Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: horizon on October 20, 2013, 12:49:04 am
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I've lately been exploring the advantages/disadvantages of 26" wheel versus 700c wheel tourers. Given Robin's predilection for 26", theoretically there shouldn't be a 700c Club Tour. So what would a 26" Club Tour look like and how would it differ from the 700c verison and from the Sherpa?
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Ooh! <Dan rubbing hands in glee> Speculation! :D
Right now, there are three 700C-wheeled single bikes among Thorn's offerings: The Mercury, The Audax, and the Club Tour. A look back through the archived brochure index shows the Mercury once had 26in wheels.
It seems Thorn have gone with 26" on everything but the go-fast or traditional touring bikes.
It'll sure be interesting to see how the new Club Tour (Club Tour Mk2?) shakes things up...or not. I'm guessing the new bike will also have a minimally sloping top tube, since it is aimed at more traditional/general use and might not need the extra standover clearance of a bike used off-road.
Best,
Dan. (...who awaits any new or revised Thorn model with great anticipation)
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The XTC would probably be the equivalent of a Club Tour with 26" wheels, and unfortunately it was dropped from the range so presumably didn't sell in sufficient numbers.
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Migrating the Club Tour from 700c to 26" would be flying against the tide of the rest of the cycle industry. But given their apparent stance against disc brakes, that is nothing new for Thorn bikes. Reading the CT brochures I got the impression Thorn were somewhat reluctant to build and sell this bike i.e. "the Sherpa is a better touring bike" and the Audax is a better bike for day trips/sportives and of course Audaxes. Why then did the CT survive in the Thorn stable? Was it down to the resistance to change of British 'traditional' touring cyclists?
So now the CT as we know it is running down and hopefully we will see something new in its place. Is this because the market for the traditional touring bike is waning? Surely even Thorn can't ignore market forces forever and the threat of profits being lost to other bike manufacturers cashing in on the hype around disc brakes and new tyre sizes is bound to be strong. Andy Blance has argued that potential damage to disc brakes could be catastrophic on tour in remote regions, but the counter argument is that it is so very easy to carry a spare rotor.
If market forces are the determining factor then perhaps we could be see a cross function type CT, disc brake equipped with capacity for wide tyres, like a derailleur version of the new Mercury? Or if they really push the boat out maybe even a 650B Club Tour? And of course the marketing men will insist tubeless is de rigeur! ;)
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Worryingly? ( 26" wheel owners ! ) A majority of 2014 mountainbikes that were previously on 26" wheels are now on 650B wheel platform. Could there be limited options for replacement rims (with a braking surface ) in the future ?
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Worryingly? ( 26" wheel owners ! ) A majority of 2014 mountainbikes that were previously on 26" wheels are now on 650B wheel platform. Could there be limited options for replacement rims (with a braking surface ) in the future ?
Hi Brummie!
By happy coincidence, I found both my late Sherpa (a 2011 Mk2) and my current Nomad (2012 Mk2) have brake bosses and clearances that would accommodate 650B wheels and tires. A Grand Bois Lierre on 650B rims has the same outside diameter as my 26x2.0 Schwalbe Duremes, and the v-brake pads will reach nicely.
See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3893.0
Hopefully, similar circumstances will obtain for all Thorn owners with 26in wheels.
Happy day!
Best,
Dan.
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Cheers Dan ! Interesting observation regarding the brake bosses... will have to get the tape measure out :)
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That's the advantage of following the leader ;D (i've got a Sherpa mk2).
Thanks for the information Dan !
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It would be an XTC with less clearance I'd say...the XTC has very long stays/rear clearance which gives it a rather long turning circle and so it's not "sporty" enough probably for the Audax market.
As audaxes are done on 700c wheels not sure there's a market for it as people may not see the point.
Let's see how long the 650b craze lasts...I wouldn't be surprised if 29ers will be a new standard, but 650b is such a marginal difference to justify new forks etc...
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It is interesting to define what "standard" means. Most big tourers are advised to go for 26in when choosing their bikes because it is supposed to be the world's standard, but as you know, in Europe and I guess US/Canada, anything can be found in any bike shop.
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in Europe and I guess US/Canada, anything can be found in any bike shop.
Funny, what shops have and what they don't! My big Workcycles bike came with Dunlop valves, which are the same diameter as Schraeder. How about some inner tubes, Schraeder valve and 622x47 size? ... nothing doing! My LBS is pretty small but they have some nice stuff for sure. Presta!
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Let's see how long the 650b craze lasts...I wouldn't be surprised if 29ers will be a new standard, but 650b is such a marginal difference to justify new forks etc...
I don't think the 650B is a 'craze' that'll disapear - All the major tyre brands are making 650B (mtb) tyres - Most the American MTB brands have either replaced their 26" wheel models with 650B for 2014 ( the only exceptions appear to be entry level hardtails & downhill rigs ) - It's just a way to sell more bikes ! If the 'marketting men' & the magazines say that 650B is bigger/better/ faster people will want to buy into it... Nowt wrong with 26" BUT there just maybe less choice for them in the future. Like 27" rims & tyres.
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They may of course be doing all of us a favour. it doesn't matter whether they sell 650B as better (e.g. faster), the fact remains that it could potentially be the Golden Mean. If road/touring bike makers also switched from 700c to 650B then we have a common wheel for all frames. Of course, most 700c bikebuilders may not like a smaller wheel but Thorn have managed to persuade lots of people that 26" is as good as 700c for most things (and 650B is even that bit bigger). While I am happy with just the two sizes with their different potentials, the switch to 650B (inasmuch as we cannot do much about it) may not be wholly bad.
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How would a 26" Club Tour differ from the Sherpa?
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How would a 26" Club Tour differ from the Sherpa?
That's what I want to know.
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How would a 26" Club Tour differ from the Sherpa?
It would be called and look like a Sherpa!
John
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It would be called and look like a Sherpa!
John
Is that really all there is to it? In that case, I think the case for 650B is made. But I have my doubts: are not the forks wider on the Sherpa (or is that just wheel diameter?) or the tubes thicker/wider?
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They may of course be doing all of us a favour. it doesn't matter whether they sell 650B as better (e.g. faster), the fact remains that it could potentially be the Golden Mean. If road/touring bike makers also switched from 700c to 650B then we have a common wheel for all frames. Of course, most 700c bikebuilders may not like a smaller wheel but Thorn have managed to persuade lots of people that 26" is as good as 700c for most things (and 650B is even that bit bigger). While I am happy with just the two sizes with their different potentials, the switch to 650B (inasmuch as we cannot do much about it) may not be wholly bad.
But then the roadies also need to go 650B...
That will get interesting! :D
The current trend there is disc brakes btw. on road bikes. Well if you swing down a hill at 60MPH maybe not such a bad idea...
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I think ... put 26" wheels on a Club Tour ... and you have a close enough to a Sherpa ... that you should just finish the job and call it a SHERPA.
To me the draw of a Club Tour is that is is (apparently) the most stable, least twitchy ride, that has all the trappings of yesteryear. And that is a heck of a draw.
Otherwise, why not save a small fortune and do what everyone else here in the states does - Buy a Surly.
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There's a nice Surly on the CTC forum for sale right now. Think its for someone around 5' 10'. Now if someone not unknown on these boards gets his Thorn US franchise Surly will be in for some stiff competition ;)
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Well well,
650B!
The man who started to use 650B on mountain bikes stop after a few years and how this is the size too have? Yes its all about the sale of more bikes!
Is this a good or bad thing? Well I now work full time in a cycleshop and it just mad PR.
Ride a good 29"er (700c rim) and their is no point in the mid size.
But it maybe the end for all 26" MTB's in a few years.
I have coming this week a new $8500 NZ 29"er with One by 11.
I would not have if 29"ers were not the best all round for MTBing.
Pete & Tom..
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its all about the sale of more bikes!...But it maybe the end for all 26" MTB's in a few years.
<grumble> I got caught out when the 27in touring wheels were beat out by 700C.
Thank goodness my past Sherpa Mk2 and now the Nomad Mk2's brake mounts will accept 650B size rims. A 650x38B Grand Bois Lierre has essentially the same outside diameter as my 26x2.0 Schwalbe Duremes: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3893.0
Best,
Dan. (...who wonders if we might someday see a 650B Club Tour)
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Hi Dan,
Yes I have been working on Tom today and your right their is a lot of room to adjust brake pads to 650B! (in the USA 27five)
But i'll be sticking to 26" wheels as Africa (e.t.c) are still 26" and the old 3 speed size? (28 x 1 3/8?)
Tom has changed a little today 8)
Pete..................
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Tom has changed a little today
Very much looking forward to photos of the New Tom, Pete!
All the best,
Dan.
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Interesting image here of comparisons and measurement of 26" and 650 wheels. Taken from the Wikipedia article here ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_wheel
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A 29er is really a 700C wheel with fat MTB tires, reaching an outside circumference of 29 inches.
650B still has its uses for people under 5"3' for example as otherwise you have "crank overlap" instead of "toe overlap" ;)
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650B still has its uses for people under 5"3' for example as otherwise you have "crank overlap" instead of "toe overlap" ;)
I'm 5'3" and using the smallest 26" frame available and it's just on the limit for my size. A 650B, though I've never tried one, I'm sure is going to be literally stretching it in my case. I've even been told that I should be using a 24" wheel size frame because that would be a better fit for me :'(
Thankfully Lisa at Thorn, after receiving my measurements, has said a 510L Nomad frame is the correct one, which aligns roughly with my current 26" steed. We shall see.
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A 29er is really a 700C wheel with fat MTB tires, reaching an outside circumference of 29 inches.
650B still has its uses for people under 5"3' for example as otherwise you have "crank overlap" instead of "toe overlap" ;)
Well almost right on Specialized Lady's MTB you can go down to 4'9" with No Toe/Crank Overlap.
But on most make's your right 5'3" and smaller and you need smaller wheels.
But why 27five? it's all about Selling more bikes to People! Do you know that a 26 x 2.5" tyred wheel is the some size as most 27five?
Pete...
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I'm 5'3" and using the smallest 26" frame available and it's just on the limit for my size. A 650B, though I've never tried one, I'm sure is going to be literally stretching it in my case. I've even been told that I should be using a 24" wheel size frame because that would be a better fit for me :'(
Thankfully Lisa at Thorn, after receiving my measurements, has said a 510L Nomad frame is the correct one, which aligns roughly with my current 26" steed. We shall see.
Hi it's not about wheels size but more about how well a bike is Designed around the rider!
Happy Cycling
Pete.....
PS: My new 29"er is ETA for this friday :P
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I'm 5'3" and using the smallest 26" frame available and it's just on the limit for my size. A 650B, though I've never tried one, I'm sure is going to be literally stretching it in my case. I've even been told that I should be using a 24" wheel size frame because that would be a better fit for me :'(
Thankfully Lisa at Thorn, after receiving my measurements, has said a 510L Nomad frame is the correct one, which aligns roughly with my current 26" steed. We shall see.
Good luck! There's some vintage frames up for sale too that are small:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-xtc-bare-metal-frame-and-fork-set-prod4291/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-exp-bare-metal-frame-and-fork-set-475-s-%284%29-with-cast-crown-prod3709/
Brochures with geometry are here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6975.0
To clarify of course frame geometry matters also, but on a drop bar frame you need a shorter top tube, and there it can become very difficult to get off the peg bikes that fit.
On my 51 cm TT 700C Ciocc I have little overlap, but the headtube is slacker than the seattube. This wasn't normally done on old Italian frames but may have been an adjustment as these frames were built to order.
In the old days track/race frames for smaller sizes were often done in 650B or even 26".
I am 5"5 btw...
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There's a nice Surly on the CTC forum for sale right now. Think its for someone around 5' 10'. Now if someone not unknown on these boards gets his Thorn US franchise Surly will be in for some stiff competition ;)
Here in Oz I can get a Surly for about half of what a Thorn would cost me without taking into account the freight component.
If you are importing into the US in volume you might get closer but IMO Thorn would be competing with Co-motion and not Surly.
( Not that there is anything wrong with Surly, I ride one!)
Mike