Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Steve Lord on August 10, 2005, 09:49:01 am
-
I hardly think this is a new topic on this forum, but the question never goes away!
I hope to visiting SJS early in the New Year to order a Raven. I ought to get clear in my mind whether I want flat or dropped bars, but it's not been easy.
For years, I was thinking I would return to touring on flat bars for my next, and first decent bike. Perhaps its nostalgia for the early mountain biking days, but I liked the look, the controls being right at hand, and the robustness. Thorn seemed to be pushing drops for their bikes. Now the Raven's come out and Thorn are happier with the flat bar setup, so it seems, while I've come to realize that my wrists are way happier on my touring bike than my mountain bike.
Yet if I choose drops, am I giving up the dream of long tours in rough places like Tibet or Central Asia? On the grounds that my hands are basically happier on drops, probably not. But I feel I will be missing a lot of the advantages of the Rohloff- being able to change gear all the time, which I do a lot on my current STI-geared drops bike.
I realize this issue goes on and on, but any comforting or thought-provoking words from Raven riders that would help the decision would be appreciated. I have tried the Mk1 Comfort bar on my MTB. Perhaps the MTB cockpit is too stretched out, but the Comfort bar doesn't seem to do much for me.
thanks,
cheers,
Steve Lord
-
I have just bought a Mercury, which is essentially a custom Raven Sport Tour. I don't know if it's really worth paying the extra for the Mercury, but I feel better about it and that's the main thing. I decided to go for the straight bar and let the Thorn experience full scope to provide me with a fast bike. I did consider the drop bars and Accessory bar or HUBBUB, but thought I could manage with a stem angled down so that I could get the bars down to my usual position of considerably below the level of the saddle.I have added L-bend bar ends fitted inside the brake levers for a more dropped position which is fairly aerodynamic. I'm fairly happy with this, but it may be that I will need a more angled stem so that the straight bars are even lower down. I think that the Thorn people have sufficient experience that they can fit you up with either a Tour or a Sport.
Of course, only you can answer whether you can manage with straight bars, but I have several bikes including mountain, road with STI, racing and I'm very pleased with this Mercury. I have only done 200 miles so far, but I intend it to be my fast commuter right through the winter, 26 miles every day.
My advice is: stay with the Thorn stem, chainset and seat-pillar as they are quite aesthetically pleasing. I think I was right to go for the straight carbon bar, and the ceramic rims (although I don't know if they will last as long as claimed) which do provide single finger instant skids even on dry roads. I don't know if my XTR calipers are necessary, but they are very pleasing.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lord
I hardly think this is a new topic on this forum, but the question never goes away!
I hope to visiting SJS early in the New Year to order a Raven. I ought to get clear in my mind whether I want flat or dropped bars, but it's not been easy.
For years, I was thinking I would return to touring on flat bars for my next, and first decent bike. Perhaps its nostalgia for the early mountain biking days, but I liked the look, the controls being right at hand, and the robustness. Thorn seemed to be pushing drops for their bikes. Now the Raven's come out and Thorn are happier with the flat bar setup, so it seems, while I've come to realize that my wrists are way happier on my touring bike than my mountain bike.
Yet if I choose drops, am I giving up the dream of long tours in rough places like Tibet or Central Asia? On the grounds that my hands are basically happier on drops, probably not. But I feel I will be missing a lot of the advantages of the Rohloff- being able to change gear all the time, which I do a lot on my current STI-geared drops bike.
I realize this issue goes on and on, but any comforting or thought-provoking words from Raven riders that would help the decision would be appreciated. I have tried the Mk1 Comfort bar on my MTB. Perhaps the MTB cockpit is too stretched out, but the Comfort bar doesn't seem to do much for me.
thanks,
cheers,
Steve Lord
-
quote:
I don't know if my XTR calipers are necessary, but they are very pleasing.
Yes, like little bits of sculpture. And for the pleasure they give when you notice them again they are worth it and ultimately necessary.
I have XTR calipers on both the tandem and my Raven tour. I'd say it's also worth the extra (tenner when I did it, can't remember if that's each or for both, either way it doesn't now matter to me) for XTR levers over XT. I have XTR on the tandem and XT on the solo, and I must admit there is an indefinable something which I'm sure is more than just the label about the XTR levers which is more satisfying. Don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with the XT levers, they are a good quality product, but the XTR levers are nicer.
Sorry this post is not really about handlebars. I never got on with drops and having the bars too low gives me neck ache after 60 miles, so I'm more than happy with Thorn comfort bars and bar ends set at about saddle height.
-
It’s a tough choice.
I prefer drop bars on my other bikes but have narrow straight bars on my Raven.
(http://photos22.flickr.com/27560201_354c27e632_m.jpg)
The wide comfort bars were never an option, due to storage space.
The only time I miss drops is in a strong head wind, and I wonder how much difference it actually makes, it seems so much slower but the computer tells a different story.
Riding a Rohloff bike is different to a derailleur bike, it’s not just another way to do the same thing. It takes a bit of getting used to and I don’t think you’d get the full benefit unless the changer was always to hand. If they came up with a Rohloff brake/gear control for drops I’d be first in the queue, but it doesn’t look likely.
-
quote:
Originally posted by wtjs
I have just bought a Mercury, which is essentially a custom Raven Sport Tour.
You lucky man,any photos?
I've been commuting on my Raven for 9 months, the lack of maintenance is a joy[:D]
-
Yes, if anyone wants to see them, I'll take some photos. I've now done about 600 miles- commuting and working my way through the routes in 'Bowland Cycle Rides' a Lancashire tourist booklet. These are pretty hilly routes on fairly rough metalled roads, so I've given the bike a good test.
1 I think it performs like an audax bike- not as fast as a 'racing' 700c, but faster than a fast touring bike. Better than I expected for a flat bar bike.
2 Stealth it isn't! Even the sheep notice the noise in 7th gear.I've only cycled on my own so far, so I can't give a simultaneous comparison with a derailleur, but it's noisier alright. However, I now feel that the treacly feeling in 7th has gone even though the noise hasn't.
3 Much of the stress of gear changing is gone. You just change down as far as you need, without feeling 'I ought to be able to get up this on the middle chainring'.
4 Ceramic rims and V-brakes are excellent- going back to the STI levers and cantilevers makes me feel there's something wrong with them.
5 On rough roads, the carbon bars are just the job. I think it would be quite jarring to ride fast over these roads with 26x1.5s at 75psi and metal bars.
6 Rohloff say that oil can leak from the hub when it's on it's side. I left it overnight sideways in the Astra and not a drop leaked.
7 Anyone who, like me, doesn't like badges and stickers should ask SJS not to apply the Rohloff sticker on the hub- it's a great pain to get off!
quote:
Originally posted by PH
quote:
Originally posted by wtjs
I have just bought a Mercury, which is essentially a custom Raven Sport Tour.
You lucky man,any photos?
I've been commuting on my Raven for 9 months, the lack of maintenance is a joy[:D]
-
HI, I'm the OP, I'd certainly like to see your bike's setup - hope it gives me more creative ideas than just the "comfort" bar...
thanks.
-
Can't get pictures to insert-if you wish to send email addresses to me I can send photos in usual way
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lord
HI, I'm the OP, I'd certainly like to see your bike's setup - hope it gives me more creative ideas than just the "comfort" bar...
thanks.
-
quote:
Originally posted by wtjs
Can't get pictures to insert-if you wish to send email addresses to me I can send photos in usual way
WTJS's photos now posted in the Gallery (http://"http://www.sjscycles.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=580")
And very sporty it looks.
-
Hi Steve,
bar choice raises as much discussion as the panniers vs trailer debate on other lists ...
i can really only comment on what works for me, and can really only suggest a 'suck it and see' course, and hopefully you will strike it lucky first time ...
i have gone for flat bars on all my tourers as I find this more comfortable ... i know lots of folks out there wouldn't think of touring on anythign else but drop bars which works for them ...
drop bars won't limit you to terrain you can cover ... i went mountain biking on my Nomad when it had drop bars and it worked fine ...
my bikes: http://www.hoogie.co.nz/bikes/the_bikes.htm
good luck!
cheers,hoogie
-
Thing I always notice about drop bars is that most riders seem to spend most of their time riding on the bar tops or brake hoods, which is a lot less comfortable than having straight bars in the first place!
-
Has anyone considered 'butterfly' or Yuma type bars on a Raven (such as http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item426.htm)? Will the Rohloff gear changer fit on this type of bar?
-
I've never been a fan of those bars, though I did try some once - for about half an hour. Those Modolo anatomics are better, though. I think butterfly bars put your hands either too far forward or too far back. The back position, where the brakes are, seems the worst spot and no place to be on a fast downhill. Having seen typical riders who use these kinds of bars, I got the feeling they were designed for upright riders, which the back position would encourage.
-
'wjts', I am very interested to hear about your Mercury. I notice that the link for your pictures does not work.
Do you have a rack on the back? If so, is there enough heel clearance?
Sorry for taking over the drop/flats thread..
Many thanks, Ellis
-
quote:
Thing I always notice about drop bars is that most riders seem to spend most of their time riding on the bar tops or brake hoods, which is a lot less comfortable than having straight bars in the first place!
I have to dispute this. As stated before this is all about personal preference but riders who use drops do not generally use them because they are less comfortable than straight bars.
For me it is exactly the opposite. I can spend a whole day comfortably riding on the hoods or tops but only a couple of hours with straight bars.
-
This is now a very old thread but I thought I would add my 2p.
[rant mode on]
It bothers me that some people are choosing a flat bar not due to ergonomics but the aesthetics. Yes I do realise that the Rohloff does not look 'right' with drops. Yes I think that the ergonomics of changing gear is better with a flat bar. However the overall ergonomics (at least for me) of a drop bar is far superior. I find drops more comfortable, much better for climbing and more aerodynamic than flat bars.
There are times that I (personally) would go for a flat bar. If the bike was going to spend the majority of it life off-road I would want the increased leverage and faster gear change of a flat bar. Alternatively if I was regularly commuting through heavy traffic a head up position and increased visibility would switch me to a flat bar.
To those that are happier on flat bars anyway then all this doesn’t apply. BUT if you would normally be happier on drops than a flat then I would think very carefully before switching to a flat just because the Rohloff prefers it. I believe your riding position in more important that the fastest possible gear change or the ‘look’ of the bike.
[rant mode off]
For those that are considering drops a piece of advice Dia-Compe 287v brake levers are dreadful I wish there were an alternate lever for V brakes. I haven’t tried a travel agent but I have also heard bad things about them. My advice is to go with cantilever instead. (If anyone from Shimano or Avid read this please tell you design department to design a drop brake lever for V brakes they will have at least one sale!)
-
John this email isn't aimed at you however 2 questions
- If there was an integrated Rohloff shifter would you then want drops?
- If there were no such thing as integrated / bar end shifters and we were all still using shifters on the down tube OR grip shifters would you then want you Nomad to use a grip shift?
To me it seams strange to specify a bike on the basis of the best shifter position rather than the best riding position.
Caveats worth mentioning. I own a Raven Sport Tour (NOT the same as your Raven Tour). I don’t know if you are athletic or not but I defiantly like to get myself up to sweat every time I cycle. If the pace was slower I am not sure the bar would matter so much.
Final It doesn’t matter what you or I say (or think is best) as long as any newbie think carefully about their decision then I am happy.
-
I'm the OP on this thread, I just looked at my original post - I should have gone with my instincts and stuck with drops, sad to say, though my dissatisfaction with the flat bar setup only emerged on a long tour in East Tibet - comfort becomes almost the ONLY thing when you do 8-10 hour days in hard conditions like that. Around town, the Raven's been great, of course, and I had no complaints on an earlier tour in summer holiday conditions on Germany's Baltic coast. But grinding up long passes in China, I spent far too much time in the noisy lower gears of the Rohloff.
At this point I don't know whether to shell out for a cheaper drop bar bike such as Dawes' Ultra/Super/bog-standard Galaxy in addition, or part company with the Raven to fund that. I think my days of touring off-road are close to an end, so I would like to go back to that smooth drop bar touring bike feeling rather than the 'expedition' bike I opted for.
-
Hi Steve - are you sure you couldn't convert your Raven to drops? I believe freddered did just, that with mixed results, maybe you should PM him. I know the shifter location is a particular problem when you do this conversion, as the normal accessory bar will put the shifter to far forward. Solutions would be either the hubbub (http://"http://www.hubbub.com") bar end shifter or my unconventional approach of using a Minoura space grip (http://"http://www.sjscycles.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=644").
It may also be worth speaking to SJSC about 'upgrading' your frame. SJSC are normally very reasonable about such request and it might well be a lot cheaper than you think especially if you are prepared to do the strip down and re build yourself. It would also give you the opportunity to switch to the Raven Sport Tour if your interests have now move away from off-road / heavyweight touring.
All the best,
Stuart
-
Thanks for that. THere are a few other things I'd also have to do (sorry this is a bit OT) - switch to a saddle that lays back further- the B17 just didn't work out this time around. I'd try a Specialized BG - it worked for me on my last bike. And the stem needs to be swapped for something shorter. But also, going further OT now, I rather miss 700c too. That's indeed another story, but I think for taller people and of course road tourers, those wheels make lots of sense. I'm not faulting the Raven, just my thought process in choosing it.
John's Audax also looks a great choice- I see he solved it by buying both types of bike!
-
I think its horses for courses. I have yet to have any experience on a Raven, RST due this Saturday. If I was just road riding, audax or touring I would want drops. If there wasn't a more elegant solution than current (functionally elegant) I wouldn't go for a Rohloff. I might not even go for a Rohloff even if there was a suitable shifter.
But I am hoping the RST is perfect for my intended use and for that I want straight bars. We have taken our tandem on bridleways etc, it has drops, and to be honest it is hard work keeping the hands on the hoods, close to the brakes. I'm alot more tired when I get back. On the road though it is brilliant.
So for me it is intended usage and the best riding position for that usage.
-
I did consider getting drops for my RST as I can appreciate the benefit of multiple hand positions, but having never actually owned a drop bar bike before so I ended up sticking to what I know and got flat bars.
Now that my RST has arrived and I have had a chance to ride it a bit, it strikes me that the need to move your hand to change gear on a drop bars is not really any different to flat bars, just that you need to move it a bit further. Although the rohloff shifter is at hand on flat bars, it isn't quite as at hand as with deraillieur shifters.
On my old bike which has gripshifters, the shifters are only slightly larger in diameter than the main part of the grips so it was natural to ride with your hands on the shifters at all times. This meant there was no need to change hand position to change gear (and the same is true of MTB thumb shifters).
My RST has ergon grips which have a more defined hand position that conventional grips, which coupled with the fact that the rohloff shifter's larger diameter and triangular shape does not lend itself to being used as a grip means that I have to make a definite hand movement of an inch or so to change gear.
I'm somewhat tempted to fit a cheap set of drops and bar end shifters to my old bike just to see how I get on with them, and if I like them I might change the RST to drops.