Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: navrig on October 31, 2022, 08:12:30 am
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This is my umpteenth post seeking advice in advance of what will b my first long tour.
I am planning Northern Spain to Athens NOT camping so using hostels, WarmShowers and cheap hotels. I will mostly be solo. I will be carrying rear panniers and a bar bag with, maybe, a top bag or a drybag strapped to the rack.
I have done a short, 4 day, tour using my proposed setup but whilst that was long enough to confirm that I will have enough luggage space it wasn't long enough to experience some of the niggles which may arise over a longer tour.
I plan to cycle 5 days in every 7 taking 2 days to be a tourist and actually see places of interest. On the days off I may cycle or may leave the bike at the hostel.
My questions:
When I ordered my bike I didn't think about the need for a bike stand. Given my proposed setup how much convenience would I get from having a stand fixed to the frame?
My bike is a Shand Stoater - is fixing a stand an option with no risk to frame damage (I can ask this of Shand)?
I also have noticed that some people have straps which stop the front wheel swinging-in when using the stand. Is that a necessity?
I am intending on taking a lock & cable or a proprietary bike lock. Typically, do hostels in Europe provide bike storage?
I am also thinking of taking a cafe lock to be used when I am simply stopping for lunch, the toilet or popping into a shop. Between that and leaving the bike in top gear I think that should be enough of a deterrent for opportunist thieves. Any thoughts?
I have a hub dynamo with front and rear lights. I wont use the dynamo for charging anything else. Is it recommended that I also use a flashing rear light (as a roadie I usually have 2 attached to my road bike).
I have never had a rear view mirror attached to a bike. I definitely do not want a helmet mirror so that leaves one fixed in the bar end (drop bars) or one fixed to the drops. What are the general preferences?
I am looking at one of these at the moment
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/sprintech-racing-road-mirrors-black/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/sprintech-racing-road-mirrors-black/)
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This https://mirrycle.com/item/original-mirrycle-mirror/ is the best mirror I've ever used. Takes away no usable space (you can ride on the hoods as normal) and the positioning for road view is superb. Drilled my brake to accept this model - never used the 'newer' version. It really is good!
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For drop bars, my preferred compromise is this:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/zefal-cyclop-bar-end-mirror/
Fixed on the bar end. It folds back easily when parking the bike. Cheap, and not particularly good optically, but it does the job for me.
I tried something similar to the Mirrycycle, but didn't like the brake hood attachment. The Sprintech wasn't far enough out, obscured by luggage and clothing.
My preferred mirror for viewing is this B&M:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/accessories/busch-muller-cycle-star-mirror-fits-to-handlebar-end-short-stem
Less distorsion, bigger and better-shaped mirror. But it isn't designed to fold back and is therefore vulnerable to falls or knocks.
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Bike stand - I never bother. Most times there is a wall or vegetation to lean the bike against. When there isn't I lay the bike on its side on the ground.
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Locks. On the bikes I use for touring I have ring lock fixed to the frame. This is my short-stay lock for things like toilet stops and popping into a baker's shop.
Complemented by a U lock and thick plastified cable, which I use to attach the bike to something fixed (lamp-post, etc) for longer stops, including supermakets. The Ortleib rear panniers can be secured by threading their wire security loops over the ring lock.
On a lightweight bike for day rides I am careful where I stop. I carry a minimalist cable lock if I don't intend to stop, this is for unplanned short stops. If I intend to have a lunch stop at a restaurant or something else where I leave the bike I carry the U-lock.
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Lighting. I have fixed hub dynamo lighting, for my touring bikes two rear dynamo lamps, on the lightweights only one. In both cases a battery powered rear LED lamp as well.
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When using hotels and hostels, so far they have always provided somewhere to park the bike. Once or twice I have had to carry it up stairs and put it in the bedroom.
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Not sure why you are opposed to a helmet mirror, that is the only one I consider, have used it for almost two decades. First photo. I have only been in places where we drive on the right side of the road, thus mirror is on the left side. My mirror is not designed in a way that would make it work on the other side of my helmet. The only thing I do not like about this mirror is when I ride east just before sunset and have the sun in my eyes, or west just after sunrise. But, if you do not like them, then get a bike mounted one.
When touring, assuming most thieves are opportunists, I use bolt on skewers that take a 5mm allen wrench to open. Thus, I am not too obsessive about making sure that I lock both wheels to the frame. Any 5mm wrench will work, thus I do not worry about losing a special key, and I keep a spare wrench packed with my tubes to make sure I can change a flat. I use Halo brand bolt on skewers. They are a bit odd, there is only one spring, on one end there is a tab that you have to make sure you have it rotated into the slot before you tighten it. I assume that an opportunist thief does not have a multi-wrench in their pocket.
Second photo, I carry a small lock like skiers use for those time that I run into a store.
Also, in that second photo you can see the type of side stand I use on my steel framed touring bikes. In the photo it is folded up. But I know nothing about your bike. Mine is a Greenfield.
Sometimes when I park my bike, I use an elastic to lock my front wheel to keep it from rolling. It is an elastic hair band, extra thick one. Third photo, I have two elastic bands in use.
I typically use two taillights that are battery powered. One is in flash mode. The other is either a spare, or if in overcast or rain the second is also in flash mode. I have never ridden in locations where flashers are illegal, but such places exist.
Have a great trip.
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Martin - thanks for your suggestions. I'll have a closer look. On my short tour I wasn't put off with having to find a wall or tree for holding the bike up but I did find that manoeuvring the bike, fully loaded, to the wall was awkward. Hence my question about stands.
Mick - I have the same "ski" lock which I use from time to time. My axles are through axles and they need a 6mm allan key to remove the wheels so a similar set up to yourself. Your stand looks robust as it is sharing the load across two tubes rather than just the chain-stay.
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You're maybe in danger of overthinking this - I know it's your first big tour, but it isn't your first cycling and if you don't usually use a mirror, I see no reason you'd change that for a tour. Likewise a stand, I don't use one, though I know others wouldn't be without, make your own mind up, though I'd consult the manufacturer before clamping anything to an expensive frame. I don't find a loaded bike harder to manoeuvre than an unloaded one, even if I did I don't think a stand would help, you still have to get it somewhere suitable. I find panniers make it easier to lean against something, partly because they offer a large softer surface than a frame tube and also because they're a lot less fragile than paint! If I can't find somewhere to lean the bike I'll lay it down.
Locks are always a compromise, my bikes are now insured so I'm always carrying something that won't be questioned by the insurers should I make a claim. Currently a Sold Secure Gold AXA chain which is about 1.8kg. A D lock is more secure, but a chain increases the options. My wheels are on security skewers, not the most secure but some deterrent, I try to get the chain to include the rear wheel. I don't carry an additional cafe lock.
I've only once failed to get reasonably secure bike storage in any accommodation, sometime they're expecting it, other times they need some degree of persuasion. The exception was an Amsterdam hotel where they insisted the bike stay outside on the street in a public bike stand.
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if you don't usually use a mirror, I see no reason you'd change that for a tour.
I'd agree with that.
Up till a few years ago I didn't use a mirror when cycling. A combination of hearing and frequent turning my head gave me enough awareness of what was behind me.
With avancing age I find it more difficult to turn my head and look behind. I still turn my head to look behind, but I do it less often, so a mirror is now useful.
I tried a glasses mounted mirror, this would have been the most convenient solution but I couldn't get used to it.
So I now have mirrors fitted to each bike.
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I use Halo brand bolt on skewers. They are a bit odd, there is only one spring, on one end there is a tab that you have to make sure you have it rotated into the slot before you tighten it. I assume that an opportunist thief does not have a multi-wrench in their pocket.
I have exactly that setup on both my main touring bike and my Rohloff-equipped lightweight.
For the same reason (I reckon it slightly discourages wheel theft), and also because I just don't like quick releases.
If I get a puncture it doesn't slow me down much - I have to use my toolkit anyway to get the tyre off to change or patch the tube, so it isn't a problem to get out the necessary Allen key (for skewers) or ring spanner (for my other bikes that use Nexus or Sturmey-Archer rear hubs with nutted axles).
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if you don't usually use a mirror, I see no reason you'd change that for a tour.
I see where you are coming from however roadies very rarely use mirrors, it just isn't the thing to do!! We like to think it's a weight thing but in reality it is a pride thing!!
However over the last few years I have found myself cycling in some very different circumstances.
For example riding in Bahrain where most drivers have almost no regards for cyclist safety and where you are given no space at all. Whilst I didn't have any accidents I certainly felt threatened at times and know better what was behind me may have helped.
Last year I was cycling in Saigon, a city of about 12 million people and 9 million registered motorbikes. Traffic was absolutely chaotic especially during rush hour. A swivel head would have been the ideal solution so a mirror may have been a help. My wife insisted that she had a mirror on her bike and she used it a lot.
Like MartinF, I am finding looking over the shoulder harder and harder so, again, a mirror may help.
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+1 for the Halowheel skewers.
Locks: For longer tours, I use a small D-lock (3") left over from my motorcycling days, plus a 10mm x 1m Kryptoflex cable with loops at both ends. Total weight is maybe 650 gms, haven't weighed it in a while.
Stand: I use a Click-stand, again on longer tours. I use "Bike-brake" bands on each handlebar drop, to lock one or both brakes.
To control wheel flop, I use an 8" quick-release rubber tie, cost about 50 cents, photo below. Another option is a narrow strap used to hold X-country skis together (15mm light webbing, maybe 10" long, with a lightly sprung toothed buckle).
Mirrors: To each his/her own. For years, I've used a "Take-a-look" mirror which clips onto my helmet visor. It can go on either the right or left side, according to the side of the road I'm riding on. I've found it light, infinitely adjustable, and wouldn't be without it. I tried several different types of bar-mounted mirrors, and ditched them all for one reason or another -- probably the main one being that they were regularly bashed when I leaned the bike against a wall.
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a mirror may help
Navrig, over five decades, I logged a lot of miles on motorcycles in very dodgy traffic conditions. Never hit anything/anyone, and was never hit, but I became, er, mildly obsessive about 360º vision.
I've only been cycle-touring for the past 20-plus years, but one of the first lessons I transferred from my motorcycling days was the imperative of a rearview mirror. I first tried bar-mounted mirrors, as above, but found that my frequent adjustments of my posture (hands & back) on my touring bike made the fixed positions of those bar mirrors less than satisfactory. (Along with the regular bashing against the walls.)
The helmet-mounted mirror isn't perfect, but handles my changes in posture much more effectively than the bar-mounted mirrors.
You may want to try a few options -- the costs aren't so great, after all.
Cheers, John
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if you don't usually use a mirror, I see no reason you'd change that for a tour.
I see where you are coming from however roadies very rarely use mirrors, it just isn't the thing to do!! We like to think it's a weight thing but in reality it is a pride thing!!
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I am in USA, I almost never see a roadie using a mirror. But I see a lot of people bike touring with mirrors. And a lot of randonneurs (audax) use mirrors, they spend a lot of time on roads.
I think that the roadies (1) watch too much bike racing videos and never see bike racers wearing a mirror so they of course want to look like them, and (2) usually roadies ride on roads that have very minimal traffic, thus would almost never use a mirror. But bike tourists often are forced to ride on roads that have a lot more traffic on them, thus use a mirror more. I suspect that UCI has a rule against mirrors, thus a road racer that is in the lead a hundred meters before the finish can't use a mirror to see who is drafting them.
My neck is 68 years old, I can't quickly look directly back any more, but can slowly move my head that far, but if I do it slowly then I am no longer going in the same direction. I no longer try to look back.
I drove a pickup truck for 17 years that had a topper on it that prevented me from seeing in my blind spots, I got very used to relying on mirrors.
And like John S, I drove a motorcycle a lot where you like to know what is going on around you all the time.
I had one trip to the emergency room when I stopped for a light that turned red, that is when the guy behind me that thought he could accelerate and make it through the light on amber ran into me and my motorcycle even though I had already come to a full stop. That was over three decades ago, but I still to this day am looking in the mirror as I come to a stop at a light that is turning red because of that.
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I drove a pickup truck for 17 years that had a topper on it that prevented me from seeing in my blind spots, I got very used to relying on mirrors.
I also rely on the mirrors when I drive a motor vehicule. When I trained for my bus/HGV licence I was told to check my mirrors at least every 8 seconds. That training and subsequent jobs as a bus driver also made me more aware of the blind spots around large vehicules.
On a bicycle, until recently I replaced the mirror check by looking behind (not as often as 8 seconds, but very often) and using hearing, which is very useful on a bicycle but much less useful when driving a motor vehicule.
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... and using hearing, which is very useful on a bicycle but much less useful when driving a motor vehicle.
Be very careful on sound, you begin to rely on it but newer electric vehicles can be nearly silent.
I used to know a number of highway construction engineers and occasionally saw them at meetings. They all really hated hybrid cars because they were so quiet. The engineers oversaw construction and were used to relying on sound and sometimes would step out into a traffic lane when they did not hear any traffic coming, some of them had some very close calls.
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Just adding another point to reflect on regarding mirrors. Presumably you are UK based and therefore attuned to riding on left of road. Your head movements for checking traffic will instinctively go over your right shoulder.
In Spain you'll need to keep you wits about you. Unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar circumstances in an unfamiliar land may find you inadvertently looking over the wrong shoulder in an emergency situation which is the wrong time to wonder if mirrors might have been a good idea.
I'd suggest getting a set for the tour. You may find that you will find them a useful addition you'll keep when you return. I only recently converted to a mirror user and don't understand why I put off so long. Great inexpensive must haves in my opinion.
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Just adding another point to reflect on regarding mirrors. Presumably you are UK based and therefore attuned to riding on left of road. Your head movements for checking traffic will instinctively go over your right shoulder.
In Spain you'll need to keep you wits about you. Unfamiliar roads and unfamiliar circumstances in an unfamiliar land may find you inadvertently looking over the wrong shoulder in an emergency situation which is the wrong time to wonder if mirrors might have been a good idea.
I'd suggest getting a set for the tour. You may find that you will find them a useful addition you'll keep when you return. I only recently converted to a mirror user and don't understand why I put off so long. Great inexpensive must haves in my opinion.
I've lived, driven and cycled extensively in countries which drive on the right so I am not overly concerned about that.
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Be very careful on sound, you begin to rely on it but newer electric vehicles can be nearly silent.
Yes. Hearing is a complement to visual checks, and in traffic the sound made by electric vehicles is generally masked by the engine noise from other vehicles.
When there isn't any other traffic, electric vehicles generally make enough tyre and wind noise so that I can hear them coming, the exceptions are some electric bicycles and ordinary bicycles. In these two cases the speed differential is generally not all that great, so on ordinary roads where there is usually plenty of room for a two wheeler to overtake safely I reckon they don't pose much of a threat.
But I found that inexperienced tourists riding electric bikes too fast for the traffic conditions on narrow but busy cyclepaths were a real danger when I had a 4 month survey contract on an island.
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But I found that inexperienced tourists riding electric bikes too fast for the traffic conditions on narrow but busy cyclepaths were a real danger when I had a 4 month survey contract on an island.
Yup. Three years ago, I was riding on a gravel trail, my Nomad Mk II heavily loaded so I had some gravel noise, it was quite windy so I had the wind noise, which included the wind blowing through the trees, and the rain noise. I was passed by someone on an e-bike that I think was doing at least 45 km/hr. This is on a bike trail that is less than two meters wide. With the ambient noise, I had no clue that someone was coming up from behind so fast.
At least the e-bike riders in my community generally ride slower. I think they are trying to make sure that they do not cause an accident since they are not allowed on the bike paths if they are using their motor. But I see a lot of e-bikes on the bike paths that are illegally using their motors.
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Rural France somewhere near Digne-les-Bains: stayed at modest-but-nice hotel in a village-town of about 8,000. Put bikes towards back of hotel as directed by employee,bagan to lock them...employee said 'this isnt Liverpool here you know ;). They wont go missing. They didnt. Can only report that cycle theft may not be as prevelant as it may be in the UK. The populations and density of people are less than this crowded island. I get the impression that the proprietors know their towns,reputations,clientel and wouldnt want any hoo-ha or police involvement should somehting go AWOL. Only carry a light(ish) lock. Do what you feel is right: but no need to carry a 3kgs New York Bronx Thudbuster job.
Plus one for mirror(s). Who is the German world tourist(40 years on the road)? Never worn a helmet,has always useda mirror(s)
Against my advice: some European cities have a reputation for theft: Barcelona. Naples?
If I was riding some £4K job and had worked many hours in order to buy that cycle and ride,I might be considering buying x4 3kgs New York Thudbuster anti-grinder U locks ;)
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Rural France somewhere near Digne-les-Bains: stayed at modest-but-nice hotel in a village-town of about 8,000. Put bikes towards back of hotel as directed by employee,bagan to lock them...employee said 'this isnt Liverpool here you know ;). They wont go missing.
Most times you would be Ok. But if the place where you left the bikes is not behind a locked gate or door, even in a calm town you could still lose a bike from someone who has had a few drinks and "borrows" the bike to get home.
That happened to a visitor to our island flat who left a (rented) bike unlocked outside during the night. The bike was never found, it was probably dumped, maybe in the sea. After that I fitted frame locks to our visitor bikes, a frame lock is always there and takes seconds to lock or unlock.
I reckon that if you have bothered to carry a lock you may as well use it.
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Locks - I have had a look on line and some of those D-locks are huge and will be a nightmare to carry. Going to a smaller one takes away some of the functionality of a D-lock as it won't be long enough to go round a fixed object like a bike rack. So I am going for an Abus padlock and Abus coated wire, both of which I already own and use for securing bikes to the roof rack.
Mirrors - I'll choose one and see how it goes. It it's really crap I'll pop into a Decathlon enroute and get something different.
Kick stand - I suspect I won't fir one and will simply look for a nearby wall.
As someone said earlier in this thread most choices are a compromise of some sort or another.
Next thing to look for is a tool pouch or tool roll. Looking at this
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/luggageluggage-accessories/roswheel-offroad-tool-pouch-1-litre/?geoc=IT
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Next thing to look for is a tool pouch or tool roll. Looking at this
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/luggageluggage-accessories/roswheel-offroad-tool-pouch-1-litre/?geoc=IT
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Consider these and save yourself a penny or two.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354331361895?epid=2256113733&hash=item527fcb8267:g:SRYAAOSwKi1jSBVd&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4EBNJ1jfL8XNym%2Fo32iiJXwul8n4PH%2ByNH9axuwSz%2B48Y09WyI4uevVZua1BnBNvd7vvImzzmolXWhVxLSW0PQ5hVWD8el19wjWd4fXHiljxujw6zobMNz6WJyIRjBANQVLvzV%2BQ25uhZOSJYJVJaMqzrIhDhwIYRJIBfVcH0oktkwipVfFIK%2FsM0lhr1e7%2FGqmwKU181vGXRPC3NBwbhVsY441jjbGLafvV1WreRpPfxT6Sy%2FHEDAlXAwI5JlWJ1Hm9WLuj5xlx3L170z0pF1hw5kLxGSh%2BO8BIkQZy7ddq%7Ctkp%3ABFBM5q_e94dh
There’s a ‘small’ one about 22cmx15x7 and a larger one 28x15x7. Either should fit snugly at the bottom of one of your panniers. Velcro dividers. Will take a couple of inner tubes + sundry tools and other small things.🙂
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I use one of these: https://www.topeak.com/global/en/product/129-AERO-WEDGE-PACK (https://www.topeak.com/global/en/product/129-AERO-WEDGE-PACK)
The Large size is about 2 litres. Cost in eastern Ontario is usually around Cdn $35 - 40.
I rarely use it in its expanded format. It fits nicely between my saddle and the tent on my Mercury's rear rack.
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Having ridden in a LOT of rain, I always value a seat-mounted tool bag that is truly waterproof, so I prefer the roll-top Ortlieb Underseat Bag in either Medium or Large size. They offer a variety of similar bags in their product line. These larger bags can roll down pretty small or expand to take other things depending on size, like wind jackets, 3/4 leggings, some energy bars, etc.
I used to use bags made of coated nylon but with various openings like zippers. Sadly, I found despite packaging my tools inside zip-top bags inside the tool bags, vibration caused wear-through combined with leakage of rainwater resulted in rusty tools. The roll-top Orts have been the perfect solution for my more frequently used tools. The specialized tools needed only for longer tools or emergencies are stored separately in the bottom of a pannier (along with a spare folding tire for long tours).
Best,
Dan.
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The roll-top Orts have been the perfect solution for my more frequently used tools. The specialized tools needed only for longer tools or emergencies are stored separately in the bottom of a pannier (along with a spare folding tire for long tours).
Best,
Dan.
My bags are different but the principal the same - Puncture kit and small multitool (Or a couple of smaller individual tools) are somewhere I can get at them instantly, less likely tools and spares at the bottom of a pannier. Not wishing to tempt fate, but I don't recall ever needing the main tool kit at the roadside for my own bike, I've used/lent it to others a couple of times and for some maintenance between rides, so it doesn't need to be so easily accessible.
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I use one of these: https://www.topeak.com/global/en/product/129-AERO-WEDGE-PACK (https://www.topeak.com/global/en/product/129-AERO-WEDGE-PACK)
The Large size is about 2 litres. Cost in eastern Ontario is usually around Cdn $35 - 40.
I rarely use it in its expanded format. It fits nicely between my saddle and the tent on my Mercury's rear rack.
I have had several of these (and smaller versions)over the years for my other bikes. I will probably take one with a tube and tyre levers with larger tools in the other bag.
Consider these and save yourself a penny or two.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354331361895?epid=2256113733&hash=item527fcb8267:g:SRYAAOSwKi1jSBVd&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4EBNJ1jfL8XNym%2Fo32iiJXwul8n4PH%2ByNH9axuwSz%2B48Y09WyI4uevVZua1BnBNvd7vvImzzmolXWhVxLSW0PQ5hVWD8el19wjWd4fXHiljxujw6zobMNz6WJyIRjBANQVLvzV%2BQ25uhZOSJYJVJaMqzrIhDhwIYRJIBfVcH0oktkwipVfFIK%2FsM0lhr1e7%2FGqmwKU181vGXRPC3NBwbhVsY441jjbGLafvV1WreRpPfxT6Sy%2FHEDAlXAwI5JlWJ1Hm9WLuj5xlx3L170z0pF1hw5kLxGSh%2BO8BIkQZy7ddq%7Ctkp%3ABFBM5q_e94dh
There’s a ‘small’ one about 22cmx15x7 and a larger one 28x15x7. Either should fit snugly at the bottom of one of your panniers. Velcro dividers. Will take a couple of inner tubes + sundry tools and other small things.🙂
Thanks for this. I have a couple similar containers bought for cameras and portable speakers. Maybe I can re-provision. Good suggestion.
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Think Andy Blance also used a fishing-type bag for his tools. Might be in mega brochure?
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When touring I have my spare tubes (2), a patch kit, a couple disposable plastic gloves (like medical gloves), and a 5mm allen wrench in a small bag on my bike where it is easy to get to. That said, I have only had one puncture on a bike tour, so having it handy was not that important but I always keep it handy anyway. The triangular bag strapped on my seatpost and top tube in the photo has my spare tubes.
I usually have my pump (usually tour with a Lezyne Micro Floor Drive) strapped to the frame, but if I was in a high crime area it would instead be in a pannier. I would not want a good expensive pump to disappear while I am in a store.
And my tools and spares bag is a nylon zipper bag that is buried in the bottom of a pannier because the likelihood of needing it during the day while riding is minimal and because it is heavy so lower is better for center of gravity.
I think the tool pouch cost only a few dollars. You do not need anything too fancy for that. To keep the internals organized, zip lock baggies are great for that.
The only maintenance or spares item that fits in the category of needing to use it frequently is my chain lube, I keep that in my handlebar bag so that it is easy to get out when I think of it. I also keep a tiny little minimal multitool in a pocket if I need to adjust something or tighten a bolt, my more robust complete multitool is in my tool bag.
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Having ridden in a LOT of rain, I always value a seat-mounted tool bag that is truly waterproof, so I prefer the roll-top Ortlieb Underseat Bag in either Medium or Large size...
...I used to use bags made of coated nylon but with various openings like zippers. Sadly, I found despite packaging my tools inside zip-top bags inside the tool bags, vibration caused wear-through combined with leakage of rainwater resulted in rusty tools. The roll-top Orts have been the perfect solution for my more frequently used tools. The specialized tools needed only for longer tools or emergencies are stored separately in the bottom of a pannier (along with a spare folding tire for long tours).
This is my exact same experience with tool storage and transport for tours - except I am fine with a small Ortlieb seat-pack for my day-ride tours. The bigger tool-kit, used for club group rides, sits in the bottom of one front pannier. It has been through a series of iterations - a draw-string synthetic 'leather' bag (wore out rapidly), tool-roll stitched up in old denim (good life but wore holes), a zippered rectangular cordura fabric packing case (got awfully grungy), and then a standard large pencil-case (grease-tub leaked all through it and the zipper broke). It is now stored in a robust Jack Stillman waxed canvas tool-roll.
https://www.jackstillman.com.au/products/f1-waxed-canvas-tool-roll