Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: No on July 22, 2013, 12:58:41 am
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First off, I hate QR's. I've always found it strange that all that weight is supported by those 4 little nubs on a bike. I much prefer the concept of through axles. And now that Schmidt makes a through axle front hub, I've decided that's what I want on my next bike. I especially like that I don't have to worry as much about the disk brake making my QR loose as there is no QR. If Rohloff made a through axle hub I'd certainly use it, but I'll probably just end up with the bolt on, if this ever happens, with a pitlock lock on it.
The next thing is rim brakes. I want disk brakes because I don't want my rims wearing and I don't want to worry about blown tubes and I don't want to have poor stopping power in the rain and mud.
So this brings me to the problem. Cold weather. Will disk brakes work and not be damaged when it's below 0 degrees Fahrenheit? Should I go with mineral oil or DOT fluid? And because there are no steel forks that Thorn makes for 15mm axles and disk brakes I would likely end up with a suspension fork, which I kind of hate thanks to the promise of increased maintenance, but my hands would certainly like it, but will a suspension fork's seals handle cold temps? And should I go air or spring with one?
This would be for a Thorn Nomad to be used for exploration and as a utility bike.
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I can't help you with the specifics of your puzzle. But it just gets me thinking about chains of logic and where they can drive a person. A particular type of axle drives one to suspension forks!
An STI brifter on my Trek 520 failed.... I ended up with a Thorn Nomad! I know about these chains of logic!
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Yo, No.
General information. You might want to ask which versions Thorn offers, and which fit the Thorn frames. Rohloff makes a fixed-axle version of their hub gearbox; look for the TS models. In addition, you can use the CC model and replace the quick release with a nutted version of the shaft, including security nuts. I have the CC model with a shaft that one side has just a gripless pyramid button and the other side an Allen nut which could be replaced with a security nut. It looks very tidy. You can't mix and match the models, though, as they are built from the axle outwards.
A rim is just a large disc -- thus bicycle rim brakes are also disc brakes. If you need hydraulics, use the Magura HS hydraulic rim brakes. I have the Magura hydraulic rim brakes and love them. On an expedition bike you will in any event choose thicker-wall rims, so the wear rate will be much lower than you fear. The problem with disc brakes is that they wear out pads at a substantial rate, so there is considerable maintenance to keep the pads fresh. There's a reason most world tourers don't use disk brakes. The Thorn fork is just about the most beautiful part of the entire bike; be a shame to give it up for the wrong reason.
If you want or need suspension, have you considered that 50 or 55mm low pressure tyres (balloons) give you 95% of the advantages of mechanical suspension without the cost and the maintenance? Use the search box and search for balloons, Big Apple, Schwalbe. There's quite a bit on this board about suspension by informed tyre choice.
Andre Jute
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Oh No!
I'm surprised you are even looking at Thorns on this basis. They major on proven, rugged simplicity. Unfortunately it is in almost no one elses interest to market things in this niche...and I suppose that's why there is some philosophical convergence amongst forum members. Different chains of logic if you like. Complexity is the enemy of utility.
The main technical purpose of through axles is to provide additional rigidity, via increased diameter, at the working end of suspension assemblies. Thorn steel forks are already rigid enough at the bottom so they would be overkill.
If you had no disc brake there would be no worry about axle security, or leaks, or short pad life, or partial seizure, or bent rotors or heightened theft appeal. Hydraulic fluid type would be largely dictated by the seal compatibility of the system you choose to use.
Rim wear issues can be addressed with carbide rims (Rigida Grizzly or Andra with CSS finish). Very low maintenance and adjustment requirements with V brakes. Blown tubes? use the brakes alternately on long descents to allow rim cooling. You'd have to do this with discs as well to avoid heat induced fade, unless you fitted really large vented rotors...
And worry ye not about the "little nubs". The axle supports the weight and the nubs just provide the clamping force and are as big as they need to be.
Air forks: seals leak: fork collapses to minimum travel. Not a get you home thing like a steel spring fork that may just leak all over the brake.
Fit fat tyres instead like Andre suggests, and run about 30psi or lower off road.
Go simple, have fun more of the time and leave the extremes to the marketing people :-)
Ian
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Oh No!
I'm surprised you are even looking at Thorns on this basis. They major on proven, rugged simplicity. Unfortunately it is in almost no one elses interest to market things in this niche...and I suppose that's why there is some philosophical convergence amongst forum members. Different chains of logic if you like. Complexity is the enemy of utility.
The main technical purpose of through axles is to provide additional rigidity, via increased diameter, at the working end of suspension assemblies. Thorn steel forks are already rigid enough at the bottom so they would be overkill.
If you had no disc brake there would be no worry about axle security, or leaks, or short pad life, or partial seizure, or bent rotors or heightened theft appeal. Hydraulic fluid type would be largely dictated by the seal compatibility of the system you choose to use.
Rim wear issues can be addressed with carbide rims (Rigida Grizzly or Andra with CSS finish). Very low maintenance and adjustment requirements with V brakes. Blown tubes? use the brakes alternately on long descents to allow rim cooling. You'd have to do this with discs as well to avoid heat induced fade, unless you fitted really large vented rotors...
And worry ye not about the "little nubs". The axle supports the weight and the nubs just provide the clamping force and are as big as they need to be.
Air forks: seals leak: fork collapses to minimum travel. Not a get you home thing like a steel spring fork that may just leak all over the brake.
Fit fat tyres instead like Andre suggests, and run about 30psi or lower off road.
Go simple, have fun more of the time and leave the extremes to the marketing people :-)
Ian
Have they solved the problem with carbide rims not working well in wet weather? Are there pads that negate that effect?
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No,
I have a Thorn Rohloff tourer with CSS rims and XTR V brakes.
I have moved from the blue Swiss Stop to black Kool Stop, both say they are designed for CSS.
My experience was that I found the blue ones incredibly good in the dry and very poor in the very wet.
I find the black ones give a more even performance and yes I can now stop in the very wet, they are lasting well.
Julian.
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Hi No
All component choices involve a compromise of some sort and there is no perfect brake out there. However css rims and blue pads are the best solution I've found so far.....if black Kool stops work even better I'll be truly overjoyed.
I find they stop as well as anything else in the dry and need a much harder squeeze in the wet to clear the water and then they have pretty much normal power and modulation. So I wouldn't ride wet criteriums or a really manic commute on them, but in any other use it is a characteristic I can adapt to. (BTW where I ride its is VERY hilly, it rains a lot and I do the bulk of my mileage in the dark).
Huge plus points on the utility side though:
Unbelievably long adjustment intervals due to really low pad wear rate. (Way better than discs or regular rim brakes in my experience).
Work adequately or better in at least 95% of my riding (on and off road).
Much cleaner than regular rim brakes in the wet. NO black slop ;D
Rugged lightweight low tech simplicity,reliability and cheap components.
Work equally well with flat or drop bars.
No fancy tools and no mess servicing.
Nothing to leak or deteriorate over time.
I think wet performance would be improve a pad redesign so that the leading edge acted as a scraper instead of an aquaplane. I live in hope. edit: Just looked at the kool stops and that's exactly what they've done.
I hope this is useful
Ian
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I hope this is useful
At the very least it is fascinating. "No black slop"!
Is there anyone here who has actually worn out a touring rim -- as distinct from a lightweight, thin wall racing rim -- by wearing through the brake surface? I take No's point. If that will happen every year or two, I might put up with the expense and the time required by disc brakes, and the constant attention you have to apply every time you apply them. I like riding my hills very fast and braking hard but with almost automatic modulation, without that on/off feeling of discs. But if it is only every third or fourth or nth year, nah, I'd rather have my faithful old Magura HS11 -- the older, less powerful style, eminently suited to not face-planting an absentminded intellectual when he slams them on; they're truly fit and forget brakes. Of course, the opinions of off-roaders will differ.
Andre Jute
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About those Magura's, how well do they work in the cold? And how reliable are they? What kind of clearance do they have? And do they really provide more stopping power even with css rims?
And what sort of pads should be used with them? Magura brand? I see they have some for ceramic rims, I guess that applies to carbide rims too?
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Andre
would your Maguras be the spiritual equivalent of my Schmidt hub?
I love Deore!
Ian
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About those Magura's, how well do they work in the cold? And how reliable are they? What kind of clearance do they have? And do they really provide more stopping power even with css rims?
And what sort of pads should be used with them? Magura brand? I see they have some for ceramic rims, I guess that applies to carbide rims too?
The Magure rim brakes are hydraulic; they work as well as disc brakc hydraulics in the cold. I've only ridden in really low temperatures a few times, in sub-zero probably only a handful of times, and never noticed any degradation in performance. Nor have I heard of any problems.
Magure hydraulic rim brakes are the most reliable brakes there are. They come as a closed, fully assembled, no bleed system and require no service, ever. They are truly fit and forget. Mine have done about 6500km on the same set of blocks, hardly worn. I wasted the money I spent laying in three sets of spare blocks, besides the spare set the builders of my bike included in the welcome pack, when I bought the bike five years ago. (I ride out in the country mostly. I don't brake all the time, but when I do brake at junctions, I usually brake hard.) I've adjusted the blocks once, when I fitted a rim of a different width; I've never adjusted them for wear; they're essentially self-adjusting.
You run Magura brake blocks at the same 2mm or so spacing as any other rim block.
It may be possible that Maguras could provide more grip on CSS rims than mechanical systems. but I think, just on general principles, that it would be marginal. It's the CSS rims that are the problem, not the gripping power in any kind of good bicycle brake available today. The point of the Maguras is that they work under all conditions, and they work the same every time, very consistently, and they are very progressive, which you can't say for disc brakes.
There are several kinds of colour coded Magura blocks available, and aftermarket blocks as well, that some swear by for greater stopping power at the cost of longevity. A few years ago I followed a thread on a technical conference and the experience there was that the common black block gave the most stopping power with the CSS rims though it wore faster than the grey or the green or whatever the special CSS block was. It was still a longlived block though, by any standards.
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If you really want a brake that works under all conditions and keeps working without any clearance worries in icy and snowy conditions, you should consider Shimano's roller brake at the front; there is unfortunately not a version for the Rohloff. You'd have the same problem, that Thorn won't put disc tabs on a steel fork, and the roller brake has a torque arm that bolts to disc tabs. But on the other hand, it is a fully enclosed brake, it is extremely powerful, its service consists of squeezing in special grease from a clean-handling tube at long intervals through a small port. I've had the limp IM-40 series, long obsolete, and on a bike for the Euro-elite http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html I had the very powerful IM75 series roller brakes (check out those cooling fins -- it needs them!), which killed the Magura Louise discs I had on another similar bike at the same time -- and the Magura Louise were then as now said by their fans, of whom I was one too, to be the best disc brakes (a lot of) money could buy. My not so humble opinion: The best modern roller brakes are an overlooked sporting proposition, unfairly relegated to city bike use.
On the downside, the IM75, and possibly all powerful roller brakes, are damned sudden if you ride them on the edge; if you don't want a face-plant, you better pay attention to how you handle that lever; they're like discs set up with miniscule tolerances and the booster turned up. I found the Magura rim hydraulics, of which my bike maker especially chose the weakest one (largest chamber, lowest pressure) to suit my careless riding style, a relief after the demands of the IM75 rollers.
Andre Jute
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Andre
would your Maguras be the spiritual equivalent of my Schmidt hub?
I love Deore!
Ian
And a security blanket besides!
It occurs to me that I may have left people with the idea the Magura rim hydraulics are limp: they're not. I had a demonstration of their power less than hour ago. I went out before dawn to beat the forecast rain and heat, found I was going better than in a long time, and extended the ride onto roads I don't normally ride because they're dangerous for cyclists. Looking at some interesting clouds, wondering if I had time to stop and paint them and still beat the rain home, I missed a Black Spot sign and suddenly came on this T-junction onto a lethal road with the early morning trucks and cars thundering along it, and they too having zero visibilty on me and almost zero reaction time. I slammed on the anchors so hard I actually flatspotted the rear tire just before it lifted, and pulled up to a right sudden stop. On any other brake that could have been a face-plant, but the Magura take-up, even in an emergency, was still smooth enough to save me the embarrassment, the pain, and the danger, because just then two co-op trucks screeched to a halt behind me, the drivers hardly having time to see me because of the topology. It's a pity that the current HS11 shares the architecture of the HS33 (small chamber in both, same pressure, only difference is in lever construction, the rest is cosmetic) because there is quite a bit to be said for the more accommodating version I have.
Unless you have CSS rims, of course, then you'd better have the modern version, and the stiffer lever of the HS33 might give you that bit extra in an emergency.
Me too: I'm a big fan of Shimano in general and Deore in particular. There are many components that are at such a stage of development, they're just about generics. In those cases, and in many others, anyone who pays more than the Deore part costs is a wastrel. But try to explain that to any cyclist who isn't a Scot.
Andre Jute
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Andre,
Yes, I did once wear out a good quality touring rim on an XT equipped Dawes.
I used to commute to/from work in Edinburgh, 100 miles a week, riding in the potholes and debris left by cars and buses etc.
The front rim eventually wore through by the abrasive effect of the braking especially with the grit picked up in the rain.
Luckily I noticed it as it started to peel away and managed to avoid a face plant.
I have been using CSS rims for 3 years now and there is no visible wear.
Julian.
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I was just being cheeky Andre. Prodding the intellectual bear :)
A lot of people I know around here have had worn thin rims fail.The tyre blows off taking a good part of the braking surface with it. Like this http://www.bikenorth.org.au/archives/chainmail/201011/11.php
Lots of rain and sandstone geology!
Ian
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Julian, Ian: Good heavens above! You'll have to excuse me. I'm off with my calipers to measure my rim walls. -- Andre
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Yo, No:
More on the Magura rim brakes that will be of particular interest to you. The HS33 and HS11 differ only in the material of the handles, in that the 33 comes with a booster plate which is an extra-cost option on the 11 (1), and in the ease of adjustment; the rest is cosmetic, the 11 having optional pretty-coloured covers. The 33 have stiffer alloy handles, the 11 have composite handles.
But the adjustment is interesting.
The HS11 is adjusted at the handlebar by a hex wrench/spanner; as I said, in 6500km I adjusted mine only when I changed rim widths.
The HS33 is clearly a competition model, the clearance adjusted as you ride without taking your hand from the handlebar grip by turning a thumbwheel. You can thus on the HS 33 conveniently set up ultra-close instant-response tolerances for riding on tarmac or dry off road, and when you get to the mud or snow give the pads and the rim some breathing space without even slowing. And, of course, you can do this differently for the front and the rear wheel to give you slightly differential braking.
For instance, I have my Magura's set up wide (a fraction over 2mm) because I'm not keen on an overly sharp response, but with just under half a millimetre of difference back to front to give me just that slight delay that gives me a better chance not to lose it when I have to brake suddenly on the loose gravel on many of the small country lanes I ride (or on slurry, or on wet grass in the centre of the very smallest lanes), say when around a corner I suddenly come upon a huge tractor filling the lane from hedgerow to hedgerow.
(1) For ultra-civilized braking, very progressive, take the booster off. In an emergency you will also find the manual grip to replace its power, and in everyday use in traffic only the most aggressive riders will need it. I don't use the booster. Note though, that those who go really wide on their tyres, all the way up to the 60mm I use, will need a custom-cut booster because the Magura item won't fit on a fork wide enough to handle 60mm tyres. It's these small details that can trip you up and be extraordinarily expensive when you start dreaming of out-of-the-ordinary bikes.
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I'm guessing thorn would take care of that if I bought the bike with them? How do you get the custom cut booster? and is the booster that super-structural looking thing?
So, up to a vote now.
For all weather from -20 F (maybe even lower! But probably not often below 10 F) to 120 F and ultimate reliability which would you choose ?
Paul components moto BMX (I don't like the springs on Shimano brakes. They always are a pain and never stay adjusted)
Or
Magura HS33?
And as for the Magura, if you never have to bleed them or anything, how do you attach the hose to the bike?
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I'm guessing thorn would take care of that if I bought the bike with them? How do you get the custom cut booster? and is the booster that super-structural looking thing?
So, up to a vote now.
For all weather from -20 F (maybe even lower! But probably not often below 10 F) to 120 F and ultimate reliability which would you choose ?
Paul components moto BMX (I don't like the springs on Shimano brakes. They always are a pain and never stay adjusted)
Or
Magura HS33?
And as for the Magura, if you never have to bleed them or anything, how do you attach the hose to the bike?
I have experience of Alaskan conditions (I wrote a book about it) and I wouldn't cycle in them.
The booster is the upside-down U with cutouts. Go to http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/magura-hs33-hydraulic-rim-brakes-black-4-finger-blade-prod28636/ and scroll down a bit and the illustrations will show you the difference between the mounting plate and the booster.
The Magura rim brakes come fully assembled from the pads to the grip, including the tube and the hydraulic oil; it is a sealed system from the factory. You have to order the right length of brake assembly, one for the front brake, one for the back. I imagine that on other bikes they fit where the normal rim brake cable would run; on my Utopia all cables, tubes etc run in custom-turned clips clips that bolt onto socketed threads on the downtube.
I should think the standard booster will fit Thorn bikes at the biggest tyre size permitted, so the question of a custom booster doesn't arise.
I have no information or opinion about Paul's brakes. But, in general, I don't see how any boutique product (not just Paul's -- any at all) could be superior to the Magura rim hydraulics.
Andre Jute
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Why is it that these brakes never require bleeding or anything, but regular hydraulic discs do?
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Have you considered going for a V-brake at the front and a disk at the rear. That is the way my Nomad is set up, primarily due to rim wear issues with other bikes. The rear disk ensures that you will always have one brake that is working, and at least in my experience on ice and snow it is the rear brake I want to need to be working as it is too easy to loose control of the front. When I bought mine I did quite a bit of research into the Hope (dot5.1) and the Shimano (mineral) disk brake, and there where some reports as to the Shimano sticking in the cold. Which is why I went with the Hope. My wife has a Utopia Velo Roadset (step through) with Magura disk brakes (mineral) and that had no problems in the cold (-22C is the coldest we have had since getting the bikes), so if the Shimano problems are real then they are nothing to do with mineral versus dot5.1. As for bleeding the brakes, they shouldn't need it, if everything is tightened up correctly at the factory and your not using some silly ultralight weight spec. I have a suspension fork as well but haven't used it much yet so I can't comment on that (I would guess that NZPete might have some input as to the suspension fork seals as it does get cold in NZ).
I haven't seen any signs of wear on my front rim yet (Andra CSS), but then I use the rear for control and the front only for stopping. If it is wet then there is a minimal delay before I get full power on the front. The delay is very short and helps stop the front from skidding immediately, so I've gotten used to braking harder in the wet if I need to stop fast. In my case the tires (Winter vs Supreme vs Mondail) make a bigger difference as to how fast I stop than water/mud on my rims
If you go with a thorn then I would go for a Nomad with a rear disk and a front V-brake (it what I did). Try it and see, if you don't like the V-brake you can always add a suspension fork and disk later.
/Andy
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If you go with a thorn then I would go for a Nomad with a rear disk and a front V-brake (it what I did).
...Or go with a disc-compatible Rohloff, at least, so all bases are covered (the disc-mounting tab is all ready and waiting on the Nomad frame, "just in case").
That's the route I went, figuring as much as I prefer v-brakes all-'round with drop handlebars at present and in the foreseeable future, that might not always be the case. Always good to have options that help future-proof the bike or add versatility, especially for minimal additional up-front cost.
Best,
Dan.
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Why is it that these brakes never require bleeding or anything, but regular hydraulic discs do?
I have just finished installing HS33 on Atilla the Nomad (I know, I owe you guys some photos!). Magura says their brakes never need bleeding (once installed correctly) because the Royal Blood brake fluid used is not hygroscopic (water-attracting). This makes sense.
AFAIK, the HS33s get delivered in one size, with identical hose lengths (1200mm, from memory). Front and rear are identical, as are left and right calipers. You actually cut the stiff nylon hose with the fluid inside (it stays remarkably intact, as long as you don't let the ends whip around), and thread it through the bosses underneath the top tube (rear brake), then simply re-attach it to the master cylinder with an included slip nut and olive. Tighten sufficiently, and there are no leaks!
It's important to get the lengths right (measure twice, cut once), or you'll either have to replace the entire hose (if you cut too short), or cut the olive off to shorten if it's too long. I did the latter with the rear brake, the only hassle being that the olives aren't reusable, and you only get one per brake. I had to buy a Magura service kit in order to get spare olives (~$25.00).
Other than that hiccup, the brakes are superb. I am using the standard black pads that came in the kit on my CSS rims, and will monitor wear closely. I will also test their wet-weather ability this weekend (with a garden hose - once again, we will have glorious weather here in Godzone!). I ordered a set of Magura Green Frogs (for ceramic/CSS) as spares.
One other slight bother - it's hard to align the front brakes so that the pads parallel the chord of the rim. I tilted them back to get close, but you're limited by the booster (not an issue if you're not using one). They seem to work fine.
Pikkies this weekend, I promise!
Sam
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I have just finished installing HS33 on Atilla the Nomad (I know, I owe you guys some photos!). Magura says their brakes never need bleeding (once installed correctly) because the Royal Blood brake fluid used is not hygroscopic (water-attracting). This makes sense.
There you go, No, Slammin' Sam has answered your question.
Can't say I've ever had trouble with the cheaper Shimano disc on my stadsportief Gazelle, except that it ate pads at an alarming rate. I don't think I ever made a thousand klicks on a set of pads.
AFAIK, the HS33s get delivered in one size, with identical hose lengths (1200mm, from memory). Front and rear are identical, as are left and right calipers. You actually cut the stiff nylon hose with the fluid inside (it stays remarkably intact, as long as you don't let the ends whip around), and thread it through the bosses underneath the top tube (rear brake), then simply re-attach it to the master cylinder with an included slip nut and olive. Tighten sufficiently, and there are no leaks!
It may be that the official aftermarket kit has only one size, but the last time I looked, all the discounters were selling different tube lengths, which they bought up as surplus stock from bike manufacturers, who presumably get their kits made to size at Magura.
It's important to get the lengths right (measure twice, cut once), or you'll either have to replace the entire hose (if you cut too short), or cut the olive off to shorten if it's too long. I did the latter with the rear brake, the only hassle being that the olives aren't reusable, and you only get one per brake. I had to buy a Magura service kit in order to get spare olives (~$25.00).
I have the service kit too, because I make a habit of buying one with the bike or component if available; it usually works out cheaper than paying carriage a second time. But if I knew then how reliable the Magura's would prove to be, I wouldn't have spent the money.
BTW, you can buy hose separately, for about ten euro. I bought that one too, and might use it as I'd like to raise my handlebars further still and the limit has now been reached on my hydraulic tubes. Though if I have to pay 25 smackers plus carriage for each olive...
Andre Jute
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Normally bleeding the brakes is to get rid of air in the system and not water. However, if air is getting in, then water is also getting in and that is a problem. In the case of mineral oil the problem is that you can have more corrosion and some very interesting viscosity effects at low temperatures. With dot 5.1 oil the problem is that the boiling point falls as you add water which means that your repetitive braking performance drops (repeated use, using as a coaster brake). The only reason that we have an issue is the effect of weight weenies on design. The lower weight they desire makes it harder to produce a good seal at all temperatures and means that when things get hot, water and air can get in and it is also harder to get rid of the heat. A thicker rotor helps as does a larger calliper, which is why thorn doesn't use the race version of the components.
The difference between dot 5.1 and mineral oil when you have good components is none existent. Just make sure that the seals are OK and you'll be fine. Repeated bleeding and addition of small amounts of oils (from the same bottle) – will cause problems.
When I did my Rohloff oil change I flushed my brakes and measured the water content of the oil in the lab. There was no significant difference between the oil I was putting in and the oil I took out (all oil contains water, even mineral oil). So I would expect the Hope brakes to not need a change for several years to come. It will be interesting to see what effect seal wear will have over time, but as I alluded to in my last post I use the rear brake a lot. By the way car manufacturers recommend changing brake fluid every 2 to 5 years (due to water build up), and in most cars the brake fluid reservoir is a lot more poorly sealed than on a bike. So you should be able to get at least 2 years before changing the oil (my test suggests a lot longer interval should be possible).
If you have good quality brakes then they shouldn't need bleeding, once installed. You might want to do an oil change once in a while (every couple of years) but that's more a case of peace of mind than anything else. My experience from other systems is that water will get in at some point cause problems and that is irrespective of whether the system uses dot 5.1 or mineral oil. Flushing the system is easy and you can do it at the same time as doing the Rohloff oil change. With the hope bleed kit it takes about 15 minutes.
/Andy
P.S. don't buy dot 5.1 in a bike shop, you'll just get ripped off. Car/motorbike places are a LOT cheaper for the same thing.