It is really bad I know try to get that underwear picture out my head?<nods> Yeah, I know...I thought awhile before posting that. The trouble is, if you try it in riding shorts, the "chamois" pad gets in the way of accurate measurements. And if one tries it in the buff, it is actually harder to get accurate measurements. Thin, knit underwear fabric is the way to go for accuracy.
I guess underwear for cycling is possibly another topicUhhh...yeah. S'pose so. :-\ "try[ing] to get that underwear picture out my head".
I've been on other people's B17, broken and new, and have found them all too narrow for the angle of my back. But then you're not supposed to sit on a B17 but to hover your bottom above it and support yourself on your legs with your feet on the pedals. I just don't understand why loaded tourers, whose needs are different, would fit the B17 new.My response (not in disagreement, but in amplification) is touring means different things to different people, and the nature of "touring" has changed over time. "Touring" of today is not the touring of old.
If one goes for a Brooks or other leather-suspended saddle, sit-bone width has a direct bearing on comfort. Why? It is because these saddles have a steel rear flange to which the leather is attached. For these saddles to be comfortable, your sit-bones must sit on the leather and not the flange.
...it certainly did NOT feel more comfortable to be on the unsupported leather than on the flange.Hi Frank!
I should note that I spent much of life before I retired sitting on a folding metal chair as my office chair, so maybe the skin over my sitbones is toughened up from that.Maybe! :)
"After years of abuse from riding, slipping, and perhaps even getting kicked waaaay back when I’ve decided that once I get into more friendlier Medicare territory to undergo surgery to have one of my testicles removed that seems to give problems for no apparent reason, even after repeat visits to doctors along with x-rays, ultrasounds, and other “exploratory” measures. Enough is enough."
It's hard to tell exactly where I am sitting, but after shifting around a bit, I came to the conclusion that I am sitting on the flange. The flange is wider right where my sit bones go, so this isn't uncomfortable. I do notice that when I hit a big bump, I slide forwards and hit against the leather part of the saddle, so that I bounce a bit. But then I immediately push myself back onto the flange.
The best place to be seated on a leather saddle is always well towards the rear, just ahead of the rivets, where the saddle is a good deal wider to support your sit-bones. Further forward the saddle narrows a lot and you'll place nasty pressure on your perineum
You need to tilt your saddle's nose up a bit, so that you don't slide or bounce forwards at all, but stay in the best seating position. The correct tilt in my experience with a bike with the bars level with, or a little below, the saddle is about 5-10 degrees max. You can see it here on my bike:
Do I blame my Brooks B17 leather saddle for causing my testicular torsion? At first I felt it was the cycling and friction between me and saddle that was to blame, but in hindsight I almost certainly now know that it was a cold shower totally un-related to the cycling that caused it
Click the URL below to see a photo of his saddle:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/)
Holy aching testicles! Methinks he's dreaming if he doesn't think riding a saddle like that isn't going to cause health problems eventually.
Ow those anatomical saddles ARE nice :)
I can testify that a slot/deep groove is the way to go...and I don't even have man bits to worry about!
The default cheaper bikes generally come with nice fat gel saddles, can't go much wrong with that.
My experience with the Terry did make me wonder whether the guys who cut keyhole slots in Brooks saddles aren't on to something. I'm terrifically busy, so someone else will have to find the piccies on the net. Sorry.
Brooks womens saddles go right back to the 1890s bike boom, when women took to the wheel. They were not developed for any physiological reasons, but rather to make life easier for women riding their drop-frame bikes with long skirts. A long saddle (better for spring and comfort) would snag their skirts, so the shorter nose saddle was developed.
If you like a hard saddle, or ride in skirts, get a womens model. Otherwise a 'mens' saddle will be more comfy.
It's a man saddle on the XTC atm...No, it isn't....it's a Jawine saddle now! ;) ;D
Women have more distance between their ischial tuberosities (sit bones) so need a wider saddle than men.<nods> As a generality, with individual exceptions. My slim-hipped sister asks me to mention she finds "women's" saddles uncomfortably wide and prefers a narrower one designed/marketed for men. Same for two of my past girlfriends. Back angle/riding position can make a difference for all; the ischial tuberosities become effectively wider for many folks with rearward rotation. If riding in a full tuck, I can get by with a much narrower saddle then I can in my regular touring position.
There are some anatomical differences. Women have more distance between their ischial tuberosities (sit bones) so need a wider saddle than men.Quite correct for many (but not all) women. However the Brooks S models are generally no wider than the mens model, only shorter. So they do not resolve this anatomic issue at all. Certainly women should get the B67 if they have wider hips. A female friend uses the rather lovely B18 and swears by its comfort, but it is not any shorter than a B17.
Hm that might be a factor, as I sit more forwards on the XTC and upright on fixie. Could try swapping saddles and compare if anybody is interested?
Saddles do seem to be almost universally 'martmite' in that what one person likes another will find awful.
Marmite, hmmm - it's not quite up there with the train and longitude is it ? ;-)
sdg.
hobbes where does your mind be ;D ;D ::)
Vegemite is better though, :o
Dear All,
The Marmite "ratio", that golden mean. A good depth spread in relation to bread thickness. If your mouth isn't numbed you've not got enough.
Everyone, go and try marmite and peanut butter on hot buttered toast, now.
Yours, James
Everyone, go and try marmite and peanut butter on hot buttered toast, now.Would if I could!
If your mouth isn't numbed you've not got enough.Eek!
Would if I could!
Hmm. French for "pot" or "vessel". That doesn't seem right with peanut butter and toast.Eek!
Ah! A spread. Not unlike Vegemite, it seems.
For those of us in the former Colonies who have never tasted Marmite...can you *describe* the taste of same? Is there anything similar to serve as a taste analog? I know Vegemite, and have tasted it. Not bad. Marmite, from what Wikipedia tell me, is similar but...saltier? It looks darker and more syrupy in the photos I've seen: http://britishfood.about.com/od/diningdrinkingtradition/a/marmitevvegemite.htm
And is there a preference for Original versus the XO formulation? And...is it carried whilst traveling, as I've read? I gather refrigeration is not required?
Best,
Dan. (...who is learning the proper terms for mudguards (fenders), tyres (tires), trousers (pants), and now...Marmite (Vegemite in mufti?)
Dan its a JAR not a tube my god ;D ;D ;D
SO Andre was i going about this all wrong should it have been spread on toast,
damn there was i eating it out of the JAR. :-[
Ratios of mostly MarmiteVegemite
Vegemite http://www.about-australia-shop.com/vegemite.htmThanks for that, Pete!
yiss are all gone mental ???
What, perchance, are faggots?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food) say:
Faggots are a traditional dish in the UK,[1][2] especially South and Mid Wales and the Midlands of England.[3][4][5] It is made from meat off-cuts and offal, especially pork.[3] A faggot is traditionally made from pig's heart, liver and fatty belly meat or bacon minced together, with herbs added for flavouring and sometimes bread crumbs.
I have had a go at bananas and marmite.Brave man, Jimmer. For Science! indeed <bows, doffs hat in respect>
I felt I owed it to the collective to call him on this one. You can't let an assertion like "ooh, Marmite and bananas go great together" go untested.
I lathered one of the unripe bananas I got earlier today. It tasted of greasy steel. Surprisingly, not too bad."Greasy steel"? Eh, I've had worse. Sounds worth keeping.
I'll leave one of the banana's to ripen, try with that and report back.Medal material, Man. For Science. Respect. Word.
I have had a go at bananas and marmite ... I lathered one of the unripe bananas I got earlier today. It tasted of greasy steel. Surprisingly, not too bad.
You're not supposed to give the under-16s Marmite either: it is widely known as an addictive substance.:o Is that how Patricia Sierra started?
:o Is that how Patricia Sierra started?
And...what price paid by poor James? <harumph!> Stuff should come with warning labels.
At the great risk of returning this thread around back in it's original direction...Here ya go, Matt; Proofide and a cover worked for me:
May I solicit some views on my thoughts re a leather saddle?
Brooks of course. But I have a mental problem with leather being out in all sorts of nasty weather when I am away on a long long tour.
I know it will be "proofed" and I know they sell nice wee care kits but I still think it will suffer from snow ice and hot sun variations.
Someone put me right on this please
I don't think it matters what you use to weatherproof your saddle, or even whether you use anything at allSo...Marmite 'stead of Proofide, Andre?
I have learned my lesson and will never again mention any yeast derived edible paste productsNo worries! It provided a pleasant diversion with a lot of fun and we got back to the saddle question in-between. Dunno how I'd ever split it into a half-muppet thread with any remaining integrity to the original , so best to let it stand intact. As R.A. Lafferty said, "The law of levity is allowed to supersede the law of gravity".
As R.A. Lafferty said, "The law of levity is allowed to supersede the law of gravity".
are you getting much snow up there jawine.
i'm hoping to get a spin in tomorrow.
Titanium rails???Well, Matt...
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?Titanium is lighter than steel -- about 110g/3.88oz when it is used in saddle rails and cantle plates -- not in a place where it will do a lot of good insofar as making you much faster.
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?
Will I save 0.0009 gm?
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?
Will I save 0.0009 gm?
Jags, thanks for your interest; and others, in advance for your tolerance. Foto of my airhead below on a sunny afternoon high above the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, en route to the Carolinas, Sept 2011. Barely linked to this thread, but beneath the sheepskin on the saddle, there's some Obenaufs on the saddle too.thanks john beautiful bike. ;)
Andre, wow! -- Brooks on a Brough! Not just alliterative; quality in association.
J,
(http://)
...thanks for your interest; and others, in advance for your tolerance<cough> A most beautiful bike, and it has two wheels. Squint hard, and it looks just like a Thorn when I have my glasses off. ;) :D My father's old Indian and Cleveland moto-cycles (as they were properly called and trademarked at the time) have been referenced in the Forum as well: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg23897#msg23897
Has anyone here tried the Chinese- or Indian-made Brooks copies?
I've seen a few, held a few, but have never tried one firsthand to see how they rode, either initially or over time.
I grew up mainly in a desert called the Little Karroo...Andre,
...once the mold took hold, you couldn't ever again clear it out completely.No truer words than that.
As a child, we often wondered if it was indeed a Brooks, but by then the surface had pebbled to the point where we could no longer discern a logo. By the time I was 8, large chunks had fallen out and it had to be replaced with something more contemporary.
When my father was a boy, he corresponded with other kids living there (they met as enthusiasts of the same youth-oriented Western/cowboy magazine) and this writer sent b/w photos and waxed eloquent over the spectacular nature of the Karoo's sunsets. Apropos nothing except you happened to live there for a time...d'you remember the sunsets as well?
Andre, here's a foto of the back yard of friends we were visiting in Prince Albert in Dec 2005--foto taken in Sept 2005. Looking South towards the Swartburg Mtns in the background, your home in the Karroo might be just a ways over the crest and then SE. I put this onto my desktop now and again, when we start to get colour-deprived around mid-late-Feb....
X __As a boy I actually raced ostriches, and on one occasion scooped up the intestines of a handler at the races who got in front of an ostrich's four-inch claw when he should have been behind it, and dropped his guts back in the cavity, keeping his stomach closed until the truck arrived to take him to the hospital. He survived, though he walked skew.__XWTMI, Andre :o :o
Ostrich racing? I didn't know you could...there you go learned something new :)
One escaped in NL some time ago and started chasing cyclists (and to 60 km per hour...)
He had to be shot as they couldn't catch him and they have a mega kick with mega nails. Beasts with attitude I didn't know you could even mount them :)
Now maybe you can ride them with the right saddle... ;D
WTMI, Andre :o :o
:-X (ill)
Now you've put me off my lunch!
Ah but, I've never ever heard any man referring to their bikes as a "he".Till now! ;D
Anthropomorphizing ahoy!
What does that make the glitter red Mixte fixie...metrosexual male? :P
Holy cow that thread turns nasty pretty quickly though you hold your stride. And then they say men aren't bitchy... ;D
Indeed that Waterford is Not A Mixte. Which are not as low as Dutch frames, but still ok if your skirt isn't too tight. I ride it fixed and prefer not to risk anything that can get stuck on the saddle nose.
Mixte are quite stiff, originally used for racing for a bit. I guess frame stiffness is another one of those selling points.
I can't image with short stays etc. a lot of the frame stiffness talk is not just merely talk.
*unless may you are 100KG and a brute*
Risk putting thread back on rails here...;D
the vintage beastie (of which I am proudAnd rightfully so, I might add! You did a wonderful build, Jawine; I don't remember seeing them look any nicer in the showroom, new, back in the day!
...it [new Selle Royal Regal saddle] may be one of these saddles that needs some sitting on before it feels really good.I suspect you're right, Jawine. I had one Avocet Touring II that did that, and it turned out to be one of my favorite saddles...later. ;) Just took a bit of time for me to shape to it and vice versa. If it is any help, it looks wonderful on the bike.
Tubulars and a frame built when races weren't done on smooth tarmac do a great job of dampening the worst of the roads btw, really takes out vibration.It really is wonderful how much compliance is in that combination, isn't it? Nothing rides quite like it. You may still have to post (stand) on occasion when encountering a really sharp jolt or big bump, but that's a small price to pay.
Never had one[Cheeko90], guess they only work in an upright position but otherwise must be comfy :)
. You can see the Cheeko90 on my electronic/automatic Trek tourer at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html It's an American invention, made in the Far East; mine was imported from The Netherlands and cost under forty euro (I seem to remember...)
The other horsemen are elyptical chainrings, automatic gears, airless tyres and shaft-drive.
I don't care that they weren't commercially successful. I liked them both because they worked well for me.
Mostly they have not been commercially successful because they don't provide the claimed benefits for most people, have significant disadvantages that outweigh the benefits, and/or are subject to massive failure or huge wear losses after they have been in use for a while.
Great if they work for you, but "one swallow does not a summer make" ;)
A personal question, but I'm just in from the shed with my B17 in one hand and chainsaw in the other. How big is your butt? For that money I'm prepared to sculpt it to fit your posterior's finest contour.
...the B17 class of saddle isn't intended to lounge on but to be hovered over lightly....Ideally matched to the hummingbird cadence and forward lean of the touring roadie.
With tears of gratitude in my eyes, for I know what it costs a man to offer his B17 to another......An act of generosity so rare, I have never before seen it in an online forum.
My butt is elegantly narrow, but I sit nearer upright than very likely anyone else here, so my saddle must be wider. And I do sit, whereas the B17 class of saddle isn't intended to lounge on but to be hovered over lightly.
Sounds like what you need is a B67. Wider saddle with springs to take the jolting out of an upright position. I use a similar B66 (double-rail saddle) on my upright roadster and it works very nicely on the railway crossings.
B67
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4142/4869637127_d63b500ec2_z.jpg)
Andre,
I reckon it could be done with the bottom rail in the upper position of the pentaclip.
BUT the saddle is only held by the bottom rail which on my twin rail saddles measure 5.75/5.82 mm chromed/painted and my single rail saddles all measure 7mm. So a lower strength when using just the lower rail.
I did not fancy my wife being on the 'bleeding edge' of technology, certainly not in such a crucial area, if the saddle rail failed.
Sadly the pentaclip guys have missed an opportunity to offer a 'brooks twin rail' pentaclip with the alloy side pieces cast to have the right spacing and size for the twin rail saddles. It looks eminently feasible.
I will be interested to hear how you get on if you try it.
Julian.
That Brooks with all it's sofa springiness is over a KG! ;D Still, that or saddle sores/sore butt?
... the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.
Now do I want to waste a banana I've only one left...
Breeze Seat Sandwich ?? (http://www.wallbike.com/saddle-accessories/breeze-seat-sandwich) Like they said in the 1970s women's garment ads "It lifts and separates" ;)
the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.
... the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.The threads have to be chased.
...a mere straw broke some poor dromedary's spine.Drat! I knew there was a flaw...
If you ride with a 50kg load, that 1kg more is only 2% of the total. Nothing!
Ride a heavy enough bike and -- beyond a certain point -- anything weight you add to the load is "free". ;) :D ;D
That's the same with alcohol when on bike tours - "alcohol has no weight"Exactly! ;D
Nothing like a good leather saddle (Regal/Brooks/Rolls/Concor) but some people don't get on with them.
Only one of those is a real leather saddle ;)
Working my way up to this:;D :D ;)
http://sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html
;D :D ;)
A do wish my recent Brooks B.17s didn't go soft so quickly. Each new one I buy seems softer than the last. I do hope Brooks isn't trying to make their products more "accessible" to a mass audience, neglecting their hard-core fans in the process.
A happy side-effect of Danneaux's Great Suspension Seatpost Experiment may be longer saddle life, 'cos the leather doesn't have to absorb the sharp impacts from a bouncing posterior all by itself. Time will tell.
All the best,
Dan.
Try lacing a brooks saddle when it goes too soft.
It is very easy to do and it brings it back to ‘normal’.
Use a spring toggle clamp on the lacing and you can then adjust it quickly to suit.
Julian.
I now almost must have one to compare it to a stone saddleAs Pavel might say, "Yes! Yes, YES!" ;D (Any excuse for a Brooks, Jawine!)
Have some slight misgivings as I don't normally buy knock-offs... Then again, I also bought a set of Spa's XD2 cranks for my Raven's drive train, and am very pleased by how pretty they look, all the more so 'cos of the very good price -- sans VAT, several steps south of £20.
Thank gawd for that Andre, for setting me straight.... Any soothing words about the saddle, now that we're on the subject?
Whoa! The XD2 cranks Spa sells aren't the knockoffs, they're the real thing straight from Sugino. It's the poncey, polished, house-branded ones out of China that are the knockoffs. And Sugino is so easy to work with, many of the housebrand XD2 aren't Chinese knock-offs either, but real Sugino made by Sugino with somebody else's brand on them. My Stronglight Impact Compact cranks are really Sugino Cospea forged by Sugino and labelled for Stronglight; other Stronglight Impact models, including their Rohloff-specific models, are Sugino XD2, ditto. At four times the price of Spa's XD2...
Well done, John.
I've been looking for one of these since buying the Club Tour frame...Oh, that's a beautiful saddle, Chris, and at a fantastic price! All congratulations your way on what is sure to be a long and happy relationship!
I'm hoping I've made an excellent long term choice!!I think you most likely have, Nich; congratulations!
Brooks also does cut out saddles now.Selle Anatomica do, too: http://selleanatomica.com/
both seem OK for me.The pro (bit wider) is on the Thorn, the Lite 209 on the fixed wheel.
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
;)
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
;)
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
;)
Madness it is! I'd have gone red but he didn't have any in when I ordered and if I'd gone black I'd definitely have lost it.
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
;)
Madness it is! I'd have gone red but he didn't have any in when I ordered and if I'd gone black I'd definitely have lost it.
True.... mine (black) was lost behind the tumble drier for a month.