Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Far-Oeuf on August 10, 2014, 04:01:24 pm
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Hi,
I'm replacing my slightly-too-big Surly LHT, after about 8 years of riding (~20,000km touring). I'm a reasonably light-weight tourer, with the heaviest load being around 15kg (laptop/DSLR) but usually half that. However, the LHT does feel pretty safe when I do a little off-road; generally tracks that link tarmac and ridden carefully/slowly.
The Audax seems like the right bike/frame, however I'm swithering because of the weight warnings which make it sound a little fragile. What actually happens when you exceed the weight limit, or go along a rough path? Does the bike buckle or something?
Because frame weight is such a marginal part of overall bike (+ luggage + rider) weight, I am thinking a CT frame with lighter wheels (than standard) is going to feel pretty much the same as an Audax; at the end of a 200km day?
cheers,
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to be honest i would not be one bit worried about oadin up my ortlieb rear panniers and riding over some rough ish ground even with 23mm slicks, the thorn is over built i reckon.
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to be honest i would not be one bit worried about oadin up my ortlieb rear panniers and riding over some rough ish ground even with 23mm slicks, the thorn is over built i reckon.
the Audax, or Thorn bikes in general?
cheers,
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the thorn range i reckon my sherpa was built like a tank..
honestly i seriousy doubt you would have any problems with the audax.but the club tour will take wider tyres 32mm if you think that will suit you better,but audax will climb better.
the sherpa was overkill for me although i got to love it,but now i'm on the audax and going as light as i can it suits me much better.
rear panniers and small barbag thats it oh except for heavy tent on top of rear rack.and i'm 2 stone overweight. ::)
jags.
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I'm not trying to be picky, but interested why you think the Audax would climb better. With the same components would there be any difference between the Audax and CT? Or do you mean that as standard bikes the Audax is geared more for climbing?
cheers,
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tighter angles the club tour is longer wheel base so more relaxed.i head its a lovely ride also,if your anywhere near sjs cycles give them a test run to be sure to be sure. ;)
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Welcome to the forum Mr Egg
The main structural difference between a Club Tour and Mk3 Audax is the frame tube wall thickness, they also vary on brake options and max tyre size.
The thinner tube walls on the Mk3 mean it is less stiff and will need less payload to make it flex and then possibly shimmy, wobble or misbehave, particularly on a fast descent. This flexibility and greater compliance (ie less stiffness) is also what makes it relatively more comfortable a the end of a long day than the stiffer CT. Surly frames have a reputation ( I haven't ridden one) for being stiff to the point of harshness. If you like a stiff bike the CT is definitely the one to have.
I would say that the Mk3 is at least as strong as the average cyclo cross bike, but personally I find the handling suboptimal off road. What seemed technically hard to ride on the Mk3 was much easier to negotiate on the Raven Sport Tour. But I don't think it would break if you keep with a steel fork!
The CT is more versatile but stiffer and heavier.
You pays your money...
Ian
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I've just ridden the LHT down to Istanbul, and did 100-150km every single day of July (total 3,600km). That's the ball-park I'm in, long days over sometimes rough (Central Europe) roads. At that distance the odd kg makes not much difference, it's more about comfort.
When I push hard on the (LHT) pedals I can make the chainring/chain touch the front mech (chain on the middle ring), which I assume is the square-taper BB flexing. I've never been concious (or smart enough?) to know if the frame flexes. I've also done 9/10 hour days on the LHT and not felt bad at all, so I guess 'stiffness' isn't a problem for me.
I've only ever used 28mm on the LHT, and don't see any reason I'd change that. I do like the idea of a rear disc brake though, on the CT, which is possibly the thing that will sway the decision.
The idea of a single/versatile bike appeals, and with a lighter set of wheels the CT might actually be the one. I am very interesting in doing the http://www.transcontinentalrace.com/ next year, and would love to do it with an 'inappropriate' bike (most/all are on carbon or aluminium).
thanks
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btw, I'm visiting Thorn on Wednesday.
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best of luck let us know if you bought a bike. ;)
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I have a Sherpa myself in addition to a much older 700c tourer (Claude butler) and a 700c audax (ribble) which probably slightly lighter than the thorn and doesn't have a pannier rack
I have two sets of wheels, one is a pair of rigida chrina on deore hubs, the other is a pair of Prolite bracciano ( basically racing wheels) cheap, very light but not so strong
I move these back and forth between the two bikes and the wheels make more difference to the speed than the bike they are on. I do find that the Claude butler being just that bit beefier handles much better off road though.
If i were to reduce my three bikes to one i would go with the club tour and two sets of wheels as you suggest, a very versatile setup.
The Sherpa does make me smile when booming down tow paths or winching up forestry tracks with full expedition touring load though.
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"and the wheels make more difference to the speed than the bike they are on."
I think this is the answer I'm looking for. Certainly on motorbikes, the wheels make the most difference (relative). And I was thinking this is really what people mean when they say one bicycle is 'faster' than another bicycle; when the frames are more or less comparable.
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at the end of the day its down to the pilot. ;D ;D i also have 2 sets of wheels mavic 319 with 32mm tyres deore hubs good wheels but the ones i have now a custom built nothing special mavic sups on 105 hubs 36 spokes and vittoria racing slicks much lighter and faster than the other set.
yeah wheels make a hugh difference in speed thats a fact.
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I think the all up weight would make a difference if racing up the Stelvio as you're lifting it a bloody long way ;D
That's one a serious race and not a sporting tour by the looks of it. Jags would say you're a header who'd eat grass ;)
Take a look at this for inappropriateness: http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/ Igor, the man who did a 72 hour Paris Brest Paris, in Crocs!
You'll have my undying admiration if you can be remotely competitive on inappropriate gear given that Carbon/Ultegra worked for Mike Hall round the entire planet and this is a "sprint" event with climbing :o
I'd say a lightweight component Mk3 with 9 speed downtube shifters might just do it for a workable weight/reliability/inappropriateness mix
Go for it and keep us updated.
PS if you're in bed already you've got no chance :P
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"PS if you're in bed already you've got no chance"
ha ha :)
I can't really afford multiple bikes, and I don't want them either. A steel frame is pretty essential as I'll need to put in some serious mileage over the next 12 months, and I need a bike that will take that and then the race (and then some more after). Inevitably all up weight will be heavier than the proper racers, but I'll just have to have a stronger engine. I'd be pretty annoyed to splash out on a carbon frame only to damage it in training.
I've already spoken with Thorn about my 'must have' options for whatever bike I go for, which are drop-bars and d/t shifters. But the next months will be a new learning curve, a step up from fast touring to racing.
thanks for all the comments.
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btw, I've been looking through all the racers bikes, and the guy (currently) out in front seems to be on a steel bike (a Jaegher Interceptor). there is hope :)
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I don't think steel is part of the inappropriateness mix, especially if you're buying your own kit ;)
I think your most practical/competitive option would be the smallest Mk3 frame you fit with the 853 fork, proper wheels (36 rear 32 front spokes), Son delux hub and B&M led lights, 9 speed mix n match transmission with Dura Ace downtube shifters.
Happy shopping
Ian
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hmm... on balance my reasons for leaning towards the Club Tour are :
1. I'm not (ever going to be) a pro-racer, of ultra distance events. Therefore I want a multi-purpose bike, while accepting that it might technically be a little slower/heavier than a purpose built racer. Next years' London-Istanbul race is a one-off, and if it's not then I can consider investing in a specific race bike if I really get the taste for it.
2. I expect to put in around 15,000km (at least) of all-weather training (away from home) for the London-Istanbul race. While I am happy to build a front wheel in the frame, in a hotel room, I'm not going to try that for a rear. Having a rear disc brake effectively rules out rear-wheel wear, which will be cheaper and less hassle over the next year or so. Picking up good new rear wheels is one of the annoying things about always riding away from home, for me.
3. The small clearance between 28mm tyres (my preferred choice) and the mudguards, on the Audax, are less desirable for my riding. Most adventure racers don't use mudguards, but I will and this also affects point 1.
4. Not that I care much, but the CT (full bike) weighs about a 750ml water bottle more than the Audax. I don't think, over this sort of race distance, 750g really makes that much difference to my own first attempt at the race; given the total weight (rider+bike+kit+water) may be in the region of 100kg.
the big spanner in the works is that Thorn (visited yesterday) only have the red-white-blue CT, and I think it's pretty ugly. Now, the colour clearly makes no difference to the performance of the bike (as a tourer, or race entrant), but the solid colours of the Audax bikes are very nice. It somehow feels wrong to spend so much money on something you don't like the look of, despite all other aspects being excellent. I'm working on this minor bout of vanity at the moment... :)
cheers
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Thorn will get the frames sprayed to your exacting colour requirements if you give them money though ;)
I rather like the red/blue combo... but I think I'd prefer it in solid red or solid blue if I had the choice!
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even if I was prepared to pay for a new bike to be resprayed (and I'm not :) ), it adds a couple of months to the whole process. I just need to get over myself really, much cheaper :)
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I have the Club Tour.
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8441.0
It is solid very comfortable with 32mm tyres and multi purpose. Lots of clearance with 28mm.
Although I don't have the Thorn Audax I have a Bob Jackson Audax custom.
My CT has rear disc and Schmidt hub at the front. It is heavier than my Audax and does feel it on the hills round here but I just winch my way up.
The Audax is much more agile (28mm tyres).
I know what you mean about the colour but why not get a respray when you return because chances are it will need one after all the training and then the race!
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I'm not trying to be picky, but interested why you think the Audax would climb better. With the same components would there be any difference between the Audax and CT? Or do you mean that as standard bikes the Audax is geared more for climbing?
cheers,
Hi,
If you were not trying to be picky you would already own a Thorn Audax or a Club Tour.
Colour is a personal choice (I agree that the blue/red are not great) but for goodness sake you own a Surly?????
Audax will climb better-even a picky person like yourself should know that a lighter bike climbs more easily????
John
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picky-ness is not a lot to do with not already owning a Thorn, a complete LHT is £600 less and mine has done 20k km without any trouble. it wasn't about being picky, it was a cost decision.
your further assumptions about me being a person that is ignorant of the effects of the weight of a bike is wide of the mark. a carbon race bike is lighter than a CT, but I am pretty sure it won't climb better after 150 miles in the saddle. Ultra-distance performance (which is what I've been talking about) isn't simply about weight; reliability and comfort come before weight.
my original question was around whether an Audax or CT would be much different over 15 hours per day (every day for a week). Now I know that there's only 750g of weight difference (a single bidon), I would challenge anyone to say that that much weight makes 'an incredible' difference to their climbing ability. 750g (less than 1% of all up weight) is sacrificed for a greater degree of comfort, which is well worth the price (I'd say) in an ultra-distance race.
cheers,
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Is that 750g frame weight? I'd be interested to know the frame weight of the new MK4, as the Audax is 2.3kg frame only + 1kg for the standard fork, which makes quite a heavy frame really when you compare it to other steel audax frames (let alone the 1.5kg of a titanium frame). Without knowing the exact details I would think you could make a lighter club tour build than the standard audax anyway. That plus the extra tyre clearance to me for long distance lightweight touring/racing means the CT makes more sense.
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750g was the difference between like-for-like builds of the CT4 and Audax3; so, effectively, frame weight. That's not an official figure, it was just a response to my question while at their shop. Certainly the bikes didn't feel that different in weight. But, both bikes are considerably lighter (3-4kg) than my (complete) LHT.
A carbon fork is out for me, so I'd go with the 853 fork whichever bike I went with. And with the weights so close, it really does come down to function. So disc brake, tyre clearance, comfort. I'd take DT shifters, so save a bit over STIs.
The reason I am interested in the weight is that (while on tour) I rode 100km to Ventoux on the day before last years TdF (with rear panniers ~18kg). I then rode up Ventoux along with the hordes, riding past many cyclists in full roadie kit on carbon/alu bikes. I'm not suggesting I 'raced' up, I was quite sedate and just ground my way up there, but it's not all about a light bike.
I doubt I'll ever be at the marginal end of cycle racing that I'll go faster if I chuck a full bidon into a hedge at the bottom of a climb. I just can't see that. Although it theoretically makes sense, I would imagine taking a straighter/stricter line up Ventoux would make far more of a difference (just note the road-weaving people do on climbs).
Just a note on the Transcontinental Race. The winner took 8 days (London-Istanbul, via Paris, Stelvio Pass, Montenegro), rode a very light steel bike. The causes of riders dropping out are/were mainly, GPS failure (Garmins), spokes, shifters (STIs) and rear mechs.
thanks for the comments so far, I've still not yet ordered the bike but I expect I'll order a CT at some point this week.
cheers
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Wow i cant imagine me doing 15 hours in the saddle ,respect ;)i still think the audax will be better but hey your the guy thats going to ride it so you certainly know best.
don't suppose you have any videos or blog of your adventures you come across as one hell of a rider. 8)
cheers and bet of luck with witchever bike you choose.
jags.
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(@honesty mainly), I thought about it more and I think I've come up with a way to articulate what I want. A CT4 with an Audax3 finishing kit (32h wheels, 28mm tyres, etc). Add in my DT shifters, three bottle cages, and a rear disc brake. My 'luggage' will be under 5kg for all my riding over the next 11 months.
That gets me as near as there's no difference an Audax3 for the race, but a bike that will tour loaded with minimal extra spend; after the race.
if any of you use Facebook, here's a short interview with the winner of this years' race : https://www.facebook.com/transconrace.
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just some thoughts that might be useful to someone else trying to decide..
wheelset on the Audax 3 is Mavic Open Sport rims, 32h Deore hub, 28 Panaracer Pasela tyre.
wheelset on the Club Tour 4 is Mavic A719 rims, 36h Deore hub (non-disc), 32 Schwalbe Marathon Supreme folding tyre.
quick calculation shows the (standard) CT4 wheelset to be around 500g more than the (standard) Audax 3 wheelset.
I have quotes for both bikes, and the wheels/tyres are the only real difference. The brakes are different, as I spec'd a rear disc and front v-brake, and the Audax only takes calipers. Finally the CT has (my spec) P45 mudguards, and the Audax P35.
In terms of complete bike weight, there doesn't appear to be that much between the two bikes. Maybe 1.5/2kg as standard (one spec'd for touring, the other for audax). And a fair amount of that could be shed from the CT by swapping out the wheels.
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@jags, just an average rider really. the race will definitely be a step up, but I've been doing a few taster torture sessions (10 hours plus, consecutive days, etc) and it's working out ok. I'm really hoping a well fitted bike will make a big difference.
I'm making a film of the process of the race (training, etc). I'm coming from the angle that I'm an experienced traveller/navigator who can cycle a bit, rather than a cycle racer who has to learn multi-country riding. Currently I'm siding with paper maps (I always travel with paper maps), I'll be getting my energy from local foods rather than carry a bag of gels/protein powder. That's my approach, blood sweat and tears will win the day over science :-)
It's going to be an exciting (for me at least) next 12 months. I'm hoping to have ordered and picked up the bike, from Thorn, by the third week of September. I'll ride around Bridgwater for a day to check all is ok, and then pedal straight off to Croatia to get a decent feel for this long distance malarky and the CT. Then the plan is to head from there over towards Barcelona to some speed training in the Pyrenees with a roadie friend.
I'll pop back here when I'm due to head off, with some online details for updates along the way.
cheers
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fantastic I've never come across anyone who done this kinda riding before, I'm just going to hunt utube to find a video on it bound to be something there.
how did you get into this crazy stuff ;D it even sound gruelling before a pedal stroke is turned.
anyway best of luck please post a few photos of yourself and bike beore you set off great to follow your adventure.
jags.
found thihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0It1rls1Qks i'm sure i posted it before now that i see it but anyway its epic stuff.
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part 2 class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fKTR0Kx0xI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8C0Xy_mz64
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K61RQfZcUk
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just some thoughts that might be useful to someone else trying to decide..
All really appreciated.
BTW which colour did you choose?? :D
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BTW which colour did you choose?? :D
joking aside, the Audax red, pink and blue are fantastic colours (in that order). I'd not take the pink, but it's really stunning.
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A bit late to this party perhaps as I think you've decided on the CT but thought I'd just say that I have previously owned a LHT which I sold as it was too long in the top tube (even after buying a smaller frame) and I currently own a thorn CT and a thorn Audax. The LHT was a bargain. Had pretty much the same kit as a thorn but cost me £600 second hand (in good nick). The CT was my favourite bike for a while but I became rather keen on 26" wheeled bikes and ran a Sherpa for a while. My son has that now and I am mostly on a RST. For faster riding, including a recent trip from Perth to Buckinghamshire I use the Audax. But before I did the trip to England I removed the drops and put some flat bars on it. That was a good set up and suited me well. Especially with some SJS bar ends. I recently weighed the CT, Audax and RST with pretty much the same kit. Brooks B17, rack guards all in place. Results were
Audax. 26 lbs
CT. 30 lbs
RST. 30.5 lbs.
Both the CT and the Audax have good wheel sets, can't remember all the detail but both with narrow rims (Ambrosio on the CT and mavic open sport or pro(?) on the audax). Perhaps only key difference was the tyres. Lighter on the audax (although 30mm) and heavier (marathons) on the CT though only 28mm. All these bikes have steel forks. I've been a fan of both bikes and even though I now mostly use the RST day to day, I'd be hard pressed to decide which to keep if I had to part with one.
Re colour I buy everything second hand so I have two bikes in red. Which is my least favourite colour. It still sounds better than your possible red and white mix though!
I liked the LHT but found that it only ever made steady progress. All my thorns feel livelier. Though if loaded up I'm not sure I'd feel the difference.
Best wishes for the trip/training/race.
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@jags, I mostly travel solo and I've done a couple of motorbike crossings of the Sahara. I think that's where I fell in with the idea of the battle between the weaker half and the stronger half of your character. I switched to cycling a couple of years ago (distance cycling). You know, you ride a few hours and you start feeling a bit tired, it's time for a rest any way, and there's a petrol station/bar/cafe you can sit for just half an hour or so. But that's just your weak half convincing your body to slow down. You try to train yourself to be aware of yourself trying to convince yourself to take the easy option, it's a bit recurisive (looping) :)
Long distance is about overcoming this, and putting your stronger half in control. Because you can ride a bit further, 10km at a time, even 1km at a time. You just have to keep going. 10 hours turns into 11, 11:45, 12:37, 12:59, and you can actually make it to 15 hours. It's the mental battle that's the appeal, the cycling itself brings the vistas and the glorious smells (pine forests, orange groves, fresh rain, etc) but it's overcoming the internal struggle that's the real challenge.
in all of this context, 750g of weight is nothing.
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A bit late to this party perhaps as I think you've decided on the CT but thought I'd just say that I have previously owned a LHT which I sold as it was too long in the top tube (even after buying a smaller frame) and I currently own a thorn CT and a thorn Audax.
I wonder if the LHT frame is really designed with flat bars in mind, or half in mind. Most riders I've met find them a little long, if using drop bars. An interesting thing about LHT's is that I did a Barcelona-Edinburgh ride 5 years ago and never met any but on the same trip 2 years ago I met 5 LHT's. They are becoming popular in Europe. I totally agree that the LHT feels steady and consistent, quite far from thrilling but always capable.
So your difference between Audax and CT was 1.8kg, that seems to be about what I'm finding; not that huge a difference given all up weight. My only knowledge of 'responsiveness' or 'feel' comes from motorbikes, where if you put a lightweight wheelset on the bike really feels better. Not that you go any faster as a result, but it feels livelier which therefore feels faster.
cheers
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i think i would be taking the easy option to be totally honest,i'm a total softie.
ah credit where credit is due you guys are a different breed life is the challange,wheres the next mountain where as me i'm looking for the nearest hotel with a nice soft bed and loads of hot coffee.
respect man and i still reckon the audax will be a better choice its a super comfi bike to ride all day.
look forward to the ride report hope you have a blast .
jags.
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respect man and i still reckon the audax will be a better choice its a super comfi bike to ride all day.
if the Audax had a disc brake I might well have gone for it. I'm self-funded, but if I get into December/January and the CT is causing me discomfort I do have the option of switching frames.
the guy at Thorn described the CT as "an Audax on steroids". I hope he's right :)
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aw there great bike to be honest.
i meant to ask before about cost,what do you reckon this race will set you back.
just curious.
jags.
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aw there great bike to be honest.
i meant to ask before about cost,what do you reckon this race will set you back.
just curious.
jags.
it would be an easy answer to say:
travel to the start (Edinburgh-London), plus overnight stay - £120
12 days on the road at £20/day - £240 (a generous guess)
Dover/Calais ferry (short notice, you want the first available) - £50
2 nights in Istanbul (booked at short notice) - £100
flight home from Istanbul (short notice) - £300
race entry fee - £180
total - £990 (+ any morale boosting hotels).
however.... It's difficult to pre-book things (cheaper), because you don't know when you'll finish the race. You could sleep on the beach when you get to Istanbul, but...really? Also, training for 6 months is going to involve a serious amount of food, and possible a transmission replacement. How much is that?
I expect there'll be a few blogs from racers on this event, which will be pretty interesting.
cheers
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not to expensive so for such an awesome adventure 8)
well just enjoy it no matter what happens,this will be some story to tell your grandkids .one day.
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Out of interest I weight my audax last night. Current build without mudguards, bagman, barbag mount - 10.3kg. With those things - 11.7kg. I could get sub 10kg rather easily by changing out the heavy brooks saddle for a lighter one and seat post for a carbon one, and getting rid of the interrupter brake levers. Any further weight reduction would probably need a change of groupset.
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interesting. I'll also be interested to get my CT on the scales, when I pick it up :)
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A bit late to this party perhaps as I think you've decided on the CT but thought I'd just say that I have previously owned a LHT which I sold as it was too long in the top tube (even after buying a smaller frame) and I currently own a thorn CT and a thorn Audax.
I wonder if the LHT frame is really designed with flat bars in mind, or half in mind. Most riders I've met find them a little long, if using drop bars.
According to my current understanding that's mathematically impossible. The length of the top tube is adjusted at the rear by moving the saddle fore and aft - it's at the front where you will feel stretched out. A shorter/higher stem will deal with this unless the reach is too long. The reach on a LHT (26" and 700c) is identical to a Club Tour and Sherpa - around 39.5 cm.
The reach is the distance from a point vertically above the BB to the head tube. According to the information on the Surly website it is around 39 cm (and cannot be lower without toe overlap). We've calculated the reach for the Thorn bikes on this forum.
If anyone would care to verify this I would be very grateful.
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just put down the deposit on a CT4 with Audax compents (effectively). 4 agonising weeks to wait...
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fair play to ya, don't forget the photos. ;)
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just put down the deposit on a CT4 with Audax compents (effectively). 4 agonising weeks to wait...
Nah, it's just the right wait to get the right bike. If you hurried the decision-making to be able to order before the summer when the waiting lists are shorter, you'd forever worry about making the right choice. Now you know because you gave it the time.
There may be different experiences out there, but I can say for a fact that I have never been happy with any bike I bought without due thought and analysis of how I would use it, and how often, and where. At least one bike that I bought on impulse wrecked my back so comprehensively, the physio bought a new BMW every year -- on me; for years now I've given him the finger every time I see him on the road.
On the other hand, I can say most emphatically that every time I've given the time, sometimes months, to make the right decision, and spent the time talking to people so that they gave me exactly the right bike, I have been very happy with the resulting bike. It took two years to arrive at my present bike, but it'll be buried with me, it's so right.
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you're absolutely right, of course. I had to chuck away my rear wheel when I got to Istanbul, it was worn out (10 spokes replaced on the way in) and I was trying to get under BA's 23kg limit. So I'm currently without a working bike. But I'm so desperate to get back in the saddle. Will be all the sweeter when I roll up to Portsmouth, or wherever, on my new CT, en route to somewhere far away.
cheers,
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@jags, I mostly travel solo and I've done a couple of motorbike crossings of the Sahara. I think that's where I fell in with the idea of the battle between the weaker half and the stronger half of your character. I switched to cycling a couple of years ago (distance cycling). You know, you ride a few hours and you start feeling a bit tired, it's time for a rest any way, and there's a petrol station/bar/cafe you can sit for just half an hour or so. But that's just your weak half convincing your body to slow down. You try to train yourself to be aware of yourself trying to convince yourself to take the easy option, it's a bit recurisive (looping) :)
Long distance is about overcoming this, and putting your stronger half in control. Because you can ride a bit further, 10km at a time, even 1km at a time. You just have to keep going. 10 hours turns into 11, 11:45, 12:37, 12:59, and you can actually make it to 15 hours. It's the mental battle that's the appeal, the cycling itself brings the vistas and the glorious smells (pine forests, orange groves, fresh rain, etc) but it's overcoming the internal struggle that's the real challenge.
in all of this context, 750g of weight is nothing.
Sounds to me like you only just avoided joining the Shaolin monks or the Parachute regiment. ;)
I think you have the right attitude for the race but make the most of it before your body breaks. And ride back afterwards to save the air fare :)
Happy days
Ian
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if anyone stumbles across this thread, and is looking to buy a CT/Audax (or any other), I'd suggest establishing what frame colours are available before you convince yourself you want a Thorn bike.
OK, so I turned out to be not that picky, and have taken what was in stock. But you tend to get the impression (from the brochure) that "All colours of MERVC 853 forks are available...," and such like, means that you have a colour choice. It didn't occur to me, before I made the 1000 mile round trip to the shop, that they simply wouldn't have some of the frame colours available. If colour is a deal-breaker, check before you spend cash on the travel.
cheers,
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Great to read all this! Keep posting!
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Looking at a mid-Sep delivery date (approx 4 weeks after deposit taken). A week of riding around and then straight into a century sportive, with a ferry booked the following day to Zeebrugge. Kind of essential it all fits and works as expected.
I've always used a B17 Standard (saddle), but have been curious about the narrower saddles. Nothing wrong with the B17, but unless you try something else you don't know what you're missing (or not!). Given the cost of Brooks saddles, it's a bit of a leap of faith I've not yet justified. I've finally found a plausable explanation of the purpose/fit of the B17, Team Pro and Swift saddles. It's plausable to me because of the different contact areas used in the various positions of upright/leant over/almost prone. I get the 'sit bones' measurement and it does make sense for the upright/touring position, where you do literally sit on the saddle, but what about fast-touring or long distance racing?
NOTE: this is just a 'plausable' explanation, I don't suggest it is actually true or what Brooks would admit to (they seem vague, probably for marketing reasons).
B17 suits bars above the saddle riding
Team Pro suits bars level or slightly below the saddle
Swift suits bars below the saddle
What I've taken this to mean, when looking at Thorn's equally loose definitions are : B17 = relaxed, Team Pro = sporty, Swift = racing. My Club Tour has been spec'd as 'fairly sporty' (you select this on the order form), so I've ordered a Team Pro saddle. I will have my existing B17 as a backup and a baseline, but it will be good to experiment with the Team Pro. I'll also try dropping the bars quite a bit, and see what effect that has on the feel of the Team Pro and see if I can find a point where it becomes uncomfortable.
cheers,
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As an OAP I now use a B17 and Flyer saddles which I find very comfortable for a relaxed position with riser handlebars.
I used to use a B17 narrow which suited me when I was younger and liked to bend lower with drop handlebars.
Worth considering for a racier position if you like the B17.
julk.
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Looking forward to hearing of your opinions on your new bike when it comes.
I used to have a Brooks B17 with titanium rails and found it very good but changed to a Team Pro when I bought my RST about three and a half years ago as like you I fancied trying something different. My bars (flat not drops) are about 1 inch below my saddle and it's the most comfortable saddle I've ever used, I tilt the nose very slightly upwards to prevent me sliding forwards on it. I've recently acquired a used RT which came with a standard Brooks Swift, I've found it to be not as comfortable as the Team Pro although that's maybe because it is moulded to the previous owners shape and not mine. I'm planning on getting an Audax next year so will keep it for that bike.
Regards, Neil.
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First part of the new bike turned up :)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3925/15124163571_139aceed73.jpg)
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..and the most important part makes its entrance!
I have a Conquest and it really is a delight to use. Plus, like you, I've copper rivets. :)
Look forward to your future posting!
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class.
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Class +1
Neil.
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New Brooks lovely!
I tried a black Pro and it needed more wearing in than a B17 so I'd try it before a 100 mile sportive myself.
You don't want to give yourself a sore a*rse after only 20 miles with another 80 to go!
I have also tried a Swift, both I had to sell on as I think my backside is a definite B17 shape.
Funny because I have a Team Pro from 35 years ago that was the best saddle I ever owned. It was soaked in Neatsfoot Oil for 24 hours before the shop would give it to me by an ex professional Wes Mason. It sure softened it up but now it is rock hard and shaped like my rear end.... ;D
Steve
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I tried a black Pro and it needed more wearing in than a B17 so I'd try it before a 100 mile sportive myself.
it will be character building :)
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I have a Team Pro from 35 years ago that was the best saddle I ever owned. It was soaked in Neatsfoot Oil for 24 hours before the shop would give it to me by an ex professional Wes Mason. It sure softened it up but now it is rock hard and shaped like my rear end.... ;D
My Brooks B73, also soaked in neatsfoot (the professional's treatment!), will be buried with me. But now I'm wondering if I can return it to Brooks to have copper rivets fitted. As Jags and Neil have noted above, that's very tasty bling.
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My Brooks B73, also soaked in neatsfoot (the professional's treatment!), will be buried with me. But now I'm wondering if I can return it to Brooks to have copper rivets fitted. As Jags and Neil have noted above, that's very tasty bling.
Brooks do have a repair service, and you can ask for a quote (supplying pictures) before sending it back.
cheers,
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Thanks, Far-Oeuf. That leads to the question of whether anyone knows whether the copper rivets the same size as the steel ones in the B73 (and other B66 derivatives).
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hmm.... http://far-oeuf.com/equipment/thorn-club-tour-mk4-first-impressions/ (http://far-oeuf.com/equipment/thorn-club-tour-mk4-first-impressions/)
on the plus side, the Brooks Team Pro feels fantastic! :-)
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wow such a list of complaints, my advice send it back end of story your never going to be happy with it. maybe buy john's (leftpoole) condor but only if it fits.
jags.
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the only real (returning the bike) problem is the saddle position. this can maybe be fixed by raising it some more, but there's the risk of reach to the pedals becoming too far. we'll see.
the forks, if they continue to exhibit 'the bounce', can be replaced. as can all the other non-Thorn components which I'm not that impressed by. however, that's all £££ on top of the bike cost.
I am quite amazed that a 10-speed system suffers from chain-rub. And that Dura Ace shifters are clunky, I'd just imagined something smoother. live and learn :)
EDIT: to be clear, the frame (minus forks, and all the non-Thorn bits) feels really good.
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im amazed that dura ace is not to your liking.i've been useing them since first they appeared on the market find them fantastic never miss a beat.
theres nothing worse that buying a new bike and you find fault with it from the start (not your fault) if theres a 114 day money back on this bike then get rid of it buy another bike.
im happy with my audax and was happy with the sherpa but i just bought the frameset no more, built them up with my choice of gear.
jags
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you use Dura Ace downtube shifters? maybe I'm just used to the smooth friction shifters, but they feel very clunky. way more clunky than STIs.
I don't want to return it, I'd prefer to fix it (within reasonable £££). My gut feel is that I will like the frame, live with some wierdness of the forks, and replace the rest. I can transplant a lot from the LHT, but I think I'll have a problem with 8-speed chain-rings fitting cranks that fit bottom brackets that have external-bearings. maybe not, I haven't looked into it.
What's brilliant is that I haven't thought about the colour scheme of the frame once :-)
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Goodness you are patient. I would talk to Thorn about the issues as it should be perfect out of the box.
My steerer was left uncut and I wouldn't accept a nick in the head tube. That in it self would annoy me enough to return the bike.
I would only ask for a replacement if i felt this was going to be the bike for me and you seem to have many doubts.
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yes 9 speed dura ace no problem what so ever,but give me sti any day of the week quicker and smoother shift.if you get your sety up as you want it the frame is excellent.
but look with all those complaints i would defo send it back new bike should be perfect out of the box.
send it back tomorrow.
jags.
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I'm really sorry that your initial impressions are not what you'd hoped for. I would be very tempted to give Thorn a ring and discuss your feelings with them, they pride themselves on their after-sales service and the money back guaranty is built into the cost of the bike so don't be afraid to use it if you're not 100% happy it.
Neil.
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@Swislon, I found your thread with your CT4. Interesting to compare the bar position with mine. With the brakes in the most usable position, the ends of the bars come back past the head-tube. If I had bar-end shifters, then I'd be banging my knees into them while riding. The solution is to rotate the bars, but that will put the brake levers/hoods into an unusable position (necessitating tape removal and resetting the lever position). It would be prudent to actually replace the rattly brake levers at this point too, which would mean new brake cables as well. An annoyingly simple 'fix', for about £50 and an hour or so of time.
How do you find the fork, on not-quite-smooth downhills? I might swap out the front tyre (possibly just put the front wheel from my LHT in) and go back and test riding down the hill where I experienced the wierd bouncing feeling.
@jags, I think the 9-speed Dura Ace downtube shifters have a friction mode, whereas the 10-speed ones don't. I agree that STIs are better than downtube index shifting, but I don't think they are better than downtube friction shifting; for smoothness.
cheers,
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@Neil, thanks. Yes, I've left a message for them. It's just disappointment, after years of thinking about getting a 'proper' bike from a 'proper' shop. My expectations were high.
Anyhow... £40 will get me new levers, bar tape and brake cables. That will let me set up the bars and levers properly. I'll also flip the stem around, and buy a load of spacers and fine tune the bar height.
I think I'll be able to shift (pun intended!) over the 8-speed chainrings/cassette/chain/front-rear-mechs from the LHT to the CT. That then allows me to take the friction shifters from the LHT too. I don't need/want close ratio gears, it wasn't an 'upgrade' I am too interested in.
I can ignore (or touch up) the chip in the frame, it's a bike to be used and it'll pick up chips on the road. Ditto the scratch on the stem. I just need to understand this bouncing feeling from the forks/wheel/my-imagination.
If I commence surgery on the bars then I think that means I'm keeping it :-)
cheers
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Hello
As a long term Thorn enthusiast I am mystified! I think you have a couple of small things incorrect.
I also think after reading your Blog, that you have gone a little overboard with criticism. After all, you chose the components?
Try riding and loving, rather than moaning!
Have fun.
John
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john your an awful man ;D ;D ;D
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My bars and brake levers are the same as yours. Even with bar end shifters I don't bang my knees either in the saddle or standing on the pedals. I also don't have rattly levers.
I have moved the bars upwards and also back down again. I use 9 speed bar end shifters and love the friction mode.
I have always found the fork planted on all roads (a bit too planted actually as I find the the bike a little sluggish). I use 32mm Grand Bois Tyres at about 80 psi. We have some awful roads round here and a long fast downhill that is really rough. The bike instills plenty of confidence and I can quite easily take both hands off the bars.
I am coming to this bike from a lighter steel audax bike which is much more lively. Coming from a LHT would probably give my senses a different feeling.
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john your an awful man ;D ;D ;D
Anto
I just read it and I find it very interesting that someone can moan about something so much. After all he chose the components!
John
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Anto
I just read it and I find it very interesting that someone can moan about something so much. After all he chose the components!
John
well, I myself am mystified at the way the components were put together (you can't choose all the components, that would be a very expensive bike!). If the bars are in the correct-ish position, the brake levers and hoods are unusable. I removed the bar-tape, and I find that the brake cable is fully taped to the bar, as is the brake lever. I had spec'd gel inserts on the bar tops, as I don't use gloves, and I find that they're also fully taped in with electrical tape (destroyed if the levers are to be moved, a waste of £6 inserts).
what I was quite clear about was that these were my first impressions. So much is made of Thorn's expertise in measuring, and bikes arriving in a 'fits like a glove' state. Mine didn't arrive like that, quite far from it. I find that I have to remove the bar-tape, throw away paid for inserts, remove a whole bunch of tape, and then put on new bar tape. Not what I was expecting, regardless of how easy it is to do. It's Thorn themselves that make such a big deal about their own expertise, and if you create such high expectations it's inveitable that sometimes you fail.
the bike was only ridable with care, it isn't a case that I could just go ride and stop complaining.
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@Swislon, thanks.
I've been around to the Bike Station (second hand bike parts) and picked up some shallow bars and an oversize stem. I figured that as I was going to have to remove the bar tape to reposition the levers, I might as well change the bars now. Changing the bars meant an oversize stem too. Obviously much safer to have bars and brake levers in the right position, and much, much better riding.
Seat post has gone up about 25mm, bars have come down probably about 10mm. next job is to try and stop the lever rattle.
progress at the front end:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5589/15192956646_8bd7466625.jpg)
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good stuff once you get sorted you will enjoy your bike.
its just a pity sjs made a complete balls of putting it together.
jags.
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I much prefer shallow drop over anatomic drop bars, both to look at and to ride with. Also my preference is a angled stem with less spacers on the head tube than a flat stem with lots of spacers. Aesthetically I think it looks better. Plus an angled stem is a nice place for a garmin to sit and look at!
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well, I myself am mystified at the way the components were put together (you can't choose all the components, that would be a very expensive bike!). If the bars are in the correct-ish position, the brake levers and hoods are unusable. I removed the bar-tape, and I find that the brake cable is fully taped to the bar, as is the brake lever. I had spec'd gel inserts on the bar tops, as I don't use gloves, and I find that they're also fully taped in with electrical tape (destroyed if the levers are to be moved, a waste of £6 inserts).
what I was quite clear about was that these were my first impressions. So much is made of Thorn's expertise in measuring, and bikes arriving in a 'fits like a glove' state. Mine didn't arrive like that, quite far from it. I find that I have to remove the bar-tape, throw away paid for inserts, remove a whole bunch of tape, and then put on new bar tape. Not what I was expecting, regardless of how easy it is to do. It's Thorn themselves that make such a big deal about their own expertise, and if you create such high expectations it's inveitable that sometimes you fail.
the bike was only ridable with care, it isn't a case that I could just go ride and stop complaining.
From the photo in your blog, the bars and brake levers look correctly set up, (not the bars I would choose though).
Using electrical tape to secure the cables and gel pads under the bar tape is standard practice, not sure what you mean when you say they are destroyed when removed?
Rattling levers sounds a bit irritating, I have these levers on my Sherpa and they don't rattle, maybe you got some duds or maybe they will settle down with use.
The only real grounds for complaint I can see is if the fork has indeed been cut down pre delivery, and also the paint chip.
If you are happy to live with the paint chip, why not return the forks and swap them for the standard Club Tour fork and use the money you save in doing so to address the other component choice issues.
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I usually put gel inserts under the bar tape, but I've never taped them to the bars first. to be honest, it never occured to me, as the bar-tape holds them in place just fine. it wasn't possible to remove the electrical tape without destroying the inserts, unfortunately they were stuck fast.
Anytime I set off, from the lights for example, my knee would bang the bar end. Maybe I have long thighs or huge knees, I dunno, but I was measured at the Thorn shop. Rotating the bars to avoid this, meant the hoods were pointing to the sky. Anyway, sorted now with different bars and stem.
cheers
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Far-ouef: may I ask how tall you are, inside leg and size of bike? Getting the Brooks back far enough is a common problem - you may want a layback seat post.
I sympathised with your feelings on first seeing the bike but it looks like you're working through them fast.
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To stop the lever rattle try increasing the resting cable tension by screwing both of the front v brake spring adjuster screws in a little. On the BB7 at the rear try pulling a mm or two of cable through the pinch bolt. Remember both of these brakes were originally designed for mtb levers with integral cable adjusters so setting them up to taste on levers without such requires a little more finesse. They will also need bedding in of friction components and cables and feel will improve. (A Deore V brake will never wear out).
Dura Ace shifting is "positive". You can still buy 9speed levers with friction setting and vary the friction. Buttery smooth :-* I have some but prefer to use the indexing most of the time. 10 speed is too finnicky to friction shift in general use, hence friction deletion.
As for the fork, have you tried experimenting with your front tyre pressure as there may be some sort of harmonic relationship. I'd start at about 65 psi.
Those original bars look ergonomically awful for anyone but a gorilla with small hands. But remember you have more knee room on the LHT because it is too long and you've gotten used to it ???
I have to ask though, why on earth didn't you buy a frame and fork and build it up? I'm almost agreeing with John :o ;) It always struck me that the a la carte option was the expensive choice for those that want someone else to sweat the technical ingredients.
I hope you get where you want to be in the end.
Ian
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@horizon, about 5 11, and it's the 58S frame. increasing the seat height feels like it's ironed the problem out.
@triasthete, the brake cables themselves are fine, it's the little QR stopper thing that rattles, and only when I apply the brakes (both sides). When at rest the QR stopper is in contact with the hood, so silent. It is wierd, as the other set of the same levers I have on the LHT are fine. I was thinking of some clear glue or trying to wedge a tiny piece of plastic into there.
I'll try with the tyre pressure, good suggestion; they came at 75PSI. Yes, I've read that friction shifting on 10-speed is finnicky. At the moment indexed shifting works, and doesn't stop me riding, so I'm just going to live with it. I really was surprised how 'positive' the shifting feels though.
Why not a frame only? Well, in retrospect I should have. If the opinion (eg John's) is 'stop talking about it and get out and ride it', well I disagree. Logically that implies that people shouldn't expect a Thorn bike to fit, out of the box. And that then implies that Thorn's whole measuring requirement is just a rouse to make people feel like they're getting something more than just an off-the-peg bike. I don't believe this is what Thorn is about, I still believe they are about getting you a great fit, on top of a great bike.
The Thorn 'product' (so far as complete bikes is concerned) is bike + measurement = fitted bike. I've been riding a too-large bike for years, finally investing in a bike that really fits is a large part of why I went for the complete bike. It cost me £150 in travel and two days, to visit Bridgwater to be measured. And for what? It was obvious the frame size would be a 58S, but bar height, saddle position, etc, etc. Visiting them was part curiousity, but part getting exactly the right measurements instead of messing it up myself.
If I'd been able to order a 58S off-the-peg I would have expected to have to shuffle things around until I felt 'right'. But Thorn sell fitted bikes, and they sell that expectation too; and you can't order without supplying the measurements. Something went wrong with the setup on my bike, which meant that physically things were in the wrong place, and it felt awful. Saying, 'just ride it anyway,' doesn't help because anyone else thinking of buying a fitted bike could take the impression that the resulting bike might or might not fit you. Something went wrong with my particular bike build, and I think it's right to be annoyed about it as that is part of what I've paid for. Though I don't think it's typical of the Thorn service, if it was I wouldn't be annoyed about it.
I wrapped the replacement bars in fresh bar tape last night, so me and the bike bonded a little :)
cheers,
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well, I myself am mystified at the way the components were put together (you can't choose all the components, that would be a very expensive bike!). If the bars are in the correct-ish position, the brake levers and hoods are unusable. I removed the bar-tape, and I find that the brake cable is fully taped to the bar, as is the brake lever. I had spec'd gel inserts on the bar tops, as I don't use gloves, and I find that they're also fully taped in with electrical tape (destroyed if the levers are to be moved, a waste of £6 inserts).
what I was quite clear about was that these were my first impressions. So much is made of Thorn's expertise in measuring, and bikes arriving in a 'fits like a glove' state. Mine didn't arrive like that, quite far from it. I find that I have to remove the bar-tape, throw away paid for inserts, remove a whole bunch of tape, and then put on new bar tape. Not what I was expecting, regardless of how easy it is to do. It's Thorn themselves that make such a big deal about their own expertise, and if you create such high expectations it's inveitable that sometimes you fail.
the bike was only ridable with care, it isn't a case that I could just go ride and stop complaining.
Hello,
I build my own bikes from frameset up.
I have only ever once purchased a complete bike built to 'my' detailed measurement and requested components. It was a Mk 3 Audax. It arrived in the big box. I opened the box, turned the bars, fitted my own pedals and went for a day ride! No messing, no adjustments, nothing!
You should have complained, discussed or whatever with St John St Cycles, as after all they built it and do not want an unhappy customer. I feel that the Blog you have written is not really a true description but a long rant, moan, whinge or somesuch. I think that the bike you have will be a great bike. I would, if I were you, rewrite the Blog now that you have calmed down?
John
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I usually put gel inserts under the bar tape, but I've never taped them to the bars first. to be honest, it never occured to me, as the bar-tape holds them in place just fine. it wasn't possible to remove the electrical tape without destroying the inserts, unfortunately they were stuck fast.
Anytime I set off, from the lights for example, my knee would bang the bar end. Maybe I have long thighs or huge knees, I dunno, but I was measured at the Thorn shop. Rotating the bars to avoid this, meant the hoods were pointing to the sky. Anyway, sorted now with different bars and stem.
cheers
Hello again,
You could have slit the tape at the edge of the Gel and removed without any damage.
I re state-you chose the bars, stem everything!
John
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Why not a frame only? Well, in retrospect I should have. If the opinion (eg John's) is 'stop talking about it and get out and ride it', well I disagree. Logically that implies that people shouldn't expect a Thorn bike to fit, out of the box.
Hello!!!
I implied that you should stop moaning and ride the bike. If the bike has incorrect bars, stem, tape, Gel etc it is your fault not reporting it. St John St Cycles would have arranged a change.
I repeat, stop complaining. If you know anything about bikes and fitting then you should have told the seller what you wanted. The seller gave you what you showed them you wanted by how you were measured and by how you explained the way rode.
The steerer cut off is for the reason that the seller has had people cut them off too short and then 'complain' (oops!) that the steerer was too short. I suggest yet again that you stop messing about and get on to the seller. I should imagine the seller would welcome the bike back. They could then sell it to someone who actually wants it. Might you have purchased the bike and now do not really want it? Sounds like it from what I am reading.
John
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Hello
By the way-I have brake levers on my Club Tour which 'rattle'. It is irritating but it is Shimano you should complain to. I am certain 'they would welcome' your complaint?
John
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john your an awful man ;D ;D ;D
Anto,
I speak as I find, after reading this persons 'Blog' I discover that most of what he is complaing about is because he likes complaining! He shows a picture of his bar tape which is slightly over centre-big deal-peel it back.
He chose the gearing setup. I mean for heavens sake who rides with down tube levers? He does apparently. A bit odd really.
He says the frame is not the correct size-he chose it- and I say, send it back.
Setup of a bike is personal, take a look at mine!
Written on the Blog
1. the MERVC fork being too springy
2. saddle position not being comfortable
component changes to improve things (£££):
1. replace the drop-bars
2. replace the brake levers
3. replace the shifters
4. replace the bar-tape
5. probably change the whole chain-set to 8-speed
6. replace the Deore v-brake (when it wears out) with an LX or higher
However, the fundamental frame questions (fork and saddle position) are not really solvable.
Unfortunately, for now, the (slightly too big for me) Long Haul Trucker is a better riding bike than the Club Tour. I’ll take the CT out tomorrow for 80km or so and see how things go.
Obviously the purchaser is not very good at choosing components, nor judging by the Surly being incorrect size, is he good at choosing the correct size?
I rest my case. Enjoy your day.
John
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Err John, they are Tektro levers, he'll get told off if he does that. "Speaking as you find": are you from Yorkshire? ;D I love your contributions!
Doug bear in mind also that they are super cheap levers and very functional so cut them some slack. I suspect the tooling will wear as time goes on and more recent ones will be sloppier.
This is a positive transmission, mind you it sounds more like a Rohloff ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ9fGZOcj_A
Happy pedalling all.
Ian
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Err John, they are Tektro levers, he'll get told off if he does that. "Speaking as you find": are you from Yorkshire? ;D I love your contributions!
Doug bear in mind also that they are super cheap levers and very functional so cut them some slack. I suspect the tooling will wear as time goes on and more recent ones will be sloppier.
This is a positive transmission, mind you it sounds more like a Rohloff ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ9fGZOcj_A
Happy pedalling all.
Ian
Ian,
Thank you for the comment regarding my contributions.
I feel now that I am retired and well experienced in bikes, cycling and tour camping that I just say as it comes!
Too old to 'swither' like the originating poster?
John
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Friends, as they say, are the most energy efficient form of entertainment.
T'would we boring if we all agreed all the time.
Yours in the spirit of robust debate
Ian
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John no harm complaining, i think the op just wants things to be perfect and who can blame him you and me both are bike fanatics we have to have things spot on.when i bought the hilleberg akto after getting loads of thumbs up about it ::) when i first pitched it in my back garden (i had a garden then) man i hated the fecking thing totally useless bit of kit and the money i paid for it, but i persevered with it hoping i'd get used to it but no when i sold all my gear i included tent as well.so I'd say to the op get the bike exactly the way you want it no matter if you have to change things its gonna be worth it in the end.
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Ah, Father Anto, that would be an ecumenical matter. Bikes! BIKES!! Nuns! BIKES!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptd_h0dF7NE
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god bless you ian. ;D
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John no harm complaining, i think the op just wants things to be perfect and who can blame him you and me both are bike fanatics we have to have things spot on.when i bought the hilleberg akto after getting loads of thumbs up about it ::) when i first pitched it in my back garden (i had a garden then) man i hated the fecking thing totally useless bit of kit and the money i paid for it, but i persevered with it hoping i'd get used to it but no when i sold all my gear i included tent as well.so I'd say to the op get the bike exactly the way you want it no matter if you have to change things its gonna be worth it in the end.
Anto,
I think from what I read of his rant on his Blog, that he has the wrong size frame?
Send it back or stop moaning!
All great to laugh about but I guess the OP made an error and wishes he had not bought the Thorn. It is really up to him, but to openly complain without recourse to Thorn is a little silly?
John
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ah i don't mind slagging them off every now and again keeps them on their toes, but your right me thinks wrong size frame wonder if he went with the size of his surley instead of starting from scratch.
but I'm only guessing just hope he gets it sorted one way or the other.
anto.
got treatment on my back just now feeling a bit better.let you know more later.
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after the initial 10 mile ride, I spent Friday sorting the front-end. with the saddle up a bit and some new (shallow drop) bars and a new stem, I manage to get a pretty comfortable position while riding around town. Dropped the front tyre pressure by 5 PSI (to somewhere around 70).
just back from a 200km Audax (Erit Lass). The bike felt great, position-wise. As was the case with my first impression, it is much smoother over the bumps than the LHT. Also, as per my first impression, the reach is perfect. The frame is a 56 (ETT in Surly speak, VTT in Thorn speak), and the LHT is a 58cm. The frame is the right size.
About 60km or so into the ride the first climb came. Shifted to the second largest sprocket and the rear mech was pinging off the spokes. Out with the tools to adjust the limit screws, and I find that the problem is actually a bent hanger. On my first 10 mile ride the rear mech looked a bit twisted, but I was so busy thinking about the front-end changes that I didn't really investigate. Let me tell you, some 15% climbs without the use of the lower two sprockets was interesting!
Pretty sad news really. I had already decided just to suck it up, and tinker with the bike myself and make it right, rather than return it. I am due on a ferry to Holland (riding to Slovenia) on the 27th, so hopefully this can all be sorted by then. Given that the bike actually feels good now, better than the LHT ever did, I think it only makes sense to send only the frame back and rebuild the replacement myself.
I just don't know how things could be this wrong. Whether it was a returned bike, a demo bike, built on a Friday after a pub-lunch. Who knows.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3862/15238593515_23b037d9d1.jpg)
onwards and upwards...
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glad you like the frame ,and glad your sending it back the right thing to do.
jags.
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Breaking news: Thorn Club Tour "Best in Test " in the October issue of Cycling Active magazine ! ;D
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except for this one brummie ;D ;D
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btw.. a fresh out the box Brooks Team Pro, bars slightly below the saddle, and not one iota of discomfort over a 200km ride. It was most comfortable when riding on the drops, comfortable when riding on the hoods, and least comfortable when sitting up riding on the tops. Almost the reverse of my B17 (bars level with the saddle).
cheers,
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@jags, regardless of the journey to get here, I can't ignore the fact that after a 200km test ride this frame is exactly what I was looking for.
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thorn bike's are good yours had a few issues things like this happens no big deal.when you get it sorted i dont think you'll be changing again.
best of luck..
jags
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Definitely the bike and not you that's a bit Oeuf this time Doug.
Interesting observation about the team pro/b17.
Good luck
Ian
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Good Morning.
I've not read all through this but I have seen Steve's reply to you on your initial email with link to your blog. One of his options was to offer you 100% refund despite the fact that we built the bike off menu for you (down-tube shifters).
However, the bent rear end is a problem, clearly it can't have left us like that, so it's either transit damage or something that happened since, either way we'll fix it.
I wouldn't normally communicate via the forum on matters like this but as we've not had an email from you about the most recent "developments" it's possible that you'll see my reply sooner and I also would like other forum users to see we actually are doing something! I would like to post Steve's reply to you in full just so others could see our level of aftercare but I think probably I need your permission as it was a private communication.
The telephone seems like the quickest route to resolve this issue, I will attempt to call you shortly.
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Robin,
Thank you for this message (above). We have all been waiting for it!
Goodness knows why the OP did not contact you direct. In my own opinion starting up a 'Blog' with such negativity has not been the best thing to do.
Thank you again, I hope this finds and end to it?
John
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Hi,
here's Steve's email, which I have no probem in adding here. To be fair, this 'latest development' happened at 10pm on Sunday, and Robin emailed me at 07:55 on Monday. That's not a lot of time. Although it is certainly true that I've avoided Steve's earlier email, for reasons which I've told the Thorn guys.
This afternoon I bought a new frame, which I intend to shift all the shift-able components over to. I'll then return the original frame, and hope that the refund happens before my credit card bill appears! I think the 'off-menu' thing is a bit odd, as the bike is (I assume) covered by the distance selling rules (you get 14 days to return the product from the date you receive it).
I think John (even before I decided which frame to buy) has done nothing but criticise and has contributed not a single positive thing to this whole thread. Fair enough, that's the downside of brand-evangelists. However, most people have come up with positive contributions, whether suggestions or encouragement to persevere. For which, I am really thankful.
I did persevere, and yesterdays long ride proved that this was a frame I wanted. Despite all the hassle so far, I've gone a bought another frame. I mean, can you believe that? I actually just paid £500 for a new frame, on top of already paying £1600 for the bike! I didn't get all difficult and demand that Thorn take the financial risk on this one, I just went ahead and put the money down. That's how good the frame is. And that's what I've consistently said, the frame feels smooth and the reach is perfect. It's untrue to say that I've been 100% negative about the bike.
I think Steve's email is quite cool. But the cut steerer, hmm.. :)
"Hi Doug,
Thank you for your email. Sorry to hear that you are not satisfied with your new Club Tour. I would like to take the time to address the points you made in your review on line and try to help you rectify some, if not all of the problems you are experiencing.
Can I first of start off by saying you do have a full 14 day money back guarantee with our bike so if you do not get on with it after 13 days let us know on the 14th day and you can return the bike for a full refund minus postage – there is no limit to the number of miles you ride during this time J.
If the position is not perfect then we are able to ship you a few different stems to have some final adjustment to get the perfect set up. This will allow you to ride the bike for a few days and then make a decision as to how you would like to adjust your position. The saddle being a Brooks will always be slippery initially and it may be helpful to angle it slightyl up or down to help compensate the sliding on the saddle. Also, you could try adjusting the saddle forwards and backwards to stop yourself from pushing back on the saddle.
With the forks, yes, we did cut the steerer as we feel this is something that has to be done so that most of our customers (who aren’t all mechanically minded) can simply take the bike out of the box and ride it straight away. As I say, not all customers are mechaniaclly inclined and would not be able to do this themselves. If the handlebars are too low there is an easy fix for this and this is to take your fitted stem and flip it over 180 degrees and refit it to the bike. This will raise the height of the bar and make you more relaxed. If this is not enough we can ship you a higher angled stem if need be, or we would simply send a new fork if we got it that far out. We take extra time and care to measure customers properly in the first place, so there is usually only ever small changes required which can almost always be taken up in the stem if need be.
The handlebar tape is wrapped close to the centre of the bar to keep the cable routing tidy. If the tape goes too far to the centre of the bar, then we feel it is easier to trim it than it is to redo the whole bar tape. If it is ripped then that would have been done in transit and we can happily supply a new set of tape as this should not be like that.
The brakes require bedding in and will improve over time and you will find their efficiency will increase massively too. With regards to the brake levers we have not heard them rattle before, do they both do it or is it just one?
The gear levers are not in our brochure or menu options and this is somehting you specifically asked for. They are “old school tech” that does work well but with modern improvement in design we would recommend bar end shifter or STI levers for almost all users. We do not know of any higher quality 10 speed down tube shifters but if you can find any please send them back and we can refund you for the levers and this will allow you to find a set you like more.
The gears rubbing in certain chainrings can easily be resolved by moving the front mech shifter (friction) by a couple of degrees to allow the chain to run through without rubbing on the mech cage. The idea of friction shifters is to allow you that slightest bit of adjustment to stop the chain from rubbing. If we had fitted STI levers there is this trim position that stops the rubbing, but you requested a down tube shifter which does not have the option of a trim position, due to its friction. The rear mech is controlled by an indexed shifter and this helps to aid basic shifting through the rear cassette.
Most anatomic drop bars come back further thatn the headtube of the bike now and only a compact bar would stop at the head tube but if you do find you are hitting your knees then we could look at swapping the bar out to a compact version of the handlebar. Her is a link to a copmact shaped bar on our site. http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/shimano-pro-lt-compact-drop-handlebars-318-mm-black-prod29863/
We have not heard that our fork can be too springy before and this may have been down to the road condition but we are unable to say without riding the same spec of bike on the same stretch of road. You do mention that you rode it on a smooth road and it did not occour again but this could be a new style of fork that you need to get used to.
The spare spokes that were provided loose could potentially make it difficult to know wich is which spoke so we take this under out belt and we will look at labeling our spare spokes for future customers to make it easier. The long spokes you have are for the front wheel and the shortest spoke is for the drive side of the rear wheel and the middle size is for the non drive side of the rear wheel.
Once again, I do wish to point out that you have a full 14 day money back guarantee for the Club Tour (minus postage of delivery and collection) so please do continue to ride it over the next few days and if you would like to change any parts please give us a call on 01278 441505 and we can discuss any issues you may still have."
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Well you cant get better than that ;)
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To be fair, this 'latest development' happened at 10pm on Sunday, and Robin emailed me at 07:55 on Monday. That's not a lot of time.
Not a lot of time to email an interested party, but just enough to post publicly on a forum...? Up to you obviously, but don't be surprised when others say what they think about it, just like John did here.
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Not a lot of time to email an interested party, but just enough to post publicly on a forum...? Up to you obviously, but don't be surprised when others say what they think about it, just like John did here.
absolutely, just enough time to publicly post that the bike felt great. that I'd just taken it on a very long ride and come back impressed. yep, I thought that was worth it. Not 'just like John did', no.
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Man, you're standing in the church of the faithful, preaching heresy right in their faces; I can't think of any other forum where the members would be so helpful, all but tiny minority*. But I think you're well within your rights, and I wouldn't have been as polite as you in the face of a constant tide of negativity from John. All the same, you can count on Thorn to do the right thing; we've seen that time and again.
*For instance, see the nasty tide of abuse at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0/KW_fz6H3sbQJ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0/KW_fz6H3sbQJ)
when I explained why I consider a Waterford ludicrously overpriced. That's much more typical of cycle groups when someone tweaks the nose of the collective consciousness; this Thorn forum is a shining example of how most other fora can better themselves.
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Hope you manage to get your bike sorted now, Thorn are renowned for their after sales service.
Mightily impressed by your 200km test ride. Glad you like your Team Pro, I love mine, it will be a friend for life I'm sure.
Good luck with the outcome and looking forward to seeing more photos and ride reports on the forum.
Regards,
Neil.
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Man, you're standing in the church of the faithful, preaching heresy right in their faces; I can't think of any other forum where the members would be so helpful, all but tiny minority*.
you right, the members of this forum have been overwhelmingly helpful and have topped-up the faith I needed to keep going.
I'm now looking forward to catching my ferry on the 27th, and cycling out over the Alps. Plenty of fresh mountain air, and lots of leg burning climbs. :)
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Andre, it's not about Doug preaching heresey at all, but about fairness. Until a week ago or so this was a very interesting thread, aside a few inflamatory and/or unhelpful comments. Overall, really nice support from members in choosing the right bike. However, since receiving his bike Doug seems to be communicating with Thorn also via his blog and the forum: first an email to them with a link to his blog, then posting about the bent hanger here instead of emailing them. How can they put it right before they know it's wrong? Of course Doug is within his rights trying to get the bike he's paid for, and clearly his seems to be a sloppy job, but the way he goes about it is just a tad unfair.
At the same time, sure I'm wishing him all the best getting it sorted!
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Lets hope the new frame and your build creates the bike for the job in hand and the end result is worth all this hassle you are going through.
Looking forward to your ride reports.
I stated in a previous post my brake levers didn't rattle. Well i paid more attention to them on my ride on Sunday.
They rattle when braking, particularly on a rough piece of road (all the time then!). It is the end of the brake cable where it fits into the lever. When I just put my finger on the end piece it stops.
I hadn't noticed before. I don't find it a problem because I will just move my finger to stop it if it bothers me.
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Man, you're standing in the church of the faithful, preaching heresy right in their faces; I can't think of any other forum where the members would be so helpful, all but tiny minority*. But I think you're well within your rights, and I wouldn't have been as polite as you in the face of a constant tide of negativity from John.. All the same, you can count on Thorn to do the right thing; we've seen that time and again.
Andre
I was simply peed off with a new to the brand purchaser complaining in an open Forum. He should have gone direct to Thorn. He should not have written a Blog. He is and I will stand by this statement, 'in the wrong' in this instance!
I cannot believe that the 'described' bike has come from the workshop as it is. I cannot believe that the OP ordered the components and then does nothing but complain.
Madness, as a single call or email would have found a solution. But, no the OP takes the bike apart and buys new components? Why did he not simply buy a frameset alone and build accordingly?
Why has the rear gear hanger been bent?
John
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At the same time, sure I'm wishing him all the best getting it sorted!
See what I mean? Everyone wishes Doug well.
I agree, he's being a bit unfair to Thorn, going public without first giving them a chance to fix what is wrong. But then his buying process has been entirely public, in this thread. You can't have it both ways. I think this sort of openness is worth money in the bank precisely because it exposes the occasional glitch, and it's fixing. It is much more believable than those carefully selected one-sided encomiums you find on the netsites of other products, including some bikes.
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I want to defend far-oeuf on this one. Why go public? Because it's what you do when things go wrong and you are in a rush and a bit upset. And what do we get? A good discussion, some impassioned defence of Thorn, a public reply from the owner himself and lots of learning about frame sizes, potential pitfalls and how Thorn handles things like this.
I'm impressed with the whole thing. No-one has come out badly IMV and it's made me more not less likely to buy a Thorn frame - good feedback from far-oeuf and good follow-up from Thorn.
Far-oeuf is a demanding customer willing to share his experiences. Thorn have given as good as they got. We still live thank goodness in the real world. Great thread all round (including leftpoole's comments).
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<snip>
*For instance, see the nasty tide of abuse at
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0/KW_fz6H3sbQJ (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0/KW_fz6H3sbQJ)
when I explained why I consider a Waterford ludicrously overpriced. That's much more typical of cycle groups when someone tweaks the nose of the collective consciousness; this Thorn forum is a shining example of how most other fora can better themselves.
I have been biting my figurative tongue throughout the latter part of this thread, and had actually composed a post which the computer gods decided I shouldn't send and crashed out my iPad just before I hit "Post". As the situation appears to be resolving, I will keep my opinions to myself.
Quite unlike your adversaries on the RBT forum, Andre! I found that repartee most entertaining, particularly the Neanderthal that decided foul-mouthed belligerence trumped reasoned debate any day. ;D
Although I'm an American, my having lived for thirty years in Oz, Land of the Irreverent has given me an arm's length view of some of my countrymen's occasionally brittle temperament. I myself learned the hard way that it's really easy to wind up a Yank sometimes, as is currently tragically happening in certain parts of the world. >:(
But Andre, from where I sit you played them with aplomb! ;) :D
Finally, and once again, I want to thank the netizens of this forum for their technical knowledge, passionate level headedness and good humour. It truly is a joy corresponding with you all.
Sam
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sure its all good fun sam no need for anyone to loose the rag ;D ;D
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just to conclude the thread (hopefully!)... Today I moved all the components over to a new frame, and have had a quick test ride down to the shops to check all is bolted back on ok. Decided to shift over my old friction shifters, and they work very well (silence is golden..) A couple of things still to sort out, but nothing that's holding me back.
hopefully I'll ride up through the Cairngorms on Tuesday, and back down Wednesday, as a final check my luggage all fits and works. Then off to Europe.
thanks again for the forum help.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5592/15121932058_8e48db2c0b_c.jpg)
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looks great well done.
looks a lot like my audax.
jags.
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Very smart - glad you have sorted it out.
What are the handlebars? They look the sort of shape that I like.
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hey,
I was recommended Deda RHM01 bars (£15); my purpose is fast road riding. I couldn't get hold of some at short notice, so I picked these up second hand. They are Bontranger, but exactly the same shape as the Deda RHM01 bars.
cheers,
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Thanks - the Deda were already high on my list so I'll take a punt. Can hardly go wrong at that price!
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just to conclude the thread (hopefully!)... Today I moved all the components over to a new frame, and have had a quick test ride down to the shops to check all is bolted back on ok. Decided to shift over my old friction shifters, and they work very well (silence is golden..) A couple of things still to sort out, but nothing that's holding me back.
hopefully I'll ride up through the Cairngorms on Tuesday, and back down Wednesday, as a final check my luggage all fits and works. Then off to Europe.
thanks again for the forum help.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5592/15121932058_8e48db2c0b_c.jpg)
so was that photo taking outside SJS shop.
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nope, Ronde (posh bike shop, but the soup in the cafe is inexpensive...) in Stockbridge, Edinburgh :)
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What a beautiful bike! May you enjoy many happy miles riding it!
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Doug!
What a lovely bicycle! So pleased to hear all is sorted for you now. I prefer the same handlebars and downtube shifters on several of my own bikes, so your setup looks very familiar and nicely balanced for very long day rides and multi-day journeys. May you ride it in good health and happy times, and the roads be smooth before you.
Best,
Dan.
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Hello,
So, my supposed 'negative' waves spurred you on?
I am pleased that you got the problems sorted out (as expected from Thorn of course) and that you soon will be away riding 'into the Sunset'!
The completed cycle looks good and the only thing stopping me from changing my own Club Tour frameset is that I do not like the rear disc brake arrangement (cable run etc).
So, enjoy and let us know how your trips turn out.
John
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Un Oeuf is as good as a feast.
Bike looks great and it should brighten the mighty Cairngorms. Wishing you a safe and peaceful trip.
Joe
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Hi,
Frameset now for sale: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=9997.0 (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=9997.0)
Cheers
Doug