Author Topic: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle  (Read 4434 times)

Danneaux

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Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« on: May 06, 2012, 11:37:09 pm »
Hi All,

For over a decade, Toyota's Prius research group has been engaged in developing a number of projects to complement their line of Prius hybrid automobiles.

One of these is a joint project between Toyota/Saatchi LA and Parlee Cycles/DeepLocal to develop a bicycle that whose shifting operations are controlled by thought using a mashup between a "neural headset" and what appears to be a hacked Shimano Di2. As of last summer, the whole works was controlled by a smartphone, but research apparently continues apace.

Related links"
http://www.toyotapriusprojects.com/#/011 (latest entry appears first)
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20077227-1/prius-project-concept-bike-lets-you-shift-by-thinking/
http://inhabitat.com/the-prius-project-concept-bike-can-shift-gears-with-just-a-thought/
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/07/toyotas-prius-bike-with-thought-controlled-gear-shifters/
Blogged updates: http://prollyisnotprobably.com/?s=pxp+project

Intriguing stuff.

Best,

"Still thinking about it" Dan.

Andre Jute

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 12:19:29 am »
Shimano has two Di2 systems. One is full auto and works with electricity from a hub dynamo to shift the gears according to speed and program; it also includes front and rear adaptive electronic suspension, which works the other way round from that in cars. This system Shimano refers to as Cyber Nexus or Smover. The other Di2 system is a drastically cut-down version which is not automatic at all, but electronically assisted shifting for roadies. This system Shimano calls Dura-Ace Di2.

I have the Cyber Nexus or Smover system on a sporting commuter bike from Trek Benelux. It's a good smooth system and much more efficient than anything a human, no matter how experienced can do. But whether it is really necessary is another story. Trek misjudged the market by putting it on even a faintly sporting bike, and on the day my bike arrived I started reengineering it to be a proper comfort bike (with Trek's enthusiastic help). In any event, full auto bike gears, once declared the wave of the future by the boss of Koga-Miyata, a trendsetting division of Gazelle, has not taken off and remain an oddity in the markets where it has been offered, which are admittedly those in which people are not frightened of bicycles (The Netherlands and Germany). Maybe it would do better in the States, where there is genuine hands-up revulsion at the though of shifting any gears, never mind the crude exposed crunchers seen on derailleur bicycles. I haven't been following it the outcome, but didn't Shimano and Trek a few years ago launch a three-speed automatic hub-geared town bike in the States? Much would hang on its fate in the marketplace.

The cut-down Dura-Ace Di2 panders to the belief of roadies that they know better than the electronics when to shift. It's nonsense. The smoother assisted shift than manually achievable is probably worth fractions of a second, and letting the electronics decide when best to equalize effort would be worth more fractions. But that assumes that the riders are at the highest possible level already. Your average Joe, training for he knows not what, won't see any advantage. The main purpose of most Dura-Ace Di2 is bragging rights down at Le Caff Poseur.

As for a bike controlled by the rider's thoughts, as in the Toyota etc project, the thought of having to wear a headset is a bit off-putting, but many of us routinely wear a helmet, and it could be built into the helmet. The big question, on the analysis above, is, Where is its market?

You (your generic Thorn rider) may be interested in the technical advance, but how many of you will actually lay out the money? (I got my Cyber Nexus bike at a big discount, and Trek kicked in for the delivery from Belgium, just to put one in the hands of a known technofreak writer.) In the end I suspect that these electronic adventures are against the spirit of cycling (simplicity, etc) for the touring/commuting cyclist.

One more thought. The electric bike is definitely the coming trend. If you have enough battery-juice, an electric bike can be a fixie, one gear, with a torquey motor used to "fill in the missing gears". If I were an innovations investor, I'd put my money in this branch of cycling advance rather that the Toyota research. I'd even prefer the already failed Shimano full Di2 over the Toyota version, because I don't think the Di2 marketing, of either variety, has been directed at the most likely markets yet. There's also the American infinitely variable hub gearbox which has a pretty good reliability record and is being taken up in The Netherlands and Germany at as high a rate as one would expect.

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 01:15:32 am »
Quote
The electric bike is definitely the coming trend...
Oh yes, and in the next year or so, they'll also be riding on 650B tires (again). What's old is new again. What's new is new, too!

Both trends are coming, in force. There are too many "Big Names" who are investing large sums for these trends to be ignored. Electric bikes account for a huge surge in all bike sales in The Netherlands ( http://www.bike-eu.com/news/e-bikes-are-turning-dutch-market-upside-down-5784.html ), and I only see the electro-digital integration of bicycles gaining ground. It is logical and probably beneficial (and for tourists as well, if the shifting can be powered by a dynohub, as with variations like your Smover, Andre).

At heart, however, I will (would) miss the visceral pleasure if knowing my own tendons, muscles and viscera are powering me and my stuff forward, and -- yes, I have to admit -- with some pretty substantial effort against some unfriendly terrain. There's a certain primitive satisfaction in that. I like cables, non-indexed shifting, and such, but I am also intrigued by the New. The only constant is Change, and all indications are we're headed toward a world of assisted bicycling en masse.

I'll go even further: I predict once these things take hold on a large scale, bicycles that are solely pedal-powered will be hard to even give away.

Andre, you pondered...
Quote
Maybe it would do better in the States, where there is genuine hands-up revulsion at the though of shifting any gears, never mind the crude exposed crunchers seen on derailleur bicycles.
It will probably take off like a rocket if we can first pry people out of their SUVs. As much as I value the genuine need for assisted bicycling, I also dread its coming to America, where many citizens will go to great lengths to avoid anything actually resembling physical exercise because it equates to "work" in their minds. Taken as a whole, we're a frighteningly sedentary, obese lot, and I fear people will see only sitting on a bike and twisting a throttle as "riding for exercise". I have a friend who is over 400lbs at present, on hearing of power assist, said: "Oh! That appeals to me. I can get my exercise without all the work!". His doctor prescribed supervised, monitored moderate cycling as a gentle way to begin exercise, but all will be for naught if no exercise is involved. It's too easy to "cheat".

A nice essay from you, as always, Andre!

"'Retro-grouch' does not mean anti-technology and I am still mightily intrigued",

 Dan.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 02:35:06 pm by Danneaux »

JWestland

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 03:33:36 pm »
I actual enjoy the fact you need to do "manual work" on a bike...so yes of course electronic shifters will be more efficient (like automatics are too, compared to manual gear shifting in cars) but the element of control this takes away, and the fact that it's one thing less I can do on my bike would put me off, rather than put me on (the bike) :)

Also, the more parts, the more that can break. The more expensive parts...well. So money is another aspect, if it's car VS electro bike no doubt the bike is much cheaper to run. But bike vs electro bike, it's another story again. It will also add significantly to the cost of a bike.

Electro bikes do seem to overcome the "but it's work and I get sweaty" argument against cycling commuting. As a Dutch person I say it's bull, unless you live in a very hilly or windy part of the world, get a Dutch bike and go slow but cycling culture in UK is different.

I guess reliability/cost are main drivers for me, along with the fact I HAVE to pedal, I don't want assistance. (Though talk to me in another 30 years about this :):))

But if electric bikes, di2 etc get people into cycling...well that's always good?

#There is nothing new under the sun
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

jags

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 09:12:31 pm »
I was talking to a friend of mine today FRED great charactor bit contrary but  sound  ;D
anyway i said, hey fred hows the cycling going with you ,ah he said i die on the hill's these days not much fun any more.
i said you know fred you can get your bike upgraded with an electric front wheel and electric shifters.
What he said are you mental sha thats not cycling i'de sooner lie down and die.. ;D ;D
Fred is in his 70s and can still cycle with the best of them but just not on hills.

Dan i reckon all this is just a gimmic  tom parlee should stick to what he does best make super road bikes.

Danneaux

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 10:07:44 pm »
Quote
Dan i reckon all this is just a gimmic...
...and good money from Toyota, I'd reckon. Pretty neat and cool in a Star Trekkish sort of way, but how much effort is it to twitch a lever (shifters) or press a button (Di2)?

...and, as of the last blog post, it only really shifts using an iPhone?!?  Feh. I don't need an iPhone to shift my gears; just twitch a little bar-end lever and it's good and done.

Solution in search of a problem. Or simply an off-center marketing tool.

Shifting has become such a habit, I really don't even think about it, but just do it. I'd be outta luck with this thing.

What I want is a transporter beam so I can Get There without pedaling. Judging by some recent near-misses, I already have a Romulan invisibility cloak. See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8574923.stm

I like Fred.

Best,

Dan.

E-wan

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 12:58:16 pm »
I already have a bike that does this.

It has 1 gear and no freewheel. I therefore get instant fedback via by legs that tels me how the bike is acelerating/ decelerating and then I think about if I need to push harder or not.

I not think that this Tyota thing fits with the philosophy of Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) which I try to apply to mot things

Ewan

JWestland

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 10:21:47 am »
I've gone fixed, I like the fact you can brake with your legs and there's no lazy coasting and you train new muscles.

However a no gear with a freewheel is nearly as simple and you don't run the risk to get kicked off the bike if you need to do a full emergency stop. (I currently don't dare go as fast as it was with freewheel on, you never know who does something stupid right in front of you on the way to work)

So I think freewheels can stay ;)

Hub gears are definitely on my stay list too, no maintenance and last forever.

Derailleurs yes, but there we go again I wouldn't like bar end of top tube shifters I know they're simple but that means taking my hand of the handlebars. Safety first on the way to work.

If I go like this I might end up talking myself into carbon and DI2 shifters for the commute :)

I guess my question is where do we all lay the line as cyclists?
For me...electrical parts (bar a light) and parts that do not last long (carbon only for racing, race components) are the limit (I guess) :)
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 06:21:28 pm »
JWestland: This is kind of a pointless discussion for anglophones to have, because we buy so few bikes, we have zero influence on the course of what bike manufacturers build, unless we luck upon some small maker (like Thorn) who happens to share our own predilections.

But I'll offer a couple of observations all the same.

Shimano's full auto Di2 Smover/Cyber Nexus full auto group, with electronic adaptive front and rear suspension, (of which the Dura-Ace Di2 is a crippled travesty), came in hub gear and derailleur flavours, and was announced by the boss of Koga-Miyata, a trendsetting prestige division of Gazelle, largest European bike makers, to be "the future of cycling". The very sophisticated Dutch, who cycle as naturally as breathing, bought it only in small numbers, and then not the full set either. They just didn't see the need. The Germans, who don't mind spending for luxuries with engineering provenance, bought a few. Last time I looked, Gazelle listed one top of the range comfort bike, the Saphir, with the automatic gears, and none of the other bits. If Gazelle can't make a go of it in The Netherlands... Forgeddaboutit.

Trek Benelux also tried. But they went wrong from the beginning, starting with a sporting mountain bike frame, and making everything short so that the rider crouched in a sporting position. I tried the saddle they chose for all of ten feet before chucking it off as an instrument of torture. Then I reengineered their bike (with their enthusiastic help -- Trek is a wonderful bike maker to deal with, a dream) to turn it into a comfortable upright lazy day bike. It turned out to be atrociously fast on my downhills, actually, because Shimano also made a marketing mistake with the adaptive suspension, making it compliant and soft but directionally stable at speed, but stiff to conserve energy at low speed, so that it rode like a rock at the sort of speeds senior citizens who buy auto boxes are likely to attain. I could tell before their bike was fully out of the box that the Trek would have zero market, because there was a clear confusion or lack of communication between their technical and marketing departments.

Trek tried again, in the States, with a three-speed automatic, also from Shimano, on a crank-forward, feet flat on the ground, shopper and pavement bike. It came in a nice lime green. Maybe it was called the Lime. Maybe someone knows how it sold, but I thought that was better aimed at the market for automatics than my Cyber Nexus. (Don't get me wrong. I loved my Cyber Nexus Trek once I fixed it up, but I loved it as a technofreak; as a sometime boy genius of advertising and marketing, I found the whole concept strangely confused for a first class marketing company like Trek.)

There is in addition the NuVinci CVT stepless gearbox which for practical purposes is as good as an automatic, and with fewer bits than can go wrong. It is offered by some upmarket German semi-custom bike makers like Utopia at the same price as an 8-speed Alfine setup. The NuVinci has a small but growing market segment. Unlike the Rohloff (which was designed as a mud plugging mountain bikers' gearbox), the NuVinci doesn't have any sporting pretensions. It suffers a weight penalty, so don't expect to see it on too many Thorns.

So, what we see is misdirected effort (in my opinion) across the band of automatic gearboxes for bikes.

Again, in my opinion, and after riding the full auto Cyber Nexus for a couple of years as my daily bike, that was by far the most efficient bike I ever owned, including the Rohloff-equipped Utopia Kranich that is my present daily bike. It is ludicrous for roadies to believe they change more optimally than the electronics can. I think that a full auto racing bike would be worth a few fractions of a second at every gear change, and the gubbins wouldn't have to be stupid-light to make that add up to a victory over any appreciable distance, say a stage in the Tour de France. On something as long as the PBP, it could add up to minutes, rather than seconds, or to finishing rather than wiping yourself halfway.

Now you'll have to excuse me as I've remembered the other Paris-Brest, the choux pastry filled with chocolate flavoured cream invented in 1891 to celebrate the PBP...

Andre Jute

Danneaux

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 07:18:15 pm »
Quote
It is ludicrous for roadies to believe they change more optimally than the electronics can.
Probably so; much the same debate raged in the automotive world after introduction of various automatically-shifted manual gearboxes by Ferrari, Porsche, Audi/Lamborghini and such. Further development and repeated testing have proved the new generation of high-end automatic transmissions can equal or outdo the performance of a manually-shifted gearbox, but...

The new auto-gearboxes lack Soul. User involvement. Are arguably less fun and satisfying to the Driving Experience for many. Where's my heel-and-toe downshifting? The joy of matching revs and double-clutching accompanied by the sharp bark of the exhaust? Choosing just the "right" gear for a given corner -- or getting it wrong and cursing the bog?

In the bicycle world...
One of the great joys of derailleur riding for me is the user-involvement/fun factor, and is one reason why I frequently reach down and turn the D-ring on my indexed shifters to the "Friction" setting. For me, this is a major part of my enjoyment of cycling. At the other end of the spectrum, I like riding Fixed as well, 'cos I am even more involved in the process. It sucks for hills and headwinds, however, and I reluctantly concluded there would no longer be a Danneux if I continued to ride Fixed in traffic. This, from a guy who as a young adult regularly side-drafted city buses to cut down on commute times. Age does sometimes bring with it a modicum of good sense.

It is just more viscerally satisfying for me to be more directly involved in the process of locomotion. I prefer and own a car with a manual transmission, for that very reason.

Of course, if someone gave me a Rohloff bike, Id be off on it in a blink. Purely for research purposes, of course.

Best,

Dan. "It's about fun, too!"
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 07:28:58 pm by Danneaux »

JWestland

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Re: Toyota/Parlee Cycles pair on thought-shifted bicycle
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 10:55:34 am »
The very sophisticated Dutch, who cycle as naturally as breathing, bought it only in small numbers, and then not the full set either. They just didn't see the need. The Germans, who don't mind spending for luxuries with engineering provenance, bought a few. Last time I looked, Gazelle listed one top of the range comfort bike, the Saphir, with the automatic gears, and none of the other bits. If Gazelle can't make a go of it in The Netherlands... Forgeddaboutit.

I am Dutch, did you just call me sophisticated by proxy? ;)

Here's a little detour on Dutch bike culture, as seen by me:

The Dutch in general tend not too like too much technology on our bikes as all the extra bits can break...even gears are kinda optional as the place is mostly flat and you won't race on the way to work, first there's no need with the distances (short) and second having the get into padded shorts, sweating and all that...we just get on our bikes and "bike walk" to work on our work clothes.

Most Dutch commuting bikes are "rust buckets" and the Dutch student bike pool is basically the bike equivalent of survival of the strongest!
The fact I regularly see old single speed/hub geared bikes from the handmade steel days still going strong whenever I am back in The Netherlands does prove the KISS principle ;)

There is also a strong second hand market at cycle shops. So if you sell a good bike to a customer that stays in shape, it will return to your shop as some point for a trade in. Dutch cyclists expect deals like that too, if you buy a Batavus/Gazelle etc you get a discount for trading in an old one. However, with a crap bike or a bike with parts that won't last this system of trade doesn't work. I think the lack of second hand market in the UK might drive sales too of bikes that are of poor quality.

Never spotted a Thorn over there but no doubt as long as somebody is willing to grease the derailleurs/oil the hub gears and keep it out of the rain when not in use our Thorns will still be going decades later :)

I noticed that coming here I've gone even more low tech, as the Koga Miyata bikes often have disc brakes, suspension forks etc and I've changed to na keep it simple, just give me drop bars and steel please. I've been here too long...I actually now maintain my bikes instead of cycling them into the ground and even the fixed culture has rubbed off on me :)

But no matter what culture you are in, automatic gears take away a sense of involvement and control, be it a car or a bike.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)