Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: ourclarioncall on December 29, 2020, 03:36:55 am
-
Weighing up how much fuss it would be having to deal with a puncture on the rear wheel with a rohloff+chain+chainglider ....
V
rohloff+belt
Say I got a puncture and had to take the old tube off and put a new one on, what would this look like in both of these different setups ?
-
Not sure for the belt, but punctures with a Chainglider aren't really an issue. The back part unclips in seconds, the front part helps keep the chain tidy if you remove the wheel to replace the inner tube (It is also possible to mend many punctures without removing the rear wheel).
For the Rohloff, removing the wheel means unclipping the bayonet connectors or the external shifter box. IMO, not much more hassle than removing a derailleur wheel.
I have rim brakes, so have to deflate a 50 mm tyre before removing, refitting a rear wheel. Don't know if disc brakes make this easier or not.
-
I've not had a bike with either belt or chain glider, but I have been on group rides where a punctures on both have been dealt with, the time wasn't any different to those on a bike with a plain chain. I don't think it should be a factor in you decision making process.
EDITED double negative :-[
-
No experience of belt drive or chain glider but a lot of time is saved dealing with a puncture by carrying a spare tyre in addition to inner tube.
I,m running folding 26”x 1.6” marathon supremes on my Mk2 nomad and carry an old Panaracer Pasela tour guard 1.75” folding spare (450g. The 1.6 supreme is 475g). Quick and Easy to whip off damaged inner tube and tyre, stuff them in the pannier and simply replace the lot. Mend puncture, or punctures (you might think you’ve found the puncture but another mile down the road the tyre deflates again 🙁) at home in dry and warmth.
Recommend practicing wheel removal etc at home before being faced with roadside repairs. I also find loosening the rack bolts at the dropouts helps replacing wheel and reengaging disk rotor in the disc brake module.
-
Just to add - It seems to have gone out of fashion, but at least half my punctures" are fixed without removing the wheel. If it's obvious what the cause is, then removing that by taking a section of tyre off one side of the rim and patching is no slower than removing wheel and replacing tube. Plus, you are then returned to the pre puncture position, rather than having something left to deal with at another time.
*I'm unlikely to get out again this year, so without jinxing I can say I've had three in 9,500 km, which is one more puncture than last year despite 4,000 fewer km's. I'm not saying they aren't sometimes a bit of an inconvenience, but unless there's a critical reason to avoid them (Like a commute where I had to catch a specific train) they are not important enough to influence any other decision. Modern tyres do seem to be a lot better than those of a decade or so ago, I've had several in recent years that have worn out without ever puncturing.
-
Experience told me many years ago, always without fail or excuse, ride with the best quality anti puncture tyres affordable-or indeed not affordable.
No need to change tyres or tubes or possibly even carry a spare!
-
Before experiencing how good Schwalbe Marathon really are, I rode on several brands/models of tyres and suffered punctures more often than I should have. I thought that a mid quality brand tyre plus self sealing inner tube (saving around 20% over a Marathon) would be as good.
From using self sealing tubes I did experience punctures and only on one occasion did I find the gloop in the tube effectively sealed the tyre. What I did find was that the valves often failed to seal correctly if a deflation and reinflation was required caused by the sealant getting in the valve chamber. Not impossible to fix but getting slow punctures from slow leak valves is annoying.
I’ve managed to puncture Marathons too, but in extreme situations. I foolishly rode over a broken bottle to show how good the smart guard was. A huge piece of glass tore the sidewall! I also blew out another with a rim worn out by rim brakes. I’d tried ignoring the telltale ‘bumpy lump’ feel when braking to get ‘another week’ out of a rim. I got the week but the tyre was toast as was the tube.
I’ve got a used spare for my derailleur bike that has been left exposed to light for 3-4 years. It was well worn but whole before but I noticed that when I pumped up to 6 bar that the rubber has begun to crack and I can see the blue smart guard through the cracks. Not punctures yet, but I’ll not risk it due to rubber perishing.
I recently drilled out a rim to take car valve tubes and got first puncture in my 8000km+ Marathon because I didn’t notice a slither of drilled rim between tyre and tube. So my bad, and tyre was still good after patching tube.
But generally you can expect Marathons to last longer with regular inner tube than most alternatives even with self seal tubes. And if you don’t push them to extremes ignoring danger signs of
damaged rims, huge glass shards, foreign bodies inside tube or rubber that has begun to perish you should be able to get many thousands of miles trouble free use out of them.
Even with puncture resistant tyres/ if you see nails, glass or other foreign objects in the tyre- best to remove them. I just fount a 5mm glass shard that had to be pulled out with pliers, but tyre was still good after and smart guard had stopped it. But who knows how long before protective layer would hold? Not worth the risk.
Final tip- be safe and be seen. Take the Reflex option with whatever tyre you choose. The reflective stripe helps keep you visible during hours of darkness. This is probably more important passive protection than worrying about avoiding punctures. What good is the best tyre if a car driver overlooked you because those reflex/reflective stripe option on tyre sidewalk were dropped to save a couple of quid on same model tyre without the reflex stripe?
-
Farmers cut their hedges round here any time from about November to January and the the cuttings are spewed over the lanes. I suspect that Blackthorn will eventually find a way round any puncture protection available. Having said that in 6 years I think I’ve had three punctures in Duremes, two thorn and one tiny shard of quartz or maybe glass, two within easy walking distance of home. I changed to semi slick Supremes about 3 years ago and have had only two punctures, one very very slow which was detected at home when th3 tyre was deflating only slightly more that usual over a number of days and one more recently within about 3 miles from home where I was able to practice my full tyre/tube pit stop which proved liberating in terms of ease compared with on the go puncture repairs over the years by fellow group members.
-
Before experiencing how good Schwalbe Marathon really are,
Which Marathon is that? Schwalbe list nine current models in the Marathon range, there's others that are no longer listed, at lest three of the models have current variations, and many others have evolved over time. I'm currently running four Marathon versions - HS 368 on the folder, Marathon Supreme Evo on the Mercury, Marathon Almotion V-Guard on the 29'er and Marathon Racer on the tourer. They're all decent tyres, though they all serve slightly different purposes, maybe it's a mistake for Schwalbe to call them all Marathons, though they are all still IMO touring tyres.
The risk with any of these debates is to assume that someone else's criteria will be the same as your own. Schwalbe list five characteristics for each of their tyres (At least for the Marathon range)
Rolling
Road Grip
Off Road Grip
Protection
Durability
A quick look at that and it's obvious that you can't have everything. So depending on the bike and usage, you can prioritise them in whichever order suits you. That's not to disagree with anyone who puts puncture resistance at the top of their list, but it's rarely at the top of mine.
-
Before experiencing how good Schwalbe Marathon really are,
Which Marathon is that?
I ride with HS440 on my bikes- with the exception of the Schwalbe Winter spikes I'm experimenting with since last week.
I agree that best tyre really depends from rider to rider. Best can be quickest, best grip, lightest, nicest colour or other factors important to an individual. For me as a daily commuter reliability and puncture protection is key as are fairly slick tyres. For an MTB rider grip on muddy tracks moreso.
But decent tyres are a must in my opiion.
-
I ride with HS440 on my bike
Is that the Marathon Plus?
I know someone who uses them all the time, they ride everywhere and when we tour together I can't keep up. I hate the Plus tyres, they're the only tyre I've ever said that about, I found them completely wooden, I'd rather have a daily puncture than ever use them again.
OK, my studded tyres are probably as bad, but I only use them if I absolutely have to and then it's short and slow rides.
-
Is that the Marathon Plus?
I know someone who uses them all the time, they ride everywhere and when we tour together I can't keep up. I hate the Plus tyres, they're the only tyre I've ever said that about, I found them completely wooden, I'd rather have a daily puncture than ever use them again.
OK, my studded tyres are probably as bad, but I only use them if I absolutely have to and then it's short and slow rides.
I've had Marathon Plus in three different sizes, for use on visitor bikes where the idea was to avoid having someone without experience try and repair a puncture on the rear wheel of a hub-geared bike.
The 28x700c I got several years ago were very harsh to ride (horrible) and noticeably less efficient than other tyres in the same size.
More recently I have used 40x584 and 50x559, these were much more comfortable to ride and I noticed less of an efficiency hit. Maybe the recent versions are better than the older ones. But in these sizes I still prefer much lighter tyres like the Supreme and Dureme.
-
In the days of British Postmen (Post-persons ?) riding bicycles I asked Pete out Postman what were the best tyres.
"Marathon Plus" was his answer.
He was and still is, dead right. All my bikes have Plus tyres where available.
I ride an ex PO bike (Elephant Bike) round locally, still with its original Marathon Plus's.
-
If I rode an Elephant bike I'd probably use Pluses as well, what have you got to loose?
But it must make a bike designer cry, when they've gone to all that trouble to design something to offer the most comfortable ride, then someone ruins it with wooden tyres.
I was very tempted by an Elephant bike for delivery work, but the gearing didn't work for me and the extra weight would make carrying upstairs to my flat a struggle. Still like the idea of that big front basket and the low stepover, maybe some other time.
-
I have an elephant bike for shopping and deliveries around town, and I live in the Peak District. It has M plus tyres but my Mercury has Marathon Supremes and I have had three P*** s in 3 years. Two blackthorns and a glass shard. Unless you have steel tyres you will occasionally puncture, it’s a trade off between convenience, weight and comfort.
-
I ride with HS440 on my bike
Is that the Marathon Plus?
Yes. Marathon Plus are they. I'm not sure what you mean by wooden? I will admit I've ridden faster tyres but keep these pumped to max psi and they are pretty usable and not that slow. And they are reliably boring in keeping the air on the inside of the tyre too.
-
"they are reliably boring in keeping the air on the inside of the tyre too."
....... and that is all I ask of a tyre !
Mind you I could have done with spikes this morning....... :)
-
I ride with HS440 on my bike
Is that the Marathon Plus?
Yes. Marathon Plus are they. I'm not sure what you mean by wooden? I will admit I've ridden faster tyres but keep these pumped to max psi and they are pretty usable and not that slow. And they are reliably boring in keeping the air on the inside of the tyre too.
I'm with Paul. I can't think of a more uncomfortable tyre than the Marathon Plus (and its workalike, the Bontrager Elite Hardcase, whose name already tells you you need a bum of cast iron to ride on it). 99.9999 per cent puncture proof it surely is. But then so is the most comfortable tyre I know, the 60x622 Schwalbe Big Apple, a distant cousin of the Marathon, 99.9999 per cent puncture proof. I know which one I'd rather ride on.
Trivia: The Big Apple is supposedly part of the Marathon range, but I doubt the relationship is close enough to feature in the frontispiece of a Church of England Bible as forbidden consanguinity.
Come the the spring or the summer, you could experiment with lower pressures in the Marathon Plus and gain a margin of comfort.
-
I think it's more likely the time spent getting the tyres on and off the wheel that is going to be the real problem rather than getting the wheels out of the frame :D
I will admit that the folding Schwalbe Marathon Supreme Evo have been a delight for me in all three flavours I use (700c by 35, 29 by 1.6, and 26 by 1.75) ... I still use Continental GP 4000 II's on my road bike though ... and its the Schwalbes that I can take on and off without using levers of any sort. I only really ride on "Pavement", although on some of the back roads it can be a bit broken and gravel strewn. In the last 4 of 5 years I think I've had 3 punctures, all on my road bike, caused by glass, blackthorn and mussel shell. I think it was only the blackthorn that caused a puncture in the contis, the other two punctures were in the tyres supplied with the Giant Defy
-
"they are reliably boring in keeping the air on the inside of the tyre too."
....... and that is all I ask of a tyre !
All you ask?
I'm not saying I don't consider it, but it isn't even in my top three.
-
Yes. Marathon Plus are they. I'm not sure what you mean by wooden?
I mean you take all the advantages of a hundred years development in pneumatics and throw most of it away by making a solid tread and stiff sidewalls.
Seriously - If they suit you great, like I said I know someone who rides on nothing else. I put comfort at the top of mu list (Within reason) on a typical 10 hour ride, I'd rather spend 10 min fixing a puncture than 9 hours less comfortable than I could be. The reality is it's one puncture every several hundred hours riding. That comfort comes from the tyres more than anything else (It says something similar in the Thorn manual) in turn that's largely a factor of their ability to deform and recover, which in turn is a combination of pressure and flexibility... I've seen rolling resistance tests for the standard Marathon and the Plus, it's about 20% higher despite them having the same tread compound, that difference can only come from the stiffness.
There have been huge improvements in tyres over the last twenty years, you can get big 35mm+ tyres that roll as well as the race 25's did then and still puncture less often than old tractor tyres. Given the choice of a 70's bike on modern tyres or a new bike on 70's tyres I'd choose the former.
-
I'm with Paul. I can't think of a more uncomfortable tyre than the Marathon Plus (and its workalike, the Bontrager Elite Hardcase, whose name already tells you you need a bum of cast iron to ride on it). 99.9999 per cent puncture proof it surely is. But then so is the most comfortable tyre I know, the 60x622 Schwalbe Big Apple, a distant cousin of the Marathon, 99.9999 per cent puncture proof. I know which one I'd rather ride on.
Trivia: The Big Apple is supposedly part of the Marathon range, but I doubt the relationship is close enough to feature in the frontispiece of a Church of England Bible as forbidden consanguinity.
Come the the spring or the summer, you could experiment with lower pressures in the Marathon Plus and gain a margin of comfort.
I had a pair of Big Apple on my 26" bike, and punctured them both within a season. My wife (half my weight) now had those transferred to her 26" and she has had one puncture since- although they've been mounted for years as she is only an occasional 'pop down the shops or ride around the park with the kids' kind of gal!
I replaced the Big Apples with the same sized Marathon Plus on the 26", and have probably ridden around 2000km without incident since fitting.
To be honest, now you mention it, when I bought my 28" Winora with Rohloff, it had 32-622 Marathons on it, which I found very uncomfortable on anything other than smooth roads. But these were quite worn out, and the seller gave me a set of used 40-622 with reasonable wear still in them which were a big improvement in comfort, but still narrower than those 42-622 on my 28" derailleur bike.
I think there is much to be said for a wider tyre adding comfort. The German bike club ADFC have long recommended good balloon tyres as generally more comfortable (and far cheaper) than bikes with most entry/mid range suspension systems- and I have to say that my Winora Labrador with Suntour NCX suspension fork is not noticeably more comfortable than my similar sized derailleur bike on those slightly wider marathons. While a small statistical sample, I've not been convinced that the suspension fork is a must have if I were putting together a custom bike. Good tyre choice might not only save money but make more sense for longer term comfort riding.