Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: Matt2matt2002 on December 19, 2013, 07:01:49 pm
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Hello folks.
Question time again.
Had an Axa security lock fitted to my Raven since buying it in Feb. second hand.
No problems with it and use it as part of my belt and braces approach.
Today while doing my pre ride check I noticed that it had shifted slightly. Looking from behind it has slipped to the right slightly.
I was about to set off on a ride so just took a few snaps to post and show here.
As I arrived at my destination I tried to lock the Axa and the bolt would not lock.
When I checked,I saw that the inner sliding bolt was hitting the rim of the tire.
Since I was half way through my ride I decided not to fiddle with it, I case it locked and I was unable to open the Axa and continue my ride return home.
On arriving home I checked again and the bolt would not slide across.
It was dark so bike parked in shed.
Also, computer access is down so unable to load pictures.
Anyone had this shifting problem with the Axa?
If I can straighten it up, the bolt should then slide across.
But what about long term situation?
Do these need adjusting from time to time?
Bike has not been damaged or frame altered.
Pretty sure the Axa was not tampered with.
Matt
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Hi Matt!
How did you mount the AXA Defender...using the little metal windup straps, or the ATB mounts with the "cup hooks"?
Observant viewers of my Nomad gallery will see the AXA Defender missing from my Nomad. It mounted and worked well enough in nearly all situations, but was not happy when locked on a 30% grade holding-back the combined 83kg weight of the loaded Nomad and trailer (with a total of 26l of water and extra food on a desert-simulation run) overnight -- it stretched my modified cup-hooks open.Though it was fine in all normal use, this combination of circumstances proved problematic for me.
I am casting about for another solution.
Trelock are about to introduce a new model (450) designed for widely spaced seatstays and balloon (2.0in and wider) tires. I have already sent for their mounts, which are a beautifully crafted solution that looks as if it will be very secure. Unfortunately, they are spaced to wide to accommodate the slots in the AXA Defender when mounted to the Nomad. They would have been terrific on Sherpa, a ready-made, turnkey solution. An Abus Amparo as JimK and Il Padrone use is a good solution, but I prefer a model with a key that remains captive in the open lock, so that is why I am considering other options.
Matt, getting back to your present dilemma, yes, the lock needs to be done up firmly regardless of how it is mounted. If it is the least bit loose, repeatedly unlockings will cause it to "clock" (rotate) a bit with each locking cycle, causing the situation you describe. When you throw the bolt, you are working against spring tension, and when you release it, the same spring propels the bolt against its stops. Eventually, the lot can shift if it was not tight to begin with, and this can cause the bolt to foul the rim. And yes, it is a good idea to check it periodically. I applied LocTite to my ATB "cup hook" threads before screwing on the nuts and all remained well throughout with no loosening after the initial tightening.
The solution is to pop off the mounting covers, loosen the nuts or straps a bit more, realign, and then tighten firmly (but not knuckle-busting tight). I'd suggest using a drop of LocTite on the fasteners. At any rate, realigning and retightening the lock on its mounts should put things right again.
Hope this helps.
All the best,
Dan.
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but was not happy when locked on a 30% grade holding-back the combined 83kg weight of the loaded Nomad and trailer (with a total of 26l of water and extra food on a desert-simulation run) overnight
I'm really not sure why one would need to do this. I always move my bike onto flattish ground for parking, especially for overnight.
An Abus Amparo as JimK and Il Padrone use is a good solution, but I prefer a model with a key that remains captive in the open lock, so that is why I am considering other options.
The Abus Amparo can be purchased in removable-key or key-retention versions. I have the removable-key as I personally prefer to have it on my person with other keys at all times.
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I'm really not sure why one would need to do this. I always move my bike onto flattish ground for parking, especially for overnight.
Dinnawanna, Pete, but it was a long slope at the end of the day and the semi-level ledge for my little one-man tent wasn't also wide enough for the bike, let alone bike and trailer.The Abus Amparo can be purchased in removable-key or key-retention versions.
Boy, this would be great news if it also includes the version that mounts with the little plastic worm-drive straps. I have tried and tried to find the key-retaining model in that version, but Abus tell me the universal-strap model only comes in the key-ejecting version. Hope springs eternal; I'll fire off another query.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan.
Straps fitting I think
Pop off the covers? Never done that. Will it be easy and obvious, when I take a look tomorrow morning?
Tighten the straps? Easy to do? Do I need a tool?
I can see how repeated use can cause the thing to shift. Thanks for the explanation.
So you don't use yours now?
Matt
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Thanks Dan.
Welcome!Straps fitting I think
Pop off the covers? Never done that. Will it be easy and obvious, when I take a look tomorrow morning?
If straps, then no cosmetic covers to deal with or pop off. Tighten the straps? Easy to do? Do I need a tool?
Yes, yes, and...yes! Just use a flat-bladed screwdriver on the little screw that winds-up the straps. If it is held on by the ATB ("cup hook") mount, then you will need to remove two cosmetic covers on the face using a thin-bladed screwdriver tip in the slots. Once they're removed, just use a socket to tighten the nuts, snap the cosmetic covers back in place, and Done.So you don't use yours now?
Only temporarily on the Nomad. I miss it terribly and want a replacement suited to my needs soonest. The old AXA Defender will either wind up on my rando bike or possibly posted for sale on the Forum. Not sure yet. I've got a lot of irons in the fire at the moment and have not given the matter the attention it needs.
All the best,
Dan.
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Dinnawanna, Pete, but it was a long slope at the end of the day and the semi-level ledge for my little one-man tent wasn't also wide enough for the bike, let alone bike and trailer.
Well, just my routine but at the end of the riding day the first thing that happens is the gear gets off-loaded and stored in my tent vestibule. If I was worried about security of the bcycle the last thing I'd be doing would be to leave my bags on the bike.
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Thanks Dan & co.
Work commitments make it unlikely I will tackle the problem today.
But I will report back over the weekend.
Matt
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Thanks Dan & co.
Work commitments make it unlikely I will tackle the problem today.
But I will report back over the weekend.
Matt
Ha ha,what a long weekend that was!
Took another look at the Axa and still at a loss.
The covers you mention, Dan, are they the 2 either side. Vertical, and grey?
Willmthey pop off?
The 2 *straps* I can see are 2 very small bands. Metal? They don't look adjustable from the outside.
Sorry to ask again but I love the Axa and don't want to ruin anything.
Securing the Raven just doesn't seem right without popping on the Axa.
Matt
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Hang on a bit, Matt, and I'll have photos I can post that will make it clearer than words.
All the best,
Dan. (...who thinks pictures really are sometimes worth 1,000 words)
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Matt, the sun came out and I was able to take a couple photos that should help you get your AXA Defender lock tight on the seatstays once again.
I'll probably over-explain this, but the intent is to explain the "whys" and so make it easier to do. This would be so quick'n'easy to explain if we were talking over coffee or tea at the corner shop. ;)
Okay...
Photo 1 (below) shows the lock with the cover plates I was talking about (the left one removed, the right-side one in place). These are only used if the lock is bolted on to a bike (typically a Dutch bike) that is equipped with mounting bosses on the seatstays /or/ if one is using the nutted ATB mounts (which I have called "cup hooks" 'cos that's what they look like). The covers are cosmetic and simply cover the mounting bolts or nuts and make the lot look more finished. If you need to remove the covers, a gentle pry with a small-blade slotted screwdriver in the slot will pop them free. They snap back into place. I don't think your lock has these.
Photo 2 (below) shows the setup I think you have, with what I call a strap-winder on the left, and a cover plate on the right. Yours would have two strap-winders (because the winder /or/ the cover plate fit in the same space, you can only use one or the other, but not both at once).
Photo 3 (below) shows the strap-winder mechanism with a strap in place. You can purchase straps separately, winders separately, or in pairs. AXA is good about making spares available. They have a great key-registration program and key replacement service available as well. You can buy fixed or spring-loaded keys. I bought one of the latter so it wouldn't be as likely to wear a hole in my pants pockets or scratch things up in my handlebar bag. I'm "careful" (frugal) and my stuff lasts a long time 'cos I take care of it)
Now, here's how it works. The strap-winder is a worm-drive gear mechanism (a bit like a windlass) that fits in the well on each side of the lock. The anchor for the strap goes in the slot in the lock and the end of the strap loops around the seatstay and goes back into a slot in the shaft that is tightened by the screw (like the rabbit going 'round the bush and down the hole when tying knots). The worm drive allows the screw to turn the shaft, but prevents the shaft from turning the screw.
Turn the screw and you tighten the straps.
Your lock is loose, for whatever reason. It needs to be tightened. If you have the little covered metal straps holding the lock 'round the 'stays, then you also have the strap-winders. Position the lock where you want it and place a slotted screwdriver in the screw slot and turn till the lock is tight.
That's all you need to do. Don't over do it, or there's a potential to damage the mechanism or strap anchors. Really firm but not knuckle-busting should do the job. If you overdo it, replacement parts are available reasonably.
I hope this helps; turning the screws should see the lock tight for you quickly and easily. If you run into problems, give a shout. Let me know how it goes.
All the best,
Dan.
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many thanks Dan
Here are a few snaps of my own set up
Do we have the same Axa?
If so, what do I take off? The grey side parts?
Matt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BmZAtF7ENfk/Usg29UxDUvI/AAAAAAAAAok/7X39dUg2UK0/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014+005.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8SlEmZv5pLQ/Usg2vq5jQXI/AAAAAAAAAoc/Y4hiEcUnqaQ/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014+004.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mh3AieumvN8/Usg9S0E2WzI/AAAAAAAAAo0/ZYlN6x1DOhc/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014+006.jpg)
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Hi Matt!
Ooh! Nice, clear closeup photos; well done.
From what I can see, we have the same AXA Defender except for color (they are even available in neon colors, but your black-and-silver is most common, followed by my all-black). Yours is mounted with the covered stainless straps, whereas I mounted mine with the ATB mounting kit.
Your photos show the lock from the back side (viewed from the rear of the bike).
If it had covers, they would be on the front (looking back from the seat tube or bottom bracket) as shown in my photos above.
Yours won't have covers 'cos it has the mounting straps, which means it has the strap-winders mounted where the covers would be and you can't fit covers and strap-winders in the same space at once.
So. Just approach the lock from the front and it will look like the photos of mine. You'll see the one screw-slot on each side where you can fit a screwdriver to tighten the mechanism that will tighten the straps after realigning the lock. Do that an all will be fine.
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I do notice in the photo, your rear mudguard is held in place by a bent clip. It seems to be working fine, but if you ever wish to do so, there's the option to drill a hole in the 'guard and fit a 5mm bolt directly into the threaded mount on the underside of the seatstay bridge. Nuts and washers can be used as spacers; this is how Thorn mounts the mudguards and they are very secure, rattle-free and easy to remove/replace as a result. No need to bother if your present setup is working alright.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Up ended the Old Bird and have a much better view now. Just as you described.
However my screws don't tighten the bands.
I think I understand you correctly. As the screws turn then the grub screw (?) Should turn and tighten the metal strap?
Well there appears to be no contact between the 2.
Not sure I want to proceed without further advice. Things reset to how they were but as you noted, when the bolt slides across forces want to turn the whole set up.
Bike ridable so no urgency. But sure do miss the security the Axa provides my mental state when leaving the Raven alone
Matt
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Here are the pictures I took an hour ago
Upside down for a better view
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5-FTIvNdNms/UsluMJeB5fI/AAAAAAAAAp4/y_fqiGnPzAg/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014a+004.jpg)
Turning the screw does not engage the grub screw
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ti9iCqC_ixU/UslsgI7peAI/AAAAAAAAApU/8CVwvCiDGb8/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014a+001.jpg)
Another view
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x4CH7Oeu4l4/UsltT6OVG2I/AAAAAAAAApc/z6Lp28-aGpI/w598-h797-no/bikejan2014a+002.jpg)
Here I have removed the screw. You can see I have wiggled the Axa down, so the bolt has plenty of room to clear the rim. However it wont stay put coz the bands wont tighten
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qvLbFSlS2K8/Uslt7ReS_QI/AAAAAAAAApw/fyvDOKCO6zE/w598-h797-no/bikejan2014a+005.jpg)
Screw back in but not grip
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7OwcuYtldgk/UsluZ_XTerI/AAAAAAAAAqA/gVk8t0dEl4Y/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014a+006.jpg)
Am I missing something? I have seen this set up elsewhere and can understand the concept but for whatever reason it doesnt work.
Is it strange that both sides appear to have gone at the same time?
Matt
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What about using a couple of cable-ties around your brake bridge and across the top of the lock body, to hold it down and in the correct position? I had to do this with my Abus Amparo as it was wobbling a bit against the frame despite the big plastic straps being fully tightened.
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Nice idea. Thanks.
A kinda get me home solution. I like that kind
Matt
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Hi Matt!
Nice, nice job with the photos!
Boy, I don't mind admitting I'm baffled here as well. As you can see from the photo I attached below, our strap-winders look the same, and mine works so yours should as well. If anything, your AXA's strap-winder castings are smoother than mine, and mine turns fine.
There's nothing obvious like a broken strap or a lost end or a worn worm drive pinion gear. The strap-winder assembly looks well-seated in its wells. The strap-end anchors are well seated. The worm gear looks a little high compared to the pinion gear (the one with thescrewdriver slot), but not excessively so; the pinion should still engage it.Is it strange that both sides appear to have gone at the same time?
I'm not sure, Matt; these things stay tight, mostly, unless there's a lot of forward force on them with the bolt thrown shut. Then, all that is usually needed is a simple tightening of the screws.
The strap-winders themselves are pretty foolproof. If the screws are turned the wrong way, nothing happens except the screw backs out. If turned the right way, they should tighten so there must be something we're missing in this case.
Good news is, the straps and strap-winder assemblies are available as inexpensive replacements and I believe I'd give it a fresh start if nothing in the way of an obvious fault comes to light.
Dunno, Matt. I'll have to give this some more thought, as a ready answer isn't coming to me. Anyone Out There with some additional suggestions?
All the best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan.
May I know how you removed your assembly?
I didn't try too hard but it didn't want to pop out easily.
I left it be, in case I damaged it.
Matt
I also tried to turn the ratchet with a screw driver blade. But it didn't want to budge.
This means the straps are on but not tight.
So the Axa is fixed to the bike!
Not sure I want to start cutting the sharps when they are right up against the frame stays.
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Decided to remove the Axa.
Screws would not turn ( mesh together) so took out the first short screw with a screwdriver and then prised off the longer of the 2 which then allowed me to remove the metal bands.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ymxriDSiPoI/Us_yxoLh8DI/AAAAAAAAA1k/LZZvhDxfpZk/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014b+002.jpg)
I have emailed the folk who supplied my replacement keys a few months ago.
(I then found the 'missing' keys, so I have 4 for the lock.)
And I have asked if they can supply replacement parts.
Not had a reply as I type.
Anyone obtained such parts? If so - when - where - how much?
Thanks folks
Matt
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Hi Matt!
Well done on getting the lock off. When it comes time to put it back on, this might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGYt7SDTZOo
Yes, replacement mounting straps and winders are available, either separately or as sets, and all for reasonable prices (£4 or less). That's how I purchased mine. I got mine from Cantitoe Road ( http://www.cantitoeroad.com/bike-locks/frame-locks-mounting-hardware/flexible-mounting-bracket-for-defender-frame-lock ) and Dutch Bike Bits (alternate ATB Kit here: http://www.dutchbikebits.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=52 ), but a number of online shops carry them. ReallyUsefulBikes in the UK has them for only £4.00 for the complete kit including strap-winders: http://www.reallyusefulbikes.co.uk/_shop/security/fitting-kit-for-axa-defender-locks/ A Google search for "AXA Defender Strap Mounting Kit" (no quotes) will get you what you need.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan.
I had done a search but hadn't turned up those links.
Are you using Google plus for.your searches?
:D
I will contact them when I get back from my weekend away.
All aong this problem I have followed the WWDD principle.
It usually gets me out of a jam.
Matt
WWDD principle?
What would Dan do.
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;D
All the best,
Dan.
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Just received today a pair of adjusting straps and screws for the Axa.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CPygw_6YM0c/UtbK-zTpyoI/AAAAAAAAA_I/AUBJKO2iMq4/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014d.jpg)
Really Useful Bikes from Bristol supplied them for £5.50. Including postage.
Arrived within 2 days.
Great service and a nice chat with with Bob - the owner.
When the weather improves I will attempt the fitting.
::)
Matt
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Wonderful news, Matt; very happy for you.
Just a tip in advance: When affixing the lock with these, it is helpful to fit both at once loosely and then tighten evenly, alternating. I used a couple small pieces of tape to hold the lock in place even (side-to-side and top-to-bottom) till I could tighten the straps evenly. Be sure to remove the tape promptly so it won't leave residue on your paint.
You'll do fine; no worries!
Best,
Dan.
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Mrs. Matt was out working this afternoon ( well, someone has to keep me in the custom I deserve ;) ) - so I had the house and kitchen to myself.
What better location to fix the new Axa straps?
Warm and dry.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-grkvezV0iOo/Utlb0Jc3eRI/AAAAAAAABBQ/px5YUNlFIHY/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+001.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-d-XSwT5CzPI/Utlb8yJYBZI/AAAAAAAABBY/dowCPvsJH9A/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+002.jpg)
Job done.
Many thanks for that Youtube link, Dan. Only problem I had was feeding the strap back into the mechanism. The brakes were in the way. On the Youtube clip there appeared to be no brakes!
With Mrs. Matt not due back from work for another 3 hours, this gave me time to check out the bottom bracket, chain and then peddles.
May I continue here, under the Axa thread?
Please move me, if appropriate.
Chain was slack so decided to move bottom bracket. Don't have that tool you mentioned Dan, so used a spanner and then levered the bracket sprocket adjusters with a big screw driver, to take up chain slack.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bWxCJyIatqE/UtlcU20q7tI/AAAAAAAABBg/YVPg0uIiVz8/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+003.jpg)
Screws removed in picture above. Am I correct in thinking that is is the small pointy bits that bite into the bottom bracket and stop it rotating? Don't sound right to me - but then I don't build bikes. :D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d1v4C4d4lx0/UtlcaFhyupI/AAAAAAAABBo/pFgSwV1qJYU/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+004.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G4JF5CGf1zU/UtlcoPt_BDI/AAAAAAAABBw/OucJlCfTH7s/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+005.jpg)
Picture above, you can see the adjusting mech. / cog. ( proper name? ) It's still covered in sand from yesterdays trip. :(
I had 2 or 3 goes at getting the chain tightened. First go - after the 2 bolts were tightened, the chain appeared to tighten up too much.
I tried again and the chain finished up too tight.
Third time lucky - it stayed as I wanted.
Is there a trick to this? What was I doing wrong? I set it correctly - not too tight - not too loose. And then when the bolts were done up - the chain had a lot less slack than I thought correct.
Does the inside of the bottom bracket ever need greasing? Mine rotated fine so I left well alone.
Next up was the pedals
MKS Lambda. Had them 3 years. No problems. Like them a lot. Plenty of grip and wide for my fat feet.
Discovered the end cap was missing from one of them.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Zdvo6wDbxv0/UtldCjk_oUI/AAAAAAAABCA/CpNYgL4JUSM/w958-h719-no/bikejan2014e+007.jpg)
Any thoughts on potential damage awaiting me, pedal wise?
Think the company Zyro imports them so will contact them tomorrow.
Could the bearings inside be damaged? They both spin well at the moment. The one with the missing cap has a dent in - so looks like it came off after a spill. :o
Many thanks folks for comments and in-put.
Matt
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Good to see your workshop has a kitchen attached! I also get a change in tension as I tighten the bolts. I find this less if I tighten each a bit at a time. Don't be afraid to tighten them well they just gouge into the aluminium which is thick enough at one side.
I do grease the Eccentric bottom bracket, mainly to prevent rust on the shell surfaces. The loss of the plastic caps off your pedals will allow water ingress. I'd bung loads of grease in and the find something as a temporary stopper.