Author Topic: Gear dilemma  (Read 3210 times)

phopwood

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Gear dilemma
« on: February 10, 2013, 07:11:36 pm »
Hi,

I have a bit of a gear choice dilemma. 

I have a Sherpa using standard MTB gears, 9 speeds cassete on the back 11 - 34 and 22 - 32 - 44 on the front.  This give me a great range, but the cassette on the back needs replacing and the hub is on its way out but serviceable, but the rest is good.  I could get a new hub and cassette easy enough, that is not a problem, I can even rebuild the wheel.

Or I was thinking of going down the Rohloff route I like the internal hub idea low maintenance, easy changing, all the gears in one place and enough gears to keep everyone happy. 

But now I have just read all about the Nuvinci hub, this will give me a more limited range, but I could leave the front shifter on and have two chain rings, but that goes away from all gears in one place, but there is no steps in the gears, now this appeals.

oh just look at all the buts in this post and I am sure you understand my dilemma.

I don't ever intend to tour around the world, I may do a few days away from home but it would be unlikely that I would carry that much stuff, but I might.

What would you do, and I know it is more about me and my needs but I am interested in your opinion.

Peter

ZeroBike

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2013, 07:18:16 pm »
The Sherpa is a derailleur bike meaning that its not designed to have a Rohloff fitted.

When I was having my Sherpa specced up at Thorn I did ask about the possibility of having a Rohloff retro fitted and the advice was simply, "don't".

The guys at Thorn only recommend having a Rohloff fitted to a Rohloff specific frame and unfortunately the Sherpa is not a Rohloff specific frame.






phopwood

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 07:24:39 pm »
Did they give any specifics as to why, I don't want to compromise the frame in anyway, I know that the sherpa has vertical drop outs, so for a hub gear a chain tensioner would be required, but the kits I was looking at from Germany are for vertical drop outs and has all the parts in it. I also know that some frames are designed for hub gear.

Peter

ZeroBike

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 07:32:57 pm »
Did they give any specifics as to why, I don't want to compromise the frame in anyway, I know that the sherpa has vertical drop outs, so for a hub gear a chain tensioner would be required, but the kits I was looking at from Germany are for vertical drop outs and has all the parts in it. I also know that some frames are designed for hub gear.

Peter

I dont think the cable routing is correct for a Rohloff on a Sherpa frame. You would have to add a chain tensioner as you dont have an eccentric bottom bracket on a Sherpa which would make the chain more prone to slipping off.  

They don't recommend it because your going to be spending around £1000 on something that will be sub par.  If you can find £1000 for a hub then you should be able to find another £500 for the correct frame.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 07:35:02 pm by ZeroBike »

jags

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2013, 08:02:57 pm »
Ah look all the rohloff boys will tell you yes go with hub ,not me stick to what you have Like how many gears do you want  even need , my sherpa serves me well with more or less the same set up as yourself .
i could spin a 36x17 all day long, ;) so for me build another wheel with a nice 9 speed hub you know it maks sense.

Danneaux

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2013, 08:17:01 pm »
Hi Peter!

If I may paraphrase, it sounds as if you're now at a drivetrain crossroads due to wear and attrition and view this as a good opportunity to explore some drive alternatives for your Sherpa frame.

If I've summarized fairly (apologies if I didn't!), then you have some alternatives:

1) Our very own rualexander did one of the nicest Rohloff conversions I've ever seen, and he managed it eventually without use of a chain tensioner. A truly professional job, it looks as if it came straight from the designer's drawing board that way. You can see some photos of it and a bit of description here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3235.0

2) You may wish to see if another kind of IGH (Internally-Geared Hub) will fill your needs for less money. Shimano offer the Nexus and Alfine hub gears in several varieties including 8- and 11-speeds and a variety of included brakes, but unlike the Rohloff, their steps are not even and there's some sizable gaps/jumps in progression as you go through the range. This can be split with a hybrid system (i.e. chain tensioner, front mech and two chainrings), but the results are not as good as one would hope, due to the gaps in the range and resulting duplicates. I've charted some, and the results for a Nexus/Alfine hybrid are generally messy.

3) Summarizing my own view of the NuVinci, the stepless shifting holds great intellectual appeal, but in practice friends who have them have found many of the changes are either too fine to feel or they miss the reference points provided by steps. In other words, they found its greatest strength to be a weakness for them. For me, I would find it convenient but lacking in overall range. That is my own opinion, but in truth, it seems the user's happiness depends on their particular use. Many commuters seem especially happy with them.

4) Your consideration of a hybrid gearing system (there's several possibilities, but here we're considering mostly an IGH rear hub with a front mech and a couple chainrings) is spot-on to my thinking before owning a Rohloff-hubbed Nomad. Andre tried patiently and at times valiantly to educate me, but I coudn't wrap my mind fully around the concept of Rohloff as-is, coming to that world from 35 years' worth of derailleurs, primarily in half-step shifting configurations.

In truth (by the numbers), you can make the world's best half-step shifting arrangement with a Rohloff. A really nice setup would be a 17T cog on the rear and 36/38T chainrings up front. Imagine -- a 28-speed half-step with essentially no chainline issues, and beautiful split around 7% between gears. Incredible.

The trouble is (again, as Andre pointed out to me from the beginning), hybridizing a Rohloff is not the best use of a Rohloff's strengths:
• You're back to a chain tensioner (really a rear derailleur that only tensions the chain and doesn't "shift" anything) and...
• Small 10T or 11T pulleys that cause the chain to wrap back on itself sharply, introducing greater wear and cleaning hassle compared to the single-speedlike chainline of the Rohloff.
• It is hard to find a proper half-step front derailleur these days; moreso if the 'ring difference is only a couple teeth. As a result, you'd have to grind and reprofile a road derailleur that merely "came close" to your needs.
• Then, you've got the issues of two chainrings, neither of which is on the perfect 54mm Rohloff-recommended chainline, and that introduces more wear and friction.
• And, while I never found it particularly troublesome even in desert dust so long as I used mudguards and generous mudflaps, those pulleys are vulnerable to picking up dirt, debris, and being fouled in the woods by sticks and such.

None of those concerns obtain with a stock Rohloff-only installation that uses some means other than a spring-loaded tensioner to keep the chain properly tensioned.

Before getting my Rohloff, I was really concerned about the gearing. Would the steps be too wide? Would I terribly miss the logarithmic gearing of my der mechs (wider steps between gears in the low range, narrow steps at the upper end)? What about overall range?

Since half-steps are hard to configure with modern wide-range front derailleurs and 9-speed gearing, my first adaptation was to the crossover 9-speed gearing on Sherpa. It wasn't my familiar 5-, 6-, or 7-speed half-step. I went through three cassettes before I got it right for myself, ending up with a 12-36 at the rear and 22/32/44 up front. With chainline considerations and one duplicate gear in the mix, I effectively had only 13-speeds out of 27 theoretically available, and it required a lot of double-shifting to get any next available gear in the progression. By the time I actually found my desired gear, my momentum had dropped off to where it wasn't quite right.

By contrast, the switch to the Rohloff gave me 14 distinct and usable speeds, no chainline concerns (and no looking back inside my right thigh to see which cassette cog the chain was on), no duplicates, and the same range.

I started with a 40x17, and found I never used the upper two gears and wished I had two that were lower to match the final setup on Sherpa. It was the lowest "Rohloff-legal" combo at the time.

A switch to Rohloff's newly approved 36x17 has transformed the Nomad positively for my use. I no longer have the two unused upper gears, I picked up two below, and all the combos in the middle fell spot-on the familiar for me -- even the direct-drive Gear 11 cruising gear and the next-most used combo just above and below it. The 1-7 low range has gears from 15-33 gear-inches, and it truly serves as a Low Range for me. It is quieter when coasting and noisier when pedaling and suits me fine. Gears 8-14 are my Most Used Upper Range, silent or nearly so in pedaling and louder when freewheeling. The upper range goes from 37-80 gear-inches. I spend most of my time in 55" (direct-drive Gear 11), or 62 (Gear 12) as I do on all my half-step derailleur bikes; they're just my favorite gears when combined with my fast, light 110-120RPM cadence. My Headwind Gear is my old favorite on the other bikes at 42 gear-inches (gear 9, still in the Upper Range).

Life is Good for me now with the Rohloff 'cos the 36x17 is closer to my old, favored half-step arrangements in terms of having quick access to my old-most-favored combos. I find the twist-shifter can cover as many as 7 cogs in one of my twists (I can approach it from inline or from the end like a doorknob on my T-bar setup), and when I need/want big steps at the low end, they're just a multi-shift Big Twist away. Finer steps might be nice at the upper end, but to be honest they're just fine given my range tops out at 80". At my preferred 110-120RPM cadence, that 80" high is good for speeds of 26.4-28.8mph/42.2-46.1kph; plenty fast for me on level ground. I usually cruise flat, windless roads at 17-21mph/27-37kph in my 55" gear at the same 110-120RPM. Anything faster (usually downhill), I coast.

I don't really know anything about your riding style, Paul, but your choice of any gearing and setup will depend in part on whether you're a masher or a spinner. Mashers (low-cadence cyclists) can usually better tolerate wider steps between gears and don't much mind varying their cadence as required. Hummingbirds like myself need finer gear steps to keep in our preferred rev ranges.

To summarize the above...

1) IGH drivetrains require much less regular maintenance than do derailleurs.
2) Some IGH drivetrains are less suited to touring than others, due to overall range and steps between gears.
3) Some IGH divetrains are less suited to hybrid gearing setups than others (see 2 above).
4) Generally, the added complication of hybrid gearing detracts from the low-maintenance advantages of the IGH. In exchange, you can sometimes (Rohloff) get a wholebuncha gears in a superb pattern with easy access.
5) If you can find the high/low gears you need and the steps are where you expect them, you'll likely be happy with a switch to an IGH drivetrain; less so if you can't.
6) Your use, pedaling style, and terrain will also determine your Happiness Quotient™ with an IGH conversion.

I hope something in the above will help. For my two cents' worth, if I were in your position (and I once was), I might consider a rualexander-like conversion of the Sherpa and see how it went. If I found myself missing some gears or the steps were still too wide, then it could be easily hybridized with a rear tensioner, a modified front mech and shifter, and a second chainring. If the whole thing proved unsatisfactory, then there's the option of selling-on the Rohloff stuff and converting to derailleurs again or transferring all the components to a Rohloff-specific Thorn frame with eccentric BB and calling it good, selling-on the Sherpa frame.

Hope something in this helps.

Best,

Dan.
[Edit for typos and for some reason I wrote Peter as Paul.  :-\]
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:20:06 am by Danneaux »

phopwood

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 08:18:50 pm »
Thanks both for your input, yes derailleur gears are simple and easy to fix and yes a Rohloff hub would set me back nearly £800 for the hub and parts to build the wheel.  The cost of a new cassette and hub is about £70 + the cost of the spokes.

Peter.

ZeroBike

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 08:31:26 pm »
If the whole thing proved unsatisfactory, then there's the option of selling-on the Rohloff stuff and converting to derailleurs again or transferring all the components to a Rohloff-specific Thorn frame with eccentric BB and calling it good, selling-on the Sherpa frame.

The only downside to transferring the parts to a Rohloff specific frame at a later date is that you don't get the amazing warranty that you would have got had you bought a complete Rohloff Thorn bike.  The warranty itself is worth paying a premium for.  In a nutshell, if your Rohloff breaks in Africa or Asia or anywhere in the world, rather than buying a new hub (£800) or sending the hub to Rohloff in Germany where it will have to go through customs on each leg of its journey, instead Thorn will send you out a brand new complete wheel, free of charge,  and you then send back the broken hub and that's it as far as you are concerned.

phopwood

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 08:38:53 pm »
Dan,

As always a very informative reply, how do you do that.  I was thinking the same thing about a Nuvinci my self, the lack of an index is a blessing and would also take some getting used too.

I had considered an Alfine 11 speed hub, and I think the range would be usable for me, but I would like to try one in person on a bike, I would like to feel one in real life, I rode a Rohloff hub'ed some time ago and it did feel special.

My Brompton has a standard 3 speed hub, and I do like internal gears.  That said I have been riding Shimarno geared MBT geared bikes for a long time, and other than the odd mishap with a rock and the rear derailleur they have been very good with just basic maintenance.

With my current setup i do a regular 20 mile circular rolling hilly route and always stay in the top chain ring and just use the 9 speeds on the back, but when you work out the gearing on a regular MBT gears as you say there are not that many individual gears.

I had also considered going the SRAM 11 speed and just having 2 rings up front but the cost is getting close to a decent hub gear.

Peter

ians

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 08:40:37 pm »
Oh wow Dan... I was just about to chip in when the red warning came indicating another post had arrived whilst I was writing.  I'm glad I stopped to look.   I salute you as master of the comprehensive reply.

Peter - I was just going to say that the bicycle is a surprisingly forgiving machine (seeing some of the ways they're put together and still work) - and you can do what you like, to a large extent.  A couple of years ago I put an 8 speed Alfine hub in an old On-One Inbred (vertical drop out frame) with a single 34T chainwheel and Surly chain tensioner.  It worked extremely well.

I did this because, having had the benefit of a Rohloff hub for a couple of years on my RST, I decided that life is too short for cleaning and adjusting derailleurs.

Good luck.

ian




Danneaux

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2013, 08:47:00 pm »
Quote
The only downside to transferring the parts to a Rohloff specific frame at a later date is that you don't get the amazing warranty that you would have got had you bought a complete Rohloff Thorn bike.  The warranty itself is worth paying a premium for.
Zero, I completely agree with you. Thorn's warranty coverage is second to none, and they really do stand behind it. No matter the part or product, there is always some failure rate, no matter how small or infrequent; it is inherent in any production process. If you happen to be one of the Unlucky Ones at the time...ah! That's when a wonderful warranty response and a company that stands behind it is worth every single penny of the investment, and Thorn surely stood behind me in my time of need. Outstanding!

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

All the best,

Dan. (...who is happy there are so many drivetrain possibilities available these days)

jags

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 08:47:33 pm »
Don't do it Peter it's not all about ease off cleaning   or having every gear under the sun ,
that little flik of a leaver into your rear cog knowing you picked he right one and that clunk as the chain settles into the teeth ready for anything you care to throw at it ,man don't do it you will never get that feeling with a hub gear dont do it man  8)

Danneaux

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 08:50:22 pm »
 ;D I love my derailleur-geared bikes too, jags! One not less than the other -- it's all good! My rando bike just wouldn't feel the same without its half-step derailleur gearing, and for the very reasons you describe!

All the best,

Dan. (...who loves all his Bicycle Children equally)

jags

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2013, 09:03:28 pm »
Hi Dan ah buddy i'm sticking with my derailleur no matter what it served me well over the years. nothing wrong with rohloff or any other hub gears but you got to admit the thrill of shifting the sweet sound of that big ring when your going like the clappers emm i love it.


phopwood

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Re: Gear dilemma
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2013, 09:08:37 pm »
Jaga,

Stop it, I now want to go out and spray some degreaser on my derailleur and say sorry to it.  You are of cause right there is nothing wrong with derailleur gears mine are just a little warn out and need some TLC.

Peter