short amount of time I used big apple made me miss the comfort. They were lovely!!
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SD the supreams are great ;)
jags
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why would he bother Andre just get new tyres problem solved. ;D ;D
jags.
Sure, Jags; there are several kinds of Big Apple protection barriers available -- list at http://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour.html when you tick the "balloon" box -- including the 3mm natural rubber layer on the Big Apple Plus, a sort of a mongrel Big Apple out of a Marathon Plus. All SD has to do is spend the money. But he's trying to do it on the cheap with tyres he already has and took off for some reason only he knows.
Also, we don't necessarily know that the other versions of the Big Apple will ride as well as the beloved standard Big Apple, or the even more supple but now obsolete Big Apple Liteskin which I recommended for years, and of which I have a stock laid in to see me out.
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Andre just speaking of tyres, have you ever tried the grand bios?.
i've only ever tried schwalble plus and supreams.out of all the tyres ive tried on the sherpa the supreams was way the best.
jags.
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Those Grande somethings are jumped-up Paselas, but I don't do narrow tyres at all; I have no roadie background whatsoever, and when I came into cycling I took one look at the 15mm tyres on the so-called "best bike" at the LBS, and said, "Are you having me on?" I started around 37mm, with Contis (rubbish that punctured all the time) and kept getting wider tyres, meanwhile discovering Schwalbe, moved through a Marathon Plus phase -- at least they didn't puncture, and on my lanes they were faster than anything else -- and eventually made a study of bike tyres and designed a bike around Big Apples from the ground up. I couldn't get my bike built but found a Utopia designed and built on the same principles, and have been very comfortable since, thank you. I'm not looking for different tyres and, if I were, I'd probably go for a very near relative of the Big Apples, like the Supremes you fancy so much.
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Sure, Jags; there are several kinds of Big Apple protection barriers available -- list at http://www.schwalbe.com/en/tour.html when you tick the "balloon" box -- including the 3mm natural rubber layer on the Big Apple Plus, a sort of a mongrel Big Apple out of a Marathon Plus. All SD has to do is spend the money. But he's trying to do it on the cheap with tyres he already has and took off for some reason only he knows.
Also, we don't necessarily know that the other versions of the Big Apple will ride as well as the beloved standard Big Apple, or the even more supple but now obsolete Big Apple Liteskin which I recommended for years, and of which I have a stock laid in to see me out.
I am not trying to do it on the cheap as I sold the big apples ages ago. I just love the puncture protection of the Schwalbes Marathon Plus I am trying to mimic it on the big Apple. And I have already said why I took them off. The constant punctures often around 2am on the way back from the pub when it was bucketing down. That can be boring at times!
PS don't assume we all have the same money available. I am living on a relatively small pension. My aim in life is to buy £400 worth of goods with my £200 income!!
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I bought my Big Apples in bulk together with my bike and got them for the wholesale price. The first set has lasted over 7000km and is heading for 10,000km. That makes them cheap tyres compared to the Contis I used until about a dozen years ago, which just didn't last.
But if you have to buy new Big Apples anyway to glue half-tubes in them for extra protection, then you may as well do your homework, discover that there are several new kinds of Big Apples that have crossbred with the Marathon Plus, and thus have the same protection. I don't imagine they would cost all that much more either new or secondhand than the plain Big Apples without the extra protection. Also, some Schwalbe tyres under other names are also balloons, and some of them look (and possibly work) like Big Apples with different treads for different purposes. The thing you want to look for is the sidewall off the old Big Apple Liteskin, which Schwalbe applied to at least some of the new range.
The Supreme that is very popular with people here may in fact suit.
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SD, Mr Tuffy's tire savers work well as anti-puncture inserts. They're inexpensive and seem to work. Years ago, I used them successfully on the puncture-happy streets of New York City (and we lived in Da Bronx, mind, not the now-carefully-swept streets of Manhattan) (though even the latter weren't so carefully swept, back in the day).
With apologies, I've lost track of what bike you ride. If it's a Raven, and you're riding mostly on sealed/tarmac roads, the 1.6 Supremes have a good following (and from my very brief acquaintance, feel, well, superb and maybe even supreme.) There is an extended, ongoing, frequently funny and just-a-wee-bit-obsessive debate on crazyguyonabike on tires, especially about the puncture resistance & other qualities of various Schwalbes -- just set aside an afternoon and do a search for "Marathon Tour Plus".
Jags and Andre, there's some interesting commentary on Grand Bois and Compass Tires in the "Bicycle Quarterly" networks, and some on crazyguy, celebrating the ride qualities (comfort and handling) qualities and speed of wider tires with flexible sidewalls. I know the speed thing may not be such a priority for touring bikes, but even some of the dedicated longdistance touring riders/writers on crazyguy are arguing the case for Grand Bois and Compass tires as touring tires. (And make a distinction between Panasela and the Grand Bois/Compass variants -- as did my LBS, interestingly enough: they no longer carry the Panaselas, 'cos of too many sidewall problems, but do sell Grand Bois as a top-of-the-line tire.)
Not sure when I'll wear out my Supremes, but I'd like to try the Compass 26 x 1.75's.
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Fill the inner tubes with slime or similar. It worked 50 years ago and still works today. (Many years ago son's cheapo mountain bike was plagued with punctures so I filled the tubes with slime. No problems after that. When he sold it the buyer changed the tyres & tubes and rang and asked what the green stuff was that was "leaking" out of the tubes was it toxic ! Apparently there were six punctures in the tubes all self sealed.
Either that or Marathon Plus's
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if i could afford it i would get the 700x28 grand bios .they are hand made quality tyres that rides like a tub.i rode tubs for years fantastic tyre and ride .seems tubeless is the way to go these days but cant afford new wheels ;D ;D.
i reckon puncture are down to bad luck a fella could go for years puncture free .
jags.
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jags, Have a look at the 700c x 38 Compass tires here: http://www.compasscycle.com/tires_700C.html
Not cheap, Schwalbe territory, and probably way too skinny for Andre, but when I replace the Vittoria Randonneur Pro's on my Eclipse (next year? -- haven't even ridden my Eclipse this year, yet) I'll look at these.
Bike Touring News in Boise, Idaho (some distance due east of where Dan lives in Oregon) has a good newsletter with reports of rides in, um, a testing variety of conditions. A couple years ago they did a cross-country test of three different tires that makes for interesting reading: 2 Schwalbes & a Grand Bois Hetre. Here the opening link: http://biketouringnews.com/touring-bicycles/a-trio-of-tough-top-notch-tires/
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thanks john i'll look at that tomorrow right now its bedtime. ;)
cheers
jags.
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Thanks for the interesting links, John. You're right, these days my idea of a skinny tyre is... 47mm. If it ain't least 50mm wide, and it requires more than 2bar of pressure, it doesn't warrant an introduction to my backside, even on the isolating far side of the three helical springs on a Brooks B73.
The main thing that strikes me, even before comfort, is how rarely modern tyres puncture.
I thought I heard, probably on this forum, when the Grand Bois first came out that they used Pasela carcases precisely for the suppleness of their sidewalls.
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Here's another link on the "Pana-tires", Andre: https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum/board/message/?o=1&thread_id=556504&page=1&nested=0&v=1G
Post #14 describes how the Grand Bois & Compass tires are related to but differ from Panaracers/Panaselas. The writer, David Cambon, is usually very well informed on the tech side of his posts. (That quality doesn't disturb, still less banish, a well-honed sense of Suitable Occasions for a Rant, nor his gift for hyperbole that he needs to exercise now & then.)
Your disdain for anything below your 50 mm threshold has put you well ahead of most of us on the curve w.r.t. plump/plush tires, though the Big Fat Ones fitted to 29ers may have elbowed their way past you by now.
Cheers, J.
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Thanks for the links, John. I do like intelligent, well-spoken people exercising their obsessions, much like walking their poodles, and with approximately the same result, road hazard here and there. I'll believe that a Grand Bois tyre is not a Panasela with a vanity imprint as and when I receive an independent lab report with a structural and chemical analysis, not a few bicyclists' subjective impressions. I enjoyed the comparison to dear Grant, though it is unfair to dismiss him as merely a salesman. He's another obsessive who has thought his thing through to the logical end and acted on it. And he's a far more agreeable writer than Heine, who lectures.
As for the hostility in that thread to puncture-proof tyres, no matter how elegantly expressed, and the barely veiled claim that they must perforce be slower, technically it's nonsense spouted by wishful thinkers fighting a rearguard action. Tyres aren't about the street corner myths that arose in the largely uneducated ur-history of bicycling, but about achievable point-to-point times, and any time one spends fixing flats one isn't cycling, merely indulging masochism. Anyway, the most interesting thing is that Heine knows it: despite the rhetoric, the width of those Grand Bois tyres increases by leaps and bounds, almost by the minute. Next a protection layer will creep in, and be declared to have some magic quality, kevlar rubbed on the thighs of virgin cyclists at the full moon. Shortly afterwards the Grand Bois brand will emanate from a Schwalbe factory. Want to indulge in a small wager? Ten bucks that within two years the Grand Bois acquire a protection layer?
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I have 700C Panaracers Kevlar tire inserts I'm not using at all.
Can post them to you if you want?
(my commute is through a glassbin so Kevlar all the way for me...)
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Thanks, Andre. Tires seem to bring out cyclists' obsessions like few other topics, eh? CGOAB threads on stoves, helmets & tents come close, though. Cambon's rants about Marathon Tour Pluses are legendary, and the subject of others' verbal nudges in the ribs. (Though I enjoy his denunciations of Canada's federal gummint as a "thuggish petro-theocracy".) There's obviously a market for Puncture-Proofness Above All Else, however.
a Grand Bois tyre
I keep waiting for a torrent of bad puns related to this brand name. Its bilingual roots may be an obstacle. Reckon we could start with "the tire that rolls softly but carries a big schtick."
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SD, Mr Tuffy's tire savers work well as anti-puncture inserts. They're inexpensive and seem to work. Years ago, I used them successfully on the puncture-happy streets of New York City (and we lived in Da Bronx, mind, not the now-carefully-swept streets of Manhattan) (though even the latter weren't so carefully swept, back in the day).
With apologies, I've lost track of what bike you ride. If it's a Raven, and you're riding mostly on sealed/tarmac roads, the 1.6 Supremes have a good following (and from my very brief acquaintance, feel, well, superb and maybe even supreme.) There is an extended, ongoing, frequently funny and just-a-wee-bit-obsessive debate on crazyguyonabike on tires, especially about the puncture resistance & other qualities of various Schwalbes -- just set aside an afternoon and do a search for "Marathon Tour Plus".
Jags and Andre, there's some interesting commentary on Grand Bois and Compass Tires in the "Bicycle Quarterly" networks, and some on crazyguy, celebrating the ride qualities (comfort and handling) qualities and speed of wider tires with flexible sidewalls. I know the speed thing may not be such a priority for touring bikes, but even some of the dedicated longdistance touring riders/writers on crazyguy are arguing the case for Grand Bois and Compass tires as touring tires. (And make a distinction between Panasela and the Grand Bois/Compass variants -- as did my LBS, interestingly enough: they no longer carry the Panaselas, 'cos of too many sidewall problems, but do sell Grand Bois as a top-of-the-line tire.)
Not sure when I'll wear out my Supremes, but I'd like to try the Compass 26 x 1.75's.
Thorn Raven Enduro and if I ever get home to Lincolnshire again:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301177226491?redirect=mobile
I looked on Schwalbe and there big Apple Plus has 3mm of protection while Marathon plus has 6mm but are not all that comfortable compared to big apple. Just looking for away of improving there puncture protection.
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Just looking for away of improving there puncture protection
Going for the comfort of the Big Apples make sense to me. For puncture protection, maybe try slime in one tire, and a saver strip (Mr Tuffy's or the Panaracer's kevlar) in the other?
(Sidebar comment: NY, a.k.a. The Big Apple has a lot of qualities, good & bad and few that are indifferent. "Comfort" is a word that I wouldn't associate with Manhattan, though--& I say this as a fairly regular visitor and a sometime resident. But then, I'm just a country boy, so what would I know about The Right Brand Name for a bike tire?)
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I have 700C Panaracers Kevlar tire inserts I'm not using at all.
Can post them to you if you want?
(my commute is through a glassbin so Kevlar all the way for me...)
If you're speaking to me, Jawine, thank you kindly but I'm a balloon fundamentalist (just like those Grand Bois fundies I was condemning yesterday -- I just do hypocrisy more elegantly).
Like you I have hardly-to-half-worn tyres hanging on the wall, in my case Marathon Plus and Bontrager Satellite Elite Hardcase, which is functionally the same tyre and may have come from the same molds, same way the Grand Bois are really a new tyre from the Pasela molds.
ASIDE: It's getting harder and harder to give away 700C tyres. At times it seems as if the whole world has gone 26in. The only full-size bikes I see are veterans people have inherited, or the winter training bikes of the guys in the peloton that rides past my door.
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They're inserts only...for non-reinforced tires.
Luckily the panaracer pasela TG stop nearly all so never fitted them.
MTB all seem to go 29" AKA 700c now...
...and 650 making a return on small track/road frames where it really makes sense for big companies that keep geometry the same independent of size.
The more things change...
(I really had to get new tires for Thornie though as the threads were literally unravelling..)
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Sorted
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191207436881
And for added puncture protection
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121354825167?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Will probably sell the tyres?
Will try without puncture protection, then with.
Note none of these items have arrived yet. Sometimes sellers simply refuse to sell. Although the Big Apple seller accepted my offer (£30) so he is unlikely to renege.
Forgot to mention bike arrived with a Marathon Supreme on the front and a Camel (made in Thailand) mountain bike tyre on the back. He couldn't find anything else while he was on tour. The Supreme does not appear to be that comfortable although it could be the pressure as it is on maximum. Or/and the aluminium frame. Although can't say I notice much difference between steel and an old Aluminium bike I have had for 15 years.
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All arrived will try and fit today sod the with and without puncture protection. I will fit with. The flat away feels like felt so hopefully will make no difference..... other than improved puncture protection!
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Damn damn damn. Tried to put big apples on but would not fit back. Catching on the Dutch rim loc, They are 2.35" and only just catching. Bought them 2nd hand barely used. Will obviously work front. Is there a significant difference in the feel when you go narrow? 2.15 for instance? The bike has a supreme on front 2" that's going on the back for now and a big apple on front. Took of Thai Camel mountain bike tyre on back so not putting that back on. No mountain bike tyre to match it anyway.
Bugger I even had flat aways in as puncture protection. Ideas anyone?
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I have changed my mind on aluminium v steel. My Thorn is less harsh/hard than Travelmaser Aluminium. Tried my old batterd aluminium still comfy ride??
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Changed my mind about rear tyre. Difficult to change rear tyre Rohloff (thinking about in dark and rain etc . so put ATB marathon plus on. Got a flat tyre while it was on the bike stand..... How! Put the supreme on. Did an oil change at the same time and gave the chain good clean. With a bit of luck I will remember to oil it!
All that messing about not enough time to go to pub...devastated!
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Went to use the bike Saturday... the Supreme had puncture. 2 tyres get punctures on the bike stand. Now understand why first one got one, it had a large thorn it but the Swalbe Supreme? I took it of the front it didn't have one when I took it off.
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maybe the tyres lewisnoble is selling would suit you better.a lot of the world touring lads loved them saying they were the best tyre ever ,schwalble done make them anymore as far as i know.maybe they were to bullitt proof
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worth making sure the rim tape is solid. If a spoke end were to be exposed, that could give you punctures on the stand with two different tires.
a genuine nuisance any which way!
I just put 55 mm Marathon Almotion tires on my Nomad. My fenders are SKS P55 and the clearance is a bit tight. Bits of gravel rattle around in that little gap and don't quite get stuck but hmmm not pleasant anyway. Could be just my mind playing tricks but the extra 5 mm does seem to add a bit more cushion on the rocky trails!
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maybe the tyres lewisnoble is selling would suit you better.a lot of the world touring lads loved them saying they were the best tyre ever ,schwalble done make them anymore as far as i know.maybe they were to bullitt proof
Who? Is he on this forum? Thanks
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Why don't you get a pair of these on very special offer from sjs. Bit of a no brainer for the price!
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/schwalbe-marathon-extreme-folding-tyre-26-x-225-inch-%2857-559%29-prod19498/
Job done! Next?
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lewisnoble here!! In the forum as lewisjnoble.
The Marathon XR I am selling are probably best described as heavy duty touring tyres, now replaced in the Schwalbe lineup with the Mondial I think. The XRs had a reputation for being very strong and puncture resistant - I doubt if anything is puncture proof, but the Xrs are syupoosed to be as near that as you can get.
See my post in Bike Bits for Sale.
By the look of them, the Extremes are more for heavy duty off road touring?
Lewis 07980 202830
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The XRs are designed not to fail in use.
The ride is a bit agricultural compared to something like Duremes, but then the XRs are just about bullet proof.
I have a son who can break anything, apparently without effort.
I put XRs on his touring bike and they are coexisting just fine.
Recommended if you want strong, long lasting tyres to carry a heavy load.
julk.
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A good description, julk - the Duremes certainly roll along better than the XRs, but will probably not take as much abuse. I also have a son who wears things out quickly!
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Why don't you get a pair of these on very special offer from sjs. Bit of a no brainer for the price!
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/schwalbe-marathon-extreme-folding-tyre-26-x-225-inch-%2857-559%29-prod19498/
Job done! Next?
To big. Want to use big apple anyway. The 2.35 is just catching the Dutch bike lock. So will buy 2.15 big apple. Putting the Supreme on the back for now. I begrudge paying a fair price so will bide my time for 2.15s
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2.15in Big Apples is what will fit anyway. It's been in the literature for years. I remember it distinctly as it is what first attracted my attention to Thorn, that unllke other touring bike makers, they offer decent width forks.
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No talking about the Travelmaser. The Thorn Ravern Enduro will easy take 2.35 but it doesn't need them. I run Marathon Plus on the Thorn still comfortable. Its the Travelmaster that needs a bit of sus. Anyway fitted big apple front and Supreme on back. Much better feel but very odd, it felt like I was noticeable more upright? Could it be that there is a significant enough difference between the two tyres to make me feel more upright.... weird!
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The Thorn Ravern Enduro will easy take 2.35
Are you sure? With mudguards? Have you tried it?
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The Raven Enduro is a mountain bike and they were on when I bought it (second hand) They were old ones very poor puncture protection. I could put lead wheels on the Thorn and it would still be comfortable.
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Are you sure? With mudguards? Have you tried it?
checked again no mudguards 1.75" Marathon on. Can push my finger and thumb passed the rear tyre. So will probably will take 2.35