Author Topic: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern  (Read 5258 times)

Danneaux

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Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« on: September 13, 2012, 04:29:24 am »
Hi All!

I'm still running my Nomad on the original chain lube, and have had fun looking at my chainring and cog tooth-wear patterns.

I'm running a 40x17 setup, and all teeth on the 17t cog seem to be marked evenly and equally, as I might expect with the even-odd combination.

The 40t chainring is also wearing as I expected, with every other tooth (the ones that engage the inner link plates) showing contact.

The 40x17 is a bit of an experiment for me; I'm interested to see how the larger, even-odd tooth setup fares against others' 38x16 even-even setup, as Sheldon would have endorsed for maximum wear (and both the preceding schemes opposite a new trend toward odd-odd setups as put forth by Idworx. They have special odd-toothed chainrings made for them by Middleburn and Heggemann, and claim (Google-translated to English)...
Quote
Idworx Hegge Mann chainring 39/43 tooth
The developed idworx Hegge Mann Longlife chain blade made of hardened stainless steel with unequal number of teeth has an unprecedented longevity.

Idworx Middleburn 39/41/43 tooth chainrings
The exclusive Idworx produced Middleburn chainring from hardened aluminum and finished with durable coating has special thanks to the unequal number of teeth a very long life.
These chainrings are listed under Rohloff's "Tuning Parts", here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url

I'll be looking to see what kind of life I'll be getting out of a larger cog that has every tooth engaged; perhaps the larger size will offset the evenly-distributed wear.

As for the chainring...I'm a bit undecided. It appears I would double my chinring life before reversal if I am careful to advance my chain by one tooth when hooks start to appear...or perhaps periodically. When all teeth are hooked on the same side, then I could reverse the 'ring for the remainder of its life as usual.

Have others with 40x17t combinations gone this route, or have you left the chain indexed on the same (every other) teeth before reversing? How about the even-even 38x16 folks? Ideas? Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any and all input; I value and respect your thoughts and opinions.

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 09:23:10 am »
Hi All!

Looking at my own photo above and examining the chainring with a 30-power side-illuminated loup, the wear patterns aren't as obvious as they first appeared to me.  If you look closely at the photo, you'll see the side-marking of every other tooth is indeed caused by the inner links...but the drive wear on every valley and every advancing tooth face correlates with every roller, as one would expect under drive load/torque -- right on the leading face of each engaging-leading chainring tooth.

Hmm.

Sheldon Brown made his case for even numbers on drivetrain sprockets (chainring, cog) here:
http://sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

....Bu Surly makes their case for odd numbers ( http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/spew_single-speed_gearing_101 ), saying...
Quote
...since the wear of the chain on your single speed’s ring and cog isn’t shared by other rings and cogs, as it would be on a multi-geared bike, going with larger rings and cogs spreads the wear over more teeth, so they last longer. Not such a big deal if you’re using our stainless rings, but with aluminum rings, the smaller sizes will need to be replaced more often than the larger ones.[no argument there -- Dan.] To get the longest life out of your ring and cog, use odd-tooth sizes. [Ah! This last part is interesting! -- Dan].

Hmm, again. It sounds like they're advocating large-diameter, odd-odd gearsets (chainrings and cogs). Sheldon would have readily agreed large diameters reduce individual wear, but the odd-odd endorsement would likely put him at uh, odds with Surly.

I'm beginning to think perhaps a 39x17 would make more sense from the standpoint of most even wear distribution (nevermind the recommended/warranteed Rohloff ratios) by virtue of the "hunting tooth" odd-odd engineering principle, just as Netherlands bike maker Idwork endorses (not necessarily the ratio I mentioned above, but the principle).

Reaching back to the days when I rebuilt automotive drivetrains and gearsets, I remember a “Hunting Tooth Gear Set” has tooth counts that are relatively prime (meaning they have no common factors). Any tooth on either gear contacts every tooth on the mating gear before encountering the same tooth again. As a result, wear is spread evenly over all teeth in the gearbox, resulting in maximum overall life. The name comes from any given gear tooth "hunting" through every meshing combination for its starting mate as the gears turn. hitting it once, then hunting again.

Now, the hunting tooth will have a certain frequency, which is...

gear mesh frequency/least common multiple of the numbers of teeth of the two gears

...often this is simply the product of the numbers of teeth, or close to it, which makes life a bit easier. I can remember when Ford got this wrong with some of their pickup trucks in the 1960s/1970s and it resulted in increased wear and a terrible droning at resonant speeds, typically at motorway cruising speeds. The hunting tooth frequency coincided with the vibration spectrum and you'd not only hear it...you could feel it by way of bone conduction. It was terribly annoying, but also had the odd effect of moving some people to spontaneous tears [<-- as a complete aside to this, various parts of the body do have a resonate frequency, and in the past, the US Army investigated this in experiments that weaponized low-frequency sound and noted a correlation between certain frequencies and loss of bladder or bowel control. There have been a number of studies related to the frequencies of human resonant vibrations as they relate to body parts and extraneous source stimulation; two interesting examples are here: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001SPIE.4317..469B ...and... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9306739 I suspect this may be why some cyclists simply cannot stand the flux-current-caused vibrations of bicycle dynohubs as they are transmitted through the handlebars from the front hub. See: http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/dynamos/theorie/index_en.html for an example].

My experience with hunting-tooth gear sets involved just that -- direct-mesh gearsets.  Bicycles are different, and couple their drivetrains with a roller-link chain of various lengths, depending on chainstay length, chainring/cog diameter, and wear (a link is often removed to compensate for chain stretch). Remember, chain links are removed in pairs -- inner and outer -- unless a half-link is employed, making the chain an odd-numbered chain. I'll have to ponder further the effects of even-odd chain link lengths with even-even, odd-odd, even-odd and odd-even tooth counts.

Those interested in a really good discussion of powertrain design would likely enjoy IPT's Industrial Trades Handbook: Power Transmission Systems, copyright 1988 by IPT Publishing & Training LTD, author Bruce M. Basaraba, ISBN13: 9780920855041, ISBN10: 0920855040. Unfortunately, it seems to be available only in a paper copy and not online.

Fun stuff for those an inquiring nature!

I look forward to seeing how my drivetrain wear progresses, how, and at what rate.

Best,

Dan. (who evidently doesn't have enough to do at 1:30AM and should be in bed, asleep...)
[Edit to correct typo in the ISBN10 number above]
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 07:37:55 am by Danneaux »

julk

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 11:31:07 am »
Dan,
An absorbing topic which may run for some time…

My first Thorn Rohloff had 38x16 and ran about 4000 miles before a thief removed it from a campsite overnight.
I had run a Rohloff chain on that one and there was no significant wear showing in the drivetrain.

I keep my chain reasonably clean and lubricated, but am not disturbed by the sight of some muck on it.

My replacement also had 38x16 but a Sram PC890 chain which I ran for less than 2000 miles before switching to a larger 43x21 combination and a new Rohloff chain. I was amazed at the wear showing on the 16 tooth sprocket when I took it off and can only attribute this to not using a Rohloff chain.

I ran the 43x21 combination until last week, about 1500 miles, and there is again no visible wear on the components, although in this case a significantly larger odd tooth number sprocket .
I have now gone to 40x17 and fitted a Hebie ChainGlider as championed by Andre - I will post separately on this one.
I have also fitted my last new Rohloff chain to this latest combination so that the chain case can get a true test from all new components.

I hope Rohloff are back to producing chains before this one wears out.
Julian

Andre Jute

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 02:08:18 pm »
I just don't do the mileage you guys do, so I have little to contribute on observed wear, and I'm extremely busy launching new books at this time of the year, so I don't have time to get into the intricacies of the interesting "hunting gears", though I passed Dan's note above about gears and resonances to my protege Dakota Franklin, an HPV engineer, as something she might want to use in one of her novels about motor and bicycle racers.

But Julian's 6400+ kilometres on a Rohloff chain, which was still good when stolen, indicates to me that the Rohloff chain is a better chain. I got 4506km out of a KMC X8 inside a chain case all its life. I know, I know, by the standards of some here, that's a half-life chain, but in my previous experience that is a 250% chain! Cheaper chains, SRAM and Shimano, lasted under 2000 to well under 3000km, and took the Nexus grade aluminium cogs and chainrings with them. Maybe mashers like me are just harder on transmissions than spinners. I look forward to Julian's ChainGlider report.

However, the cheap steel Amar chain set my Rohloff bike arrived with, by my special order (standard fitment unless otherwise specified is Sugino-made Mighty), was clearly good to wear out another X8 or even two; it was taken off when I got a chance to buy a Sugino Cospea (labelled Stronglight) crankset I liked the looks of at a sale, and decided that was a good point to go over to the stainless Surly chainring I had laid in.

The Rohloff cog showed no visible wear at 4506km.

My setup throughout has been 38x16. I have a spare Rohloff 16T cog (my manufacturer and dealer, being German, just flatly refused to supply parts outside the warranty regime -- by their standards Andy Blance is a scofflaw!) so it isn't likely I shall go to odd teeth soon.

In addition, I've been conducting an experiment to see whether you can run a chain permanently on its factory lube inside a Chainglider. This experiment is now over 1300km, and all that has happened is that the factory lube has become a bit more liquid. The experiment will continue until I observe that the chain wears either the chainring (unlikely as it is stainless) or the cog abnormally fast, or of course that the chain wears out, by "stretch" measurement, short of my established baseline for a KMC X8 of 4500km, or, of course, if the lube has visibly broken down, perhaps by feeling metal fragments in it. We'll see.

To summarise the experience of one Rohloff transmission, inside a chaincase all its life: At 4506km a new KMC X8 chain was fitted. 16T cog shows no wear, retained. Amar 38T pressed steel chainring shows no wear, replaced for cosmetics with Surly 38T stainless chainring. Since 4506km, experiment with only factory lube on chain, currently 1300km old (total 5800km), no wear on Surly chainring, Rohloff cog, or chain, lube holding up but changing in consistency, possibly breaking down. (From memory, Sheldon Brown said that the factory lube would be good for 700 miles, which is around 1100km. No idea where he got his information from.)

***

This 38x16 setup, which I can't change without quite a bit of expense and hardly-worn components retired, is a bit unfortunate now I have an electric motor, which has moved my entire riding style up a few gears because that's where the motor seems happiest and most efficient use of the battery is made too (subject to a huge amount of guesswork -- I should really obtain either metering or a smaller battery, say from a Bosch 36V drill, so I can tell when it runs out how far I've gone). But, largely on subjective experience, I'm not at all certain a Rohloff is justified on an electrified bike. A Shimano 8 speed would probably do for everyone except a mountain goat.

***

Dan, Surly hasn't made a case at all for odd-odd cog setups. They merely made a flat statement. Nor has Idworx offered us an argument, merely a statement that their odd-odd cogs last longer (and so you would expect, given their provenance and price!). Sheldon offered a carefully reasoned argument for his even-even cog choice. You offer a relative primes argument (which naturally leads to odd numbers) for your "hunting gear" solution. As an aside, I'm impressed as I'm familiar with the power of relatives primes from the modular math used to make the only unbreakable codes. But I'd like to hear the Surly and Idworx cases, if indeed they have cases and aren't just parroting engineers whose "hunting gear"/relative primes argument they don't grasp.

However, I'm just wondering — but without the time to work through the math (Jim, help!) — if the number of links on the chain, that is, the bicycle's wheelbase, wouldn't also matter in the hunting gear argument.

Andre Jute
I'm not letting on it gives me a headache. My excuse reason for not doing the math is that I'm an artist.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 02:31:04 pm by Hobbes »

triaesthete

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 02:23:55 pm »
Hi Dan
expect the PC830 chain to wear at a disproportionally high rate because it does not have SRAM's best hardening. All the 8 series chains 850 and higher have better hardening and the 850 is only a little more expensive than  the 830.
I bought two 830s and on brand new 38x16 ring and sprocket they were  stretched by more than 0.75% within 100km each :o  The 850 that replaced them has less wear in 500km and similar usage (very wet and muddy offroad mainly, but lots of lubing).
I think a chain made of the proverbial knicker elastic will wear any tooth material unusually fast and skew the experiment. Maybe costly Rohloff chains had really good hardening, but the trouble from a marketing perspective is invisibility to the customer.

Happy testing
Ian

JimK

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 02:49:36 pm »
However, I'm just wondering if the number of links on the chain, that is, the bicycle's wheelbase, wouldn't also matter in the hunting gear argument.

That does seem correct. The chain seems to work just like another gear in a series. The least common multiple that will run the show is the LCM of all three numbers - the teeth on the sprocket and on the chainring but also the number of links on the chain. Of course the number of links on the chain is always even.

If a bike had a 40 tooth chainring and 16 tooth sprocket, and the chain had a number of links divisible by 4...

I have to admit, though. This whole business about chains and chainrings etc. just messes up my head. I only have maybe 4000 miles on my Nomad. Just because I am neurotic, I am on my fourth chain. I want to reduce the wear on my sprocket and chainring and chains are cheap enough. My idea was that I would rotate through the chains. Back in July, after the Erie Canal ride, I took off chain 3 that was all coated with towpath dust and put on chain 4, another KMC Z610HX. Wow, what a lot of racket! Now, a few hundred miles later, the system is mostly quiet, but still clatters a bit at high torque. So my sprocket and chainring must have worn a bit to be so grumpy about a new chain. Probably all that towpath dust, held in place by the wax chain lube. I need a lot more experience before I have any sort of clue about this stuff!
 

Danneaux

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 01:32:11 am »
Julian, Andre, Ian, and Jim,

Thank you all for your thoughts, reflections, and opinions. Really, one could not hope for better resources than those offered by the members of this Forum.

I hope this topic does grow legs and continue awhile, though reports may be sporadic and widely spaced as we accumulate distance (it may take awhile to reach any firm conclusions...at the price of components, that's...okay!).

As an aside to Andre and Jim in particular...yes! As noted in my second post, the length of chain used and whether it has an even or odd number of links will likely matter...and change if a chain is used long enough for a link to be removed or a half-link substituted for a full one.

So, let's keep in touch as our experiences progress, and put out an open call for others who have not yet joined in to do so. Collectively, we're likely to gather some good data as we go along.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 02:44:23 am by Danneaux »

JimK

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Re: Even-odd Rohloff chainring wear pattern
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 01:48:57 am »
Wow, I guess folks have been talking about half links but it didn't register... now I do a little searching - ha, so chains CAN have an odd number of links! Oh, yeah, there is a 15 tooth sprocket... one could have a 15 tooth sprocket and a 36 tooth chainring and if the chain length were divisible by 3!

BTW Dan, thanks for those links on the resonant frequency of the human body! What a wild world!