Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Andre Jute on October 24, 2014, 10:33:56 pm
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I too am in the market for a new cycling jacket. For about 20 years I've used a non-cycling yellow rain jacket, now beyond washing clean, so I'm used to plenty of pockets and a fairly loose fit, so that the jacket does year-round service, even over a sweater or a fleece top.. For vents I took a paper punch to the fabric under the flap right across the shoulders but it's never too hot here and I'm under strict medical injunction not to run my respiration up to where overheating becomes a problem, so ventilation should be good but needn't be exceptional.
I sit in a pretty upright position, so I don't want a jacket pre-shaped to a roadie crouch. My key consideration is absolutely maximum visibility in all cycling conditions day and night.
What do you chaps thinks of the Proviz Reflect360 Jacket? This is the shop's own review but their photos tell the story:
http://blog.koo-bikes.com/proviz-reflect360-jacket-review/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=New-Kids-Newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter
More particular info on the sales page:
http://www.koo-bikes.com/proviz-reflect-360-jacket-mens-silver.html
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That looks a cool jacket Andre and a great price 2 chest pockets one rear zipped yeah if i had the dosh. ;)
jags.
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During daylight it is a modest grey colour.
Personally I'd rather have something brighter than grey - think overcast days and drizzle.
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During daylight it is a modest grey colour.
Personally I'd rather have something brighter than grey - think overcast days and drizzle.
Yes, that struck me too. According to the photographs, and particularly the one I included above, during daylight the reflectivity works only when the driver has his lamps switched on...
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Andre,
A couple weeks ago, I was at REI, looking at Sugoi's ZAP jacket; it might better fit your needs. The cut looked as if it would work as well for riding upright as it would in a full-aero tuck on drops (their jackets come in fitted and semi-fitted designs as shown here: http://www.sugoi.com/usa/bike/men/outerwear.html?p=1&limit=all ).
It uses fabric optimized for daytime conspicuity, sprinkled with "dots" of reflective material. Because of the grid pattern, I'd estimate between 20%-33% of the jacket's surface area is reflective. I took a couple photos with the flash on my phone and have attached them below. I have not seen it at night myself, but the daytime colors range from muted/black to neon high-viz yellow. The Versa model has magnetic (!) sleeves that convert it between jacket and vest/gillet for greater versatility. I like the idea of having the sleeves connected via a cape. They store in the zippered back pocket.
I've found Sugoi's design and materials to be top-notch and durable and I regularly use my Sugoi stretch-reflective/neon helmet cover in foul weather traffic riding. I've been told it is very noticeable above traffic from 3/4 mile away on grey and rainy days. Car drivers have commented positively on it while I've waited at traffic lights.
More here:
• REI Description, video and user review: http://www.rei.com/product/875014/sugoi-zap-versa-bike-jacket-mens
• Sugoi's homepage: http://www.sugoi.com/usa/
• Sugoi's webpage on the jacket: http://www.sugoi.com/usa/zap-bike-jacket-10017559.html
• YouTube video showing the jacket: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGPuwAQFRmw
Something like this might fit your needs for day and nighttime visibility, Andre.
Best,
Dan.
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Thank you so much, Dan. I'll look into that one too. Two immediate concerns: like the Proviz jacket it lights up only under artificial light, and I wonder how durable beads "silkscreened on" could be.
There's a lot of clever tech out there when you start looking for something as "simple" as a jacket!
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My key consideration is absolutely maximum visibility in all cycling conditions day and night.
For daytime visibility, Dayglo yellow is best, followed by orange.
At night, white, followed by yellow for lateral visibility, reasonable large panels of any colour reflective material for visibility from behind and anywhere else the driver's lights will reflect back to him.
I often don't want conspicuous colours once I get to my destination, so compromise and use a cheap dayglo yellow jacket with reflective stripes over ordinary clothing/hiking style raingear.
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Andre,
If my experience is anything to go by, most reflective fabrics are at their brightest when new and clean. Reflective glass beads in a matrix comprise a rough surface that is superb at catching and retaining fine dust and dirty water. It is equally hard to scrub clean without dulling the reflective properties.
I've found my best strategy with such garments is to take real pains to keep them clean, which also makes for less washing, which can also lead to dulling.
How durable might silkscreen dots/coatings be? I've found the thinner varieties to be more flexible and longer lasting. When they are laid on too thick, they become stiffer than the surrounding fabric and tend to peel from their edges.
With my luck, I'd get chain oil or -- worse yet -- rim oxide on a new jacket with the first wet ride. That has happened to each of my last three. I now just shrug and say, "Perhaps .05% of the surface area is flawed. That leaves a lot for visibility". It is also why I save the newer/better stuff for day rides and use the older/stained clothing for extended tours, which are always much harder on my wearable kit. Intense sun tends to fade my hi-viz stuff pretty quickly so I save it mainly for rainy/dull days, passing it down my clothing food chain as it becomes paler.
With reasonable care, I think one could get pretty good service from both the hi-viz colors and reflective coatings.
Another option would be to get a hi-viz jacket for daytime and cover it with a compactly stowable reflective vest for nighttime use. I bought a TÜV-approved neon yellow mesh safety vest with 3M Scotchlite stripes at an apothecary at the Titisee in Baden-Württemberg for 2 Euro that later worked great keeping me safe transiting a series of 21 very dark and sometimes lengthy Serbian tunnels amid car and truck traffic. Worn over my neon yellow long-sleeved sun jersey, I felt much safer night and day and the combo made for a better solution with lower replacement costs.
Best,
Dan.
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Andre,
I would go for something orange or red, I have jackets in yellow, orange and red, red is my 1st choice for general cycling use.
My reasoning is from experience sailing and looking for marks at sea.
Yellow is the best but only when the sun shines, fine if you only ride on sunny days.
As you ride in Ireland I would make allowances for the variable weather, orange or red are more easily seen in poor weather.
Julian.
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Andre, have you already disounted the humble hi vis vest? No chance of being mistaken for a roadie or a hipster ;)
Lo tech, low price, goes over anything you happen to be wearing at the time, easy to carry if not worn http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/50200916/
Happy saving
Ian
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That's the same vest I used. Works great, stuffs compactly into the smallest of pockets and costs a pittance.
All the best,
Dan.
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Gentlemen, you're a fount of wisdom and intelligence, if not necessarily of good taste (but then, how could you display good taste without being rude when we're discussing beaded jackets for men!). Thanks for all the good information.
I have dayglo Sam Brownes and thin gillets for overwear, but they're too much of a nuisance for a utility cyclist who wants to jump on the bike in what he's wearing, not wait to put on special clothes.
I'm off the idea of the ProViz jacket. It will get dirty too easily, it isn't as visible as it should be in the daytime unless cars have their headlamps on, and the durability of the fabric is unproven.
I have a coatrack full of jackets that for one reason or another won't do and I suspect the ProViz will end up on it rather soon. Also, the maker's name so big across the back is very offputting; if people want me to advertise their products, they should pay me, not expect me to do it free of charge.
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Personally I'd rather have something brighter than grey - think overcast days and drizzle.
Yes, that struck me too. According to the photographs, and particularly the one I included above, during daylight the reflectivity works only when the driver has his lamps switched on...
Andre,
Maybe the Hump Strobe Cycling Jacket (also tested by Koo bikes) would be bettter suited to those dull overcast drizzly kind of days.
http://blog.koo-bikes.com/hump-strobe-cycling-jacket-first-impression/
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I took a look at the HUMP Strobe, for which thanks. The HUMP signage is a bit in yer face but I'll keep it in mind.
However, the colour of the HUMP jacket on test, and remarks by Julian above, reminded me that my physician has an orange Altura Night Vision jacket which is visible a long, long way down the road when i stop to wait for him. This is a wellknown jacket with a track record, from a reputable British maker.
Altura Night Vision jacket:
http://www.altura.co.uk/products/detail/AL22NVI3
Anyone know anything against the Altura Night Vision jacket?
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Andre,
Having read a number of reviews on this jacket, the "cons" are summed up most nicely here:
http://road.cc/content/review/99241-altura-night-vision-jacket
The drawbacks sound largely reasonable to me, but I can see a couple that might be stoppers in specific circumstances.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks for that Dan. That's about what one would expect. The quibbles don't bother me: I wear leather dress gloves summer and winter, and I am never out in heavy rain for long enough for the neckband liner to become soaked. Someone did say to me quite a few years ago that I could spend quite a bit more and not get a better jacket, because a long-running popular jacket benefits from economies of scale. The one I saw close-up recently on a riding partner looked good.
Well, that's a benchmark, unless I hear of something better.
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I've been using an Altura Night Vision jacket for quite a few years now. It works - does what it says on the tin! It's on the roomy side, but not too much; has washed well without damaging the waterproofness; says do not tumble dry but I've found low temp tumbling fine for a quick turn round on wet days. I have had to reglue the velcro onto the rubber tabs of the wrist closures but otherwise no problems.
It's main drawback I guess is it is a little heavy for true summer use (a short season in Britain anyway!) and it could be a little more breathable. And I should probably not have bought the black version!
The best thing about it though is it's comfortable - I like wearing it. Long after the (very reasonable) price is forgotten, the jacket is just a pleasure to use.
I've been looking at more visible alternatives recently (as I said mine is black!) and I liked the fit of a Gore Path jacket in my local bike shop - but it's £160 against £60 for the Altura Night Vision. I may well end up buying another in a brighter colour!
Hope this is helpful?
Nich (who hadn't realised you could change the title of a thread as it's scope progressed - initially confusing, but ultimately very useful!)
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Thanks for that enthusiastic personal report about the Alture Night Vision jacket, Nich.
I have a Goretex jacket but it's more of a coat, intended to climb Mount Everest (Chris Bonington did, wearing one of those); it's pretty clumsy for cycling in, and hot as hell, even though it is nothing but a hefty nylon shell, no lining or net even. I used it for many years for hillwalking; up some of our mountains you really don't want to be caught with flimsy gear -- especially in the places where the only entrance to the path at the bottom of the mountain is through an arch in which the council has lovingly put up photographs of everyone who died on the mountain since the year dot, with the clear intention of discouraging anyone else from being stupid.
Low temp tumbling is the way you bring the nap back up on the outside of the nylon shell; Berghaus Goretex jackets come with a little booklet explaining this and other matters. It's a substantial part of the waterproofing of nylon overwear. The Gore layer isn't waterproof at all; it merely passes water vapor outwards.
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https://www.google.ie/search?q=carradice+rain+capes&rlz=1T4ADFA_enIE462IE462&tbm=isch&imgil=X52SUXYQ9H9OoM%253A%253BPZ4xNytI85XVdM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.flickr.com%25252Fphotos%25252Fdysphasic%25252F6796758020%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=X52SUXYQ9H9OoM%253A%252CPZ4xNytI85XVdM%252C_&usg=__Wa9XwsOk3qfi6hhSrVYbPnVLCkM%3D&biw=1008&bih=570&ved=0CEcQyjc&ei=6tFMVISbMuKp7AbmnYDIBQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=X52SUXYQ9H9OoM%253A%3BPZ4xNytI85XVdM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fc2.staticflickr.com%252F8%252F7199%252F6796758020_9111cc48e5_z.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252Fdysphasic%252F6796758020%252F%3B640%3B480
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I have also got the Altura Night Vision jacket (the older version rather than the newer Evo one) I took this jacket with me on my trip and really liked it. It was not 100% waterproof, but that was riding in pretty awful conditions for 10 hours or so, however what it did do was keep me warm. So even though dampness had got in to my cycling t-shirt, the jacket kept the wind out and therefore kept my temperature at a good level. It is a bit bulky, but I find the fit very comfortable not too tight but not too billowy (is there such a word?) on the bike. It dried fairly quickly, so if I put it on for a shower, I kept wearing it for half an hour or so after the rain finished and it soon dried. I didn't find it too hot to ride in, but then if the temperature is very warm I would probably not wear a jacket and just get wet. I think the newer Evo version of this jacket is better and has more ventilation - mine doesn't have the pit zips. Mine is also black and I have regretted buying this colour, but it was cheap at the time, but not such a bargain as now I would prefer to replace it with a red or orange one.
I have got a Montane Featherlite jacket that I wear for short showers or when it is too warm for the Altura jacket and I used this a lot on my trip as it folds up very small and weighs next to nothing and is surprisingly warm as it stops the wind. It will withstand light rain for a while so great for short day rides, but would not survive in the day long rain I had at times.
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Anto, I have a cycling cloak that I sent away to Holland for just to try it, and occasionally I wear it for a short ride to the shops. It's the sort of thing you have to grow up with to be comfortable with; it's pretty clumsy. I don't see me wearing it on the hills. One gust of wind... Some years ago at a crossroads where I'd been riding for decades, I was blown over by an unexpected gust of wind on a still day. A trucky who stopped to put me back on my feet said it was well-known to the flatsiders that that crossroads is dangerous because of the wind. He was amazed that I didn't know. I was seriously bruised, black and blue and yellow, from my shoulder to my knee for six weeks, and my doctor didn't help. "Not much wrong with you," he said unfeelingly. "HTF would you know?" I demanded. "See, you walked in here. If it was a really bad fall, you wouldn't be walking. Take two aspirin and sleep on the other side."
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I have also got the Altura Night Vision jacket (the older version rather than the newer Evo one) I took this jacket with me on my trip and really liked it. [snip]
I have got a Montane Featherlite jacket that I wear for short showers or when it is too warm for the Altura jacket [snip]
Jackie, thanks so much for that report. The Montane is out; I'm buying a jacket to last many years and the real lightweights don't have the legs, I don't care whether it folds up small (I chuck what I take off into a Basil Cardiff pannier basket), and I anyway already have several paclite jackets and don't bother to carry them on the bike because the nature and duration of my rides these days are such that if I need weather proofing, I'm wearing it when I leave home, or just get wet and catch a hot shower when I get home no more than an hour or two later. In short, it's good to know that the Montane works, but it isn't what I need; someone else will no doubt be grateful for the recommendation.
However, I'm very interested indeed in what you say about the Altura Night Vision jacket. You throw up another reference point: the 50% more expensive Evo version of the Altura Night Vision jacket has superior venting; I've already noticed that it has more and better pockets, which are also important to me as I carry a pocket wallet on the bike that needs a physical pocket on my jacket when I leave the bike.
Consideration of how I used my previous jacket, which is not cycling-specific, is that it is often the first jacket I grab when I leave the house on foot, so the new "cycling" jacket needs a pocket for a wallet and another for a sketchbook and pen or my homemade postcard pochade tin (6x4x1 inches). Even when I leave the bike to scramble up a hill for a better view, I need good pockets because on anything too steep to ride up (and that's plenty steep when you have a motor and Rohloff gears), I need my hands free to pull myself up by rocks and roots.
Also, we now have another vote against the black Night Vision, which appears to be generally cheaper on sales presumably because it isn't popular, and another preference for the orange or the red. Makes you wonder why a "night vision" range includes a black jacket...
With your help, folks, I'm building a really good decision tree here.
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Hi Andre and everyone else!
I'm Matt from Koo-Bikes, thanks for looking at our reviews of the Hump and Proviz jackets. I thought I'd create and account and add my thoughts to the conversation. Obviously I work for a company selling a few of these jackets, so take it as you will.
Between the Hump series and the Proviz I would personally recommend the Hump. My main concern with the Proviz was (as a few of you have already touched on) how plain and grey the jacket was when not being hit by artificial light. All of my reviews include a long ride out over Dartmoor National Park (we're located down in Plymouth) and it can get quite foggy and misty out there> I just felt that I would take just one driver with there lights off or a tractor, etc to miss you. Bit of an extreme scenario I know, but alternatively I always felt very visible while wearing the either of the Hump jackets.
I liked the Hump jackets so much I ended up purchasing the Hump Signal in blue for myself, so far it's holding up brilliantly against a 6 day a week commute (I don't drive, so it's rain, shine or hurricanes).
Next up on my review list is the Sugio Zap jacket, which I think some one had mentioned earlier. Very excited to try this one out, looks incredibly promising. Hoping to have a full review of that done by the end of the week.
Quick side note, we don't sell this one but I would agree with the other posters and say the Altura Night Vision is well worth a look. I had one a few years back and it served with distinction for 2 hard winters. I would rank the Hump above it as a purely in city, fighting with traffic jacket. But obviously I'm a bit biased ;)
Hope that helps, best of luck making your decision!
Matt
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Thanks for stopping by, Matt, and sharing the benefit of your experience. This is another of my dealers forum, so I'll leave it at this: Folks, I've dealt with Koo Bikes, and they bent over backwards to give satisfaction.
I've taken another look at the HUMP jacket. It's not quite for me: the designer should have stopped three steps back and instead of the black shoulders added two more pockets.
To be fair, where we had arrived, the plain Altura Night Vision jacket too has only the chest and back pockets.
The jacket in the Altura range with two further pockets is the Night Vision Evo, which is about 50% more expensive, £100 v £70. It's not that the precise price bothers me much, because I expect the jacket to last many years, but that I am a Calvinist, and we consider it sinful to spend money without receiving full value in return. ;)
Your remark about not driving rang a bell with me. I gave up the car in 1992 and haven't regretted it for a day.
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Hokkay!
After being distracted by this and that, I've had a chance to fit on the Altura Night Vision jacket belonging to a riding partner, and must say it seems the right sort of material and cut for an all-round jacket.
As I wear my cycling jacket on foot as well (simply because it is kept near the door...), I do need more pockets though, so I've ordered the Altura Night Vision Evo which is substantially more expensive. I bought the yellow one because the orange one isn't available in the Evo line and I don't fancy red on British Racing Green bike (thanks all the same for the maritime reference, Julian -- that rang a bell with me too).
http://www.altura.co.uk/products/detail/AL22EVO3 (http://www.altura.co.uk/products/detail/AL22EVO3)
Delivered to my door just on Euro 103 from Wiggle; amazingly a lot of places are out of stock. The standard Night Vision costs €65 from Wiggle, which makes those extra pockets on the Evo nearly €20 each... Unless the Evo has some other amenity the standard Night Vision doesn't offer.
Thanks to everyone for experience, opinion and wisdom.
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Looking forward to the in-use report, Andre. Best of luck to you; it sounds good for your needs.
Dan.
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The Evo version of the Altura Nightvision has a much more breathable material and pit-zips for extra ventilation compared with the non-Evo version. I'm writing this now because I too have just bought one from Wiggle - on sale at £64.99 (a claimed 35% discount) and though I've not used it in ernest yet I'm very pleased with it!
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The Evo version of the Altura Nightvision has a much more breathable material and pit-zips for extra ventilation compared with the non-Evo version. I'm writing this now because I too have just bought one from Wiggle - on sale at £64.99 (a claimed 35% discount) and though I've not used it in ernest yet I'm very pleased with it!
That's a good price! I haven't reported because the weather has kept me inside and I used my Evo only a few times. About the pit zips, my friend demonstrated the pit zips on his plain Altura Nightvision. I notice the advertising and the specs say the plain Nightvision doesn't have the pit zips, but I saw them with my own eyes, and what's more, they also showed on some advertising photographs. That may have been a limited run, of course. Whether it is worth looking specifically for one of the plain Nightvision with the pit zips is probably a waste of time when the Evo gives you better material and more pockets plus (in mailorder where you can't see the thing before you pay) the certainty of the pit zips, for the same money as the plain model.
Though I can't make a full, considered report, I can say that on the few rides I was able to fit in, even in the winter at temps less than a handful of degrees C above freezing, cold enough to tighten the sleeves, I found the pit zips very useful for controlling body tempature and keeping the wind out. I'm planning on tying larger toggles to their zips to be more easily handled by leather dress gloves, as I foresee operating those zips often on ascents and descents, and as I move in and out of the wind in the valleys and on the hills.
This Altura (Nightvision and Evo) is a very visible jacket. It was the first thing my family commented on when they saw it. The other thing I've already observed, when I went with a pedal pal to buy a jacket for her at a sports shop, is that the Altura is a real bargain among bike jackets. Quite a few others seemed to me, on reading the specs of the material on the card tags, to be rather overpriced fashion items.
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That's a good price! I haven't reported because the weather has kept me inside and I used my Evo only a few times. About the pit zips, my friend demonstrated the pit zips on his plain Altura Nightvision. I notice the advertising and the specs say the plain Nightvision doesn't have the pit zips, but I saw them with my own eyes, and what's more, they also showed on some advertising photographs. That may have been a limited run, of course. Whether it is worth looking specifically for one of the plain Nightvision with the pit zips is probably a waste of time when the Evo gives you better material and more pockets plus (in mailorder where you can't see the thing before you pay) the certainty of the pit zips, for the same money as the plain model.
Though I can't make a full, considered report, I can say that on the few rides I was able to fit in, even in the winter at temps less than a handful of degrees C above freezing, cold enough to tighten the sleeves, I found the pit zips very useful for controlling body tempature and keeping the wind out. I'm planning on tying larger toggles to their zips to be more easily handled by leather dress gloves, as I foresee operating those zips often on ascents and descents, and as I move in and out of the wind in the valleys and on the hills.
This Altura (Nightvision and Evo) is a very visible jacket. It was the first thing my family commented on when they saw it. The other thing I've already observed, when I went with a pedal pal to buy a jacket for her at a sports shop, is that the Altura is a real bargain among bike jackets. Quite a few others seemed to me, on reading the specs of the material on the card tags, to be rather overpriced fashion items.
Andre,
It appears that you are correct about the vents.
According to the description on tredz the Nightvision also has pit zips and rear vents (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Altura-Night-Vision-Waterproof-Jacket-2014_61176.htm).
Also on that site the Nightvision Evo is on sale for £59.99 (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Altura-Night-Vision-Evo-Waterproof-Cycling-Jacket-2014_64198.htm).
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Paramo Quito jacket - magic !
http://www.paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/detail/?pgc=NIKWAXANALOGYLIGHTJACKETQUITOUNISEX
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The original Altura Nightvision certainly had NO pit zips (or hip pockets) but had a nice fit and feel to the fabric. I made the mistake of buying it in black, which now seems too discrete on country lanes in winter daylight!! Hence my purchase of the Evo in yellow - and the extra breathability of the fabric will be welcome on longer rides. I had Wiggle vouchers for birthday and Christmas so was very happy when they had it on offer!!
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According to the description on tredz the Nightvision also has pit zips and rear vents (http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Altura-Night-Vision-Waterproof-Jacket-2014_61176.htm).
Unless the material of the Evo is miles better than on the plain Nightvision, those two extra pockets on the Evo then cost a tenner each at the sales, double that for anyone who paid full price. Ouch. But I must have those pockets because I often wear the jacket off the bike (it's really useful to have a very visible jacket when you stand in roads and lanes painting, or go onto people's private preserves if you don't want to be shot).
Also, in the plain Nightvision, now £40 at the link MacSpud sent, you can choose the orange that Julian advised, which I can tell you from personal experience is very visible indeed, as I have a pedal pal with a plain Nightvision in orange, and I don't have to strain my eyes to pick him out when he falls behind and I wait for him. That orange is more practical too in showing dirt less quickly and less obtrusively than the yellow, which is the other very visible color.
Audax Hopeful: I remember reading that they redesigned the Nightvision at the same time as the Evo appeared. Seems likely that's when the pit zips appeared. I too bought from Wiggle and notice that Wiggle and Paypal first notified me of a charge of Euro 103 (including carriage) but when the Paypal bill came if was for Euro 92, so I got the benefit of an offer that kicked in between placing the order and it shipping or being paid for. Nice touch that, Wiggle! That's about a tenner sterling more than the current sale price, which would anyway be accounted for by carriage.
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There is something that even on short acqaintance concerns me about the Evo. It is the thin fleece on the neckband. My previous yellow cycling jacket lasted roundabout twenty years without any sign of wear except accumulating dirt that eventually proved unlaunderable and caused its retirement; it was a no-name non-cycling-specific chainstore sale item, but beautifully made of quality materials throughout. I don't see that flimsy fleece on the Altura Nightvision or Evo lasting even two years. It looks like a design error, unless it was done deliberately as built-in obsolescence to force punters to buy a new jacket on a regular cycle. (I'm convinced many people buy the Alture Nightvision not after an exhaustive analysis, a process of elimination really, such as I with your help have been able to make, but standing in the shop and judging instantly that it's the best value-for-money jacket available. People doing that rarely have time to consider the implications of finer detail like a fleece-lined collar wearing faster than the rest of the jacket.)
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Look at these: https://www.showerspass.com Everyone here raves about them - including me.