Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Rouleur834 on June 14, 2021, 09:29:31 pm
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As we are enjoying a hot spell in the UK thoughts turn to hydration. There are so many options to choose from I am wondering who uses what? Hypertonic, isotonic, hypotonic, electrolytes only, electrolytes and energy, water. Most websites suggest water for rides of 90 minutes or less. That makes sense but when the temperature is mid 20s, or above, I feel thirsty when drinking plain water. That is possibly due to my diabetes. I am changing from more intense shorter rides to longer less intense outings. That would suggest a reduced requirement for energy from drinks, gels and bars. No need for instant sugar/carbs. That would avoid sugar spikes and suit me better.
I am probably looking at 3hr to 4hr rides. Any advice would be appreciated.
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I just use water.
For long rides in very hot weather I drink between 4 and 8 litres of water in a day.
It might be better to use electrolytes on long distance rides in hot weather, but as I don't yet have any salt-related health issues I just consume more salt with my meals, to replace the salt lost in sweat. When I forget the extra salt, I tend to get muscle cramps.
For energy, I find starchy food (bread, chips, pasta, etc.) is better than sugary stuff like cakes.
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I only need water and that's often all I have. Sometimes I like to have other stuff, High5 Zero tablets, or cold Redbush lemon tea, sometimes I'll grab a cold can of pop from a garage. I went through a phase of having flat coke mixed 50/50 with water, but it's hard to keep the bottle clean. The main thing is that you drink enough and if there's something that makes you more likely to do so, and does no harm, that's a good thing. Food and drink need to be considered together, I eat quite normally when out riding, so can drink likewise.
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I'm a recent convert to electrolyte tablets. Yesterday I was out with a couple of friends for a slow 5 hour ride in unpleasantly warm (by UK standards) conditions. I swallowed 1/2 litre of water with an electrolyte tablet before starting and had the same with lunch but no electrolyte tablet with more water at the end. That was a mistake as I ended up with a slight headache which, for me, is a sign of being low on the essential salts.
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I'm a recent convert to electrolyte tablets. Yesterday I was out with a couple of friends for a slow 5 hour ride in unpleasantly warm (by UK standards) conditions. I swallowed 1/2 litre of water with an electrolyte tablet before starting and had the same with lunch but no electrolyte tablet with more water at the end. That was a mistake as I ended up with a slight headache which, for me, is a sign of being low on the essential salts.
Do I have this right:
5 hour ride, on 1 litre of fluid?
Wouldn't have made any difference to me what I was drinking that would have been nothing like enough, I'd have been suffering from that rather than lack of salts.
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Like Martin, I drink between 4 and 8 liters of water over the course of a hot 10-17 hour day in the saddle.
I have found on-road temperatures often exceed air temperatures due to heat absorbed/reflected by the surface (any fan of televised Formula One auto racing will see this when "track temperatures" are posted and compared to ambient air temps). For temperatures of 40-50°F, I "budget" 8.5l/day for direct rehydration and limited cooking. In my desert expeditions, I typically carry 26.5l, which is about a 3-day supply at that rate of consumption. All my bikes have bidons mounted on frame and/or steerer to carry 3l-6.5l. I sometimes carry an extra 1l bottle under the cap-top straps of each front Ortlieb SportPacker pannier or in Ortlieb's add-on bottle cages. Extra beyond that goes in a couple of 10l MSR Dromedary water bladders. The need to carry water (and the weight it adds) was a big reason why I bought my Nomad and my Extrawheel trailer, which I still use on longer trips away from water sources.
I mix up a single 1l bottle with electrolyte mix (Gatorade at half strength to cut the sugar content; sugar reduces water absorption) that I consume half to fully after every 2 bottles of water alone else I develop thigh and calf cramps. In Germany, Slovakia, Czechia, Croatia, Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria, it was not always possible to find electrolyte replacements at rural stores, so I substituted non-alcoholic beer or radler ("cyclist") beer (the kind I preferred was a mix of 60% lemonade and 40% non-alcoholic or low-alcohol beer -- yay, Gösser NaturRadler Alkoholfrei) on the good advice of a Bavarian friend. It worked as an electrolyte replacement of sorts and I suffered no cramps. I hit historic heat waves on both my outbound and return crossings of Romania and Serbija with road temperatures of 43°C by 08:30 and nighttime lows of 30.5. Food was not so much an issue as hydration. While I avoided heat stroke, I did find myself in heat exhaustion when hills were added to the mix.
An awful lot depends on staying hydrated as it is hard to address a deficit. I drink on a schedule even if I don't feel thirsty and let urination frequency, quantity, and color be my guide, keeping output as close to clear as I can. It helps to take advantage of available cover from the sun and to reduce physical intensity when you can; I deliberately chose to walk some hills I could have pedaled for that reason. For me, wearing adequate sunscreen or sun-protective clothing makes a big difference in my endurance and perceived body temperature and affects my water consumption. Of course, time of day makes a big difference but it is not always possible to find shade at the hottest times.
Best,
Dan.
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Do I have this right:
5 hour ride, on 1 litre of fluid?
Wouldn't have made any difference to me what I was drinking that would have been nothing like enough, I'd have been suffering from that rather than lack of salts.
Add in what I drank before I left home to drive to the meeting point (probably another litre, the half litre (or was it one litre?) at the end of the ride and about 1/4 litre at about 3/4 of the way round. It was a leisurely ride (42 miles in a bit over 4 hours moving time) and the first 1/3rd wasn't unpleasantly hot. My omission was not having another electrolyte tablet in the after-ride drink. I did drink more than usual for the rest of the day but that could be due to the hot weather rather than residual dehydration.
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For me when I'm out on the road bike it's two 850ml Bottles of water each with a SiS Hydro tablet in. That'll see me going for a 50-60 mile 3-4 hour ride. I tend to have a recovery shake (not really needed) afterwards, which is proteins, energy and electrolytes. Longer rides / riding in hot weather then it's two 1L bottles with SiS Go Energy, and I will usually stop for additional water where possible.
Out on the tandem, it's a 1L bottle, and a 1.5L Nalgene, each. Mine with Sis Go Energy, stokers with Go Hydro. She doesn't drink enough, and often has left overs, that I may raid towards the end of the ride. Following a incident with heat exhaustion last year, I have taken the opportunity to put 500ml of Go Energy in the Nalgene bottles, and put them in the freezer at an angle. the remainder goes in before setting out, and I have cool drinks toward the end of the ride.
Not done any long tours for some time, but we are rarely too far off the beaten track, so water is usually available, mixed 50/50 with fruit juice.
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Water mostly suffices for me but I do supplement electrolytes on longer rides or in very hot weather. I use High 5 Zero tablets for convenience but a ½ tsp of sea salt added to a bidon of whatever you usually drink also works well. I usually alternate bidons of electrolyte with bidons of pure water. Salt can also be replaced through eating a normal diet and salty snacks such as crisps or salted peanuts are an obvious choice, bananas are a good source of potassium as well as supplying a useful energy boost.
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Yesterday (a bit cooler than Sunday) I did 70 miles split between 47 morning and 23 afternoon and used three electrolyte tablets (before, break and after) plus a recovery protein drink during the break (about 50 minutes). I had about 1.5 litres of liquid during the break which was more than sufficient because my bladder wanted emptying after about 1/2 hour of the 2nd ride. This morning I pedalled 23 miles and didn't bother with any electrolyte as the temperature rose from pleasant (18C) to warmish (23C) during the ride.
Individual hydration requirements will depend on temperature, body weight, bike load, effort, clothing (and hence natural cooling) and individual metabolism. Last year I went out on a 2 hour ride with my son-in-law in which I thought was a pleasant temperature and he was sweating. My average speed on a good day is 12 mph with an all-up weight (bike, rider and bagage) of around 85kg. I think I've got a fairly efficient metabolism as using a heart rate monitor nearly halves the calorie estimate of my Garmin Edge compared to the estimate without the monitor although Garmin's algorithm is questionable as http://bikecalculator.com/ isn't far away from from the Garmin number when using the HRM (my average for a ride is currently around 105 bpm which is about double my resting heart rate).
Temperature, as noted already, is a major factor but note that temperature measurement on a bike isn't easy. A computer exposed to the sunshine is being direct heated from the sun. I reckon that Garmin applied a fudge on my Edge 1030 by subtracting 3C from the measured value because, on a cloudy day, it reads about 3C low. I've also got a Garmin Tempe sensor fixed on the underside of the rack where it's shaded from direct sunshine and that appears to report temperatures 2C below the actual. Anyway, whatever the numbers, a sun-baked road (with heat radiated from the road surface) is much hotter than being in the shade even if the air temperature is similar.
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Thanks to all for the responses. A lot of interesting points such as the role of suncream and clothing. I think I had been influenced by the media machine that is associated with all things cycling. Is it just me or are websites and publications heavily skewed towards road racing and athletes? Before finding this forum I have struggled to find a source of useful, to my circumstances, information. Having read the replies I plan to switch from gels and sports bars to water, electrolytes (where needed) and real food. No doubt this will also help my diabetes and avoid the highs and lows of my blood glucose. Thanks again. Ray
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I see a role for the energy gels/ powders /bars for those occasions when I ride has been more demanding than usual. Relying on food alone can get the stomach accustomed to expecting more than is needed most of the time (with consequent putting on unwanted weight) but this risk can be reduced using snacks between meals.
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During my '18 (2018, I'm not that old..) tour in Ethiopia near the equator, with thermometer busting temperatures, I found Gastrolyte, HYDRAlyte, Pedialyte and Repalyte in village pharmacies.
Used for infant fluid loss, they soon had me back on the road.
Just a thought.
Best
Matt
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...I think I had been influenced by the media machine that is associated with all things cycling. Is it just me or are websites and publications heavily skewed towards road racing and athletes? ...
...Having read the replies I plan to switch from gels and sports bars to water, electrolytes (where needed) and real food. No doubt this will also help my diabetes and avoid the highs and lows of my blood glucose. Thanks again. Ray
Any website that talks about racing or competitive riding for time will have an orientation towards carb replenishment while riding.
If I have one gel packet, the next day my blood sugar is still high. I have not had a gel packet in years. I do not use insulin, only have an insulin resistance problem.
I do not add anything to my water, except sometimes on a bike tour I might add a mild zero calorie flavoring.
On longer rides I often carry a small amount of a salty snack food, that is my electrolytes, but if you prefer some science based tablet, go for it. Over time I have seemed to figure out if I am low on electrolytes instead of low on calories, thus I seem to know when I need some salt.
I think the key factor to think about for energy replacement is your energy output. Long endurance types of rides are a lower wattage type of riding, you do not need much energy replenishment on such rides as your body fat reserves can provide a lot of the energy you need. Short intense rides for say up to an hour to hour and a half, no replenishment needed during the ride either as your body stores enough readily available fast acting energy stores. A longer ride that is more intensive, I will have some granola bars or energy bars along for such rides.
You might find this article useful, I think the graph of energy types for different intensities most interesting, at low intensity you are using almost all fats but high intensity you are using mostly carbs. Thus, those low intensity rides are often supplied by normal foods.
https://www.roadbikerider.com/energy-sources-exercise-intensities/
I almost never have more that 20 grams of carbs at one time while on a ride, larger energy bars only get half eaten at a time. That said, sometimes I stop at a restaurant and have a big meal while on a bike tour, but I know that when I do that I will ride slower for a couple hours after that while digesting some of that.
Most physical trainers will tell you that after exertion, you should have some protein for muscle recovery. When bike touring I usually try to have a protein bar (usually 20 gram protein) at the end of the day, soon after the ride. But when exercising near home, am more likely to have some other source of protein and probably only half as much.
But, if an opportunity arises for something like in the photo, I will take advantage of it.
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Hi Mickeg
Thank you for your helpful post. Much appreciated.
Very interesting article about energy sources. I need to look at my HR Zones and decide what my goals are. Having recently purchased a Thorn, I am leaning more towards slower and longer for my cycling. That should help to reduce my requirement for carbs and also help to reduce the waistband a tad. My nurse will be pleased! Never given much thought to post ride protein, I will need to look at that.
You make very good points about ride duration and where the ride ends. Those things need to inform nutrition and hydration needs.
The Roadbikerider site has a lot of useful stuff to browse. The Cycling Past 60 articles will be a focus along with energy sources.
Learning something new every day!
Thanks again
Ray
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V interesting reading
So, to simply this a bit for me ....
Is there a guide to roughly how much water I should drink say for every hour of riding? Or every 10 miles ?
I’m from U.K.
And by how much would this need to increase if the temperature went from say 10 degree C to 20 degrees C ?
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There's no simple answer to this as much depend on how fast you are pushing yourself, your personal metabolism and how much natural insulation you have (ie body fat). For me, at my normal speed (averaging 12 mph and only a rack bag) a temperature up to about 17C means progressively removing layers of clothing which I've put on to avoid being too cold overall but there's probably a bit of sweating going up the worst hills. Above 17C I'm down to a short sleeved top and reckon that 20C is a pleasant cycling temperature. I've been round a 47 mile circuit several times with the temperature in the 15 to 20C range and not drunk anything during the ride (but did stop to remove a layer of clothing). However, on getting home I've drunk about 1 litre of water with an electrolyte tablet to make sure there are no adverse after-effects.
Once the forecast temperature is above 20C and rising then I need to consider hydration. A big drink with an electrolyte tablet before I start is the first precaution which should defer the need for the next drink for at least a couple of hours. Individual experience will vary. I've got a friend who will be sweating buckets when I'm thinking that the temperature is a little chilly.
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So, to simply this a bit for me ....
Is there a guide to roughly how much water I should drink say for every hour of riding? Or every 10 miles ?
As John says we are all different, though I'd have said a bit different, we all follow the same rules of biology.
Sports nutritionists tend to recommend 500ml an hour during reasonable exertion, that's a decent starting point, you may find you prefer 300 or 700, but those are probably the extremes. Remember this is in addition to the 2 litres a day we're recommended to drink anyway. Also worth looking at what counts, tea, coffee, skimmed milk... and what doesn't.
It mainly trial and error, there's plenty of information you body is telling you, as long as you listen. If you find yourself feeling really thirsty, you've already left it too late, there's plenty of charts for the urine colour a well hydrated body will produce and if you don't find yourself needing to let some out every couple of hours, you're probably not drinking enough.
In hotter weather, you will need a bit more, but it isn't a huge amount, again trial and error, but for me it's around an extra 10%. Sweat isn't always a good guide, when riding it can evaporate so quickly you might not notice. it's easier to drink enough when it's warm, the inclination is there. What's harder is to get in the habit of drinking enough when it's cooler, and habit is what you're ideally looking for. Choosing drinks you'll want can be helpful here, a bit of flavour, tea in a flask...
If you don't drink enough, it can spoil your day, if you drink a bit too much the worst that happens is you need to stop more often to let some out. If you were at the elite level of athleticism, getting it perfect would be important, getting it about right is good enough for the rest of us.
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PH
funnily enough, when I used to commute to work which took me just over 1 hour , I took a 500ml size bottle of water with me , not really thinking about needing to drink water or drink a certain amount
But that 500ml seemed to do the trick and never felt rough or dehydrated.
So before I wrote this post I kind of had a rough thought that 500ml per hour might be a good rough starting point which I could add or subtract from as needed.
I guess it’s all a bit of trial and error. No shortcut to experience eh?
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JohnR
Do you wear shorts or trousers ?
I just bought a new pair of craghopper trousers which are lightweight and baggy. I guess they would be the kind hill walkers/climbers would wear with a few pockets .
I tried on a variety of different ones and settled on a pair . Not sure if I will like them better than my previous gore goretex cycling trousers , but fancied trying something different for cycling .
I noticed that there comes a change in temp where I can no longer tolerate the heat while wearing trousers/jeans and have to switch to shorts or Il end up feeling rough and overheated. So I’m hearing that in mind for cycling.
I like the idea of loading up on water before even going out on a ride. I need to back into that habit of taking in more water in the morning.
I do diet experiments from time to time and I landed on something that seemed to work quite good for me which if I remember was eating 4 good meals a day . Before the meals I would drink my water. Which is supposed to aid digestion if you time it right.
I found it easier to think about the water as being part of the meal, than having to think about drinking water all day intermittently which is tough to do
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Anyone ever get cycling related heat exhaustion or heat stroke ? Or bad dehydration?
A couple of my daughters were feeling rough after the sun , which I naggingly warned one of them about before hand. They felt better quite quickly after I got a fan on them and gave them cloths dipped in cold water to wipe over their face and arms etc.
My friend who is a joiner in Ayrshire told me he was at work yesterday and started feeling dizzy after being out in sun . Had to abandon tools. Went home and said every time he stood up he vommited (sorry for the details !)
It just shows how easy it is to get caught out by unexpected weather or just not being used to the heat of not being prepared , or not knowing how hydrated you actually are etc.
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I had it on one of my personal mega ride in a day from Inverness to my home in Inverurie.
120+ miles.
Over here in Scotlandshire the hot sun is quite rare, so was caught out.
30 mins in the shade had me back on the road but it taught me a lesson.
Matt ( who likes to learn 5 new things a day ).
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JohnR
Do you wear shorts or trousers ?
That depends on the temperature. My threshold for not feeling cold in shorts is 12C. The warm weather shorts are Endura Hummvee and for hotter weather it's a pair of these Dare2b Renew shorts https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dare-2b-Repellent-Drying-Pocket/dp/B07L1MN33T which are lighter. Both are worn without any padded liner although the Hummvee shorts are supplied with one. However, a versatile alternative is a pair of the Hummvee zip-off trousers which covers both the short and long trouser options (a pair of these plus the Renew shorts and some waterproof trousers are packed as my LEJOG legwear). And if it's warm enough for shorts than it's sandals on the feet with thick / thin / no socks depending on the temperature. After trying several pairs I've decided on these https://www.clarksoutlet.co.uk/p/35893030 which have a fairly thick sole with some tread and grip my pedals nicely.
Anyone ever get cycling related heat exhaustion or heat stroke ? Or bad dehydration?
I've worked (but not cycled) in hot countries and a headache is my first sign of dehydration. Life is easier these days with rehydration salts (originally developed as part of the treatment for Cholera) and tablets being easily available as it's the salt deficit rather than the water deficit which creates the big problems. The Mercury has three mounts for bottle cages so I'll be carrying three 0.7 litre bottles on the LEJOG. However, if temperatures are moderate then one will probably be empty. As already noted, I try to emulate a camel and have a good drink before setting out so arguably I'm still carrying the water but not in a bottle. If the temperature is heading above 20C then I'll put an electrolyte tablet in the pre-ride drink.
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The appliance of science!
I came across the website www.mysportscience.com sometime ago. It's owned by Asker Jeukendrup and covers a lot of interesting subject areas in relation to sports nutrition and hydration amongst other things.
Just found this on the site, https://www.mysportscience.com/post/2017/07/14/how-much-do-you-sweat. Might remove some of the trial and error whilst giving something more tailored to the individual.
Time to get the scales out and experiment.
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Remember that most bike touring is recreation and a lot of the sports science is based on people operating at near their physical limit. The only time I really get my heart working is going up a serious hill. The rest of the time I'm cruising.
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Remember that most bike touring is recreation and a lot of the sports science is based on people operating at near their physical limit. The only time I really get my heart working is going up a serious hill. The rest of the time I'm cruising.
Agree, up to a point. However, if I take measurements at my usual intensity, giving due consideration to temperature and other factors, those measurements will be tailored to me. Equally, if I repeat the exercise at a different intensity, the results will still be tailored to me just at a different level. To me, that makes sense as I will have a basic idea of my need for hydration at various levels of intensity. Works for me!
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Anyone ever get cycling related heat exhaustion or heat stroke ? Or bad dehydration?
Yes - once in southern India. On a very hot day like the one in question my usual riding pattern would have had me in an air-conditioned hotel room before noon. However, on this particular day I was caught out in the open on a shadeless road for hours in the heat of the day. Water wasn't a problem as I carried about 4 litres. At some point in the afternoon I started feeling pretty shaky and almost toppled over from dizziness the moment I stopped for a snack. Fortunately I spied a large banyan tree and Hindu shrine just up the road and once there flaked out on a convienient bench. I was utterly out of it for a good few hours, waking occasionally to chug down a gulp of hot water (yuck!) from my bottles or exchange greetings with whoever else was sharing the shade on an adjacent bench. Some time in the afternoon a thunderstorm rolled through and the sudden drop in temps and refreshingly cool rain drops seemed to recharge my batteries entirely. I still had an hour or more to ride but was kind of surprised that once underway felt no ill-effects whatsoever from the earlier heat stress.
Another time in the far west of New South Wales (Australia), nearing Broken Hill I ran low on water thanks to pig headed stubbornness. I had calculated that I had enough water in a pinch (allowing for a night camping) but decided I'd pay for some extra anyway at the only roadhouse I'd encounter on this particular road. All the river beds I'd passed had been dry or blue-green algae affected otherwise I'd simply have filtered some extra. The road house had only tiny 500ml bottles and wanted about $5 each, making water the single most expensive drink they sold by far. Hoping for better value I asked if they had larger bottles and was rudely told 'take it or leave it'. I left it... and finding their attitude so grim declined on buying the cheaper sugary colas on offer either.
The next morning by the time I'd had porridge I had about 500ml of water left and 50ish km to Broken Hill. As I started riding I was doing the sums in my head and started thinking 'no worries, it's coolish and the riding is easy - a sip every 3km should do it'. This of course was deadly! I began obsessively counting the kms, my mouth becoming dryer and dryer with every minute and the more I thought about it the worse it became. Each sip offered about 500 metres of relief until the obsession kicked in again. Finally, with about 20km to go I came to my senses, realised the chances of death by dehydration in the next hour were essentially zero, chugged all the remaining water, then thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the ride.
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Remember that most bike touring is recreation and a lot of the sports science is based on people operating at near their physical limit. The only time I really get my heart working is going up a serious hill. The rest of the time I'm cruising.
Yes it's all relative, though most of my cycling is at a higher intensity than most of the other things I do. Not flat out, except when absolutely necessary, but still enough to increase the need for hydration.
I've only had a glance at Rouleur's link, I've already learnt what works for me, I have no need to refine it further. Even from that glance it seems to emphasise how different we are, yet even during intense effort the vast majority of people sweat at a rate within a fairly narrow band (Google says 0.8 - 1.2 litres an hour) so it's not like some people sweat three or four times as much as others. Half that for moderate exertion and we're back to the 0.5 an hour, which as I said is probably a good starting point.
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Sports nutritionists tend to recommend 500ml an hour during reasonable exertion
That seems about right for me in reasonable temperatures.
47 km ride this morning. I drunk about 750 ml around breakfast time, about 500 ml halfway through the ride and about 500 ml on arrival.
Temp about 17°C at start, about 23°C finish.
In winter I drink less. And if it gets hot I drink a lot more.
Above 35°C I try not to cycle (or go outside for any reason), but when doing survey work (by bicycle) during the 2003 heatwave I did have a few days when temperatures went above 40°C. I consumed very large quantities of water, some extra salt, and I spent quite a lot of time resting in shade to recover between periods out in the open. I also started as early as possible, had a long "siesta" break around midday, and compensated by working in the evening.