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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Re: Help - I'm confused about cranks
« Last post by martinf on May 01, 2024, 08:21:52 am »
Unlike MickeG I prefer to have the chainline more or less spot on.

I'm still on square-taper cranks, and have a fair number of spare cranks and different length bottom bracket units to play with in order to get the chainline roughly right.

If necessary I then fine-tune with spacer washers to about 1 or 2 mm precision (using either the eyeball method or a builder's straight edge). This is easier to do before fitting the chain.

With most of the bottom bracket units I have I can fit 1 to 2 mm of spacer under the fixed cup to space the chainline outwards.

On most of the cranks I have it is possible to use washers or spacers between crank and chainring to change the chainline up to about 4 mm max.

Either outwards if the ring is outboard of the crank or inwards if the ring is inboard. This generally means using chainring bolts meant for double or triple chainring setups rather than single rings.

The process is much easier with a Thorn frame. On these frames no need for spacers - I can slide the eccentric sideways to fine tune the chainline.
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If you can't use the horizontal dropout to achieve chain tension, there is a simple bodge that I use on my one remaining full size bike without a Chainglider:

https://surlybikes.com/parts/singleator

The bike on which I use this is an old VTT from the early 1990's designed for derailleurs, it has vertical dropouts and no means of fitting an eccentric bottom bracket without major surgery. I use this as a visitor bike at our island flat. It has a Nexus premium 8 hub, but the system would work just as well with a Rohloff.

I fitted the Singleator pushing up on the chain, with just enough tension to stop the chain falling off. So the extra friction caused by the one Singleator pulley is not really noticeable, in theory it should be half the friction from a normal dérailleur, maybe less as the chain doesn't bend very much.

The downsides for me are :

- one pulley to clean (trivial).
- not possible to fit a Chainglider (a nuisance because this means more chain maintenance).

There are other brands of one-pulley tensioner that would probably work just as well.

Even an old derailleur would work (done this in the past), but it was more of a hassle to set up and clean.

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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Re: Help - I'm confused about cranks
« Last post by AlexRa on May 01, 2024, 07:50:19 am »
Thanks so much for this. Super helpful and very clear.

For various complicated reasons my BB choices are quite constrained. To achieve chain tension I will be using this:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/trickstuff-excentriker/

Basically in need a way to achieve chain tensioning.
Given I’m already committed to a certain BB, that accepts a specific spindle size, I need to find chainset that fits the BB, rather than the other way around.

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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Re: Help - I'm confused about cranks
« Last post by mickeg on May 01, 2024, 01:37:49 am »
Chainline on a Rohloff, I assume this is on a frame with conventional 135mm dropout spacing, not an extra wide hub for a fat bike.

I am not sure the numbers, so I will only talk concepts.

The Rohloff has two different splined sprocket carriers available, one is slim and one is normal.  Thus, there are two options you have for chainline, depending on which you use.

You said 24mm bottom bracket spindle.  I am guessing that is 124mm square taper bottom bracket.

Cranksets are generally much more expensive than bottom bracket spindles, so it might be more affordable to pick a crankset you like and then buy the bottom bracket that has the spindle length you need.  Finding a crankset that works with your bottom bracket might cost more in the end.

It is easy to buy cranksets for double chainrings.  If you get one of those, you can use the chainring in the outer position, or you can use the chainring on the inner position and use a bashguard in the outer position.  I have my chainring on the inner position, bashguard on outer position, photo attached.

Make sure your bottom bracket works with the frame you have, for example my Rohloff is on a frame that has a 73mm bottom bracket shell, not the more common 68mm.  Thus, I had to shop for a 73mm bottom bracket with the spindle length I needed. 

Rohloff hubs work with 8 speed chains, but if you have a 9 or 10 speed crankset, that will work with an 8 speed chain.  I have built up several bikes, both derailleur and Rohloff.  And a couple have 10 speed cranksets and 8 speed chains.  On a Rohloff, no problem with that at all.  (That is a minor incompatibility if a front derailleur is used with an 8 speed chain and 10 speed crank, but that is not your situation.)

I am running a chainline that is about 5mm off of ideal on my Rohloff bike.  This is by choice.  I wanted my Rohloff bike to have the same Q factor (pedal width spacing) that my derailleur bikes have, thus I wanted a bottom bracket spindle that was 10mm narrower than I was supposed to have for the ideal Rohloff hub chainline.  I could have used a spacer to push the bottom bracket off center, but chose not to, that would have reduced my chainline error.

That 5mm chainline error is not a problem at all.  I do have greater wear on one side of my sprocket teeth than the other side, likely the same with chainring, but it is not a bid deal.  When you consider that it does not really matter what gear a derailleur bike is in, they will always have some chainline error, I decided not to worry about a 5mm error when I built up my Rohloff bike a decade ago.

I know I did not specifically give you an answer on what to buy, but instead laid out the concepts.  Good luck with your build.
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There's no reason you shouldn't do it if
-- the little ovoid nub on the Rohloff fits in the channel without play
-- there is enough steel there to resist deforming the track end
-- you can arrange chain tension some other way.

The obvious way, on a Thorn forum anyway, to achieve the last requirement is to find an eccentric bottom bracket shell to fit inside the one on the Surly, plus a bottom bracket of small enough diameter to fit the eccentric bottom bracket shell. Otherwise you're going to be up for welding in an oversize bottom bracket shell: ouch.

However, there's another way, often used on bikes with track ends like yours and Shimano Nexus and other hub gearboxes, called a "t-nut", which allows the axle to slide in the track frame-end (what you call a "horizontal dropout"), thereby tensioning the chain. Bernd Rohloff didn't like this, presumably because it didn't meet his engineering standards, but a cyclist in a bind finds a way. I've never seen it done on a Rohloff but I have two other bikes with this arrangement, and it works, albeit not as conveniently and precisely as the expensively over-engineered Rohloff house design for sliding axle hangers, which Rohloff put in the public domain. Rohloff axle nuts are on a low-torque regime, so to provide positive location you might have to rough up the metal on the outside of the track ends a little (not inside the channel).

Note that chain tension, as long as it is on the loose side -- never, ever, on the tight side -- is less critical with a Rohloff than on any other hub gearbox I can think of. You're supposed to motivate a Rohloff with a much slacker chain than people cross-badging from derailleurs feel comfortable with. You may be able, depending on the exact dimensions of your bike, to arrange a correctly loose chain for all conditions of your fave chains with nothing more than a quick release half-link for even a full link. It seems to me worth a try.

Oh, for a time when even a small boy could understand and remember all the ins and outs of bicycles!
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The OEM axel plate fits fine in the horizontal drop out on my bike. It’s not a Rohloff specific dropout. But it fits. The bike is a steel frame Surly Cross Check. 
Is there any reason this won’t work and provide the required torque anchoring? 
Keen to do this as it means I could loose the long torque arm. 
(Also I know it will mean I need some other way of achieving chain tension).
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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Help - I'm confused about cranks
« Last post by AlexRa on April 30, 2024, 09:30:57 pm »
Hello all,
Building up a Rohloff bike. Long time Rohloff-er but fairly new to bike building.

Can someone help me with some info on crank compatibility? I've entered a worm hole of info about chain lines, chain sizes, and chain rings - and got confused. 

Here's what I've got. My Bottom Bracket takes a 24 mm spindle. I've got a Rohloff hub on the back. So I need to know what crankset is going to be compatible and give me the right chain line, and have a chain ring that is compatible with the 8 / 9 speed chain that Rohloff requires.

I'm sure this is quite obvious to more experience folk, but everything I find online seems to be wrong in some way. Am I being an idiot? Is this actually simpler than I think?

Any help much appreciated.
Thanks, Alex
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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Re: Smallest Chainring?
« Last post by Thomas777 on April 29, 2024, 12:16:37 pm »
My wife's  Ike does not have the threaded sprocket.
So after we had a discussion about the gearing my wife said she is fine with the current setup.  She said after riding from Ohio to the Rockies she would be stro g enough!
One less thing to carry!
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Was it you? / Melbourne Australia
« Last post by Mike Ayling on April 28, 2024, 11:16:31 pm »
I had just reached the platform of my local suburban railway station to catch a train to meet my regular riding group with my fortunately freshly washed sky blue Mercury with lots of Thorn decals when a fellow traveller recognised it as a Thorn and said he had a Raven with Rohloff! He had a slight British accent but just then the train arrived and we entered different carriages so the conversation ceased.
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Rohloff Internal Hub Gears / Re: Smallest Chainring?
« Last post by John Saxby on April 28, 2024, 03:19:59 pm »
Hi Tom,

A slight variation on the valuable detail above.  I hope this is useful:

In my tour North-to-South through the Rockies & to the Washington coast in 2016, I used a 17 x 36 combination on my Raven, with 26" wheels and 1.6" Marathon Supremes.  That gave me a gear-inch ration of 15.6 in my lowest gear.

There were a lot of hills on that tour, but they tended to be long (say, 25 kms) with a moderate grade (4-6%). If memory serves, I used my 1st gear only 4 times in about 2200 kms -- twice on the Icefields Parkway, once south of Canmore in Alberta, and once in the States, west of Montana (would have to check the detail.)

Each time I used low gear, it was for about a kilometre to reach to summit of a particular pass, and the climb was no problem.

As a comparison:  On a 5-day ride in the hill country NW of Ottawa in 2021, I used my low gear about 15 times in 175 kms -- the hills were steeper (usually around 8-10%) and shorter, and on the whole, more demanding than what I encountered in the West.

Good luck to you & Kathy, and enjoy!

John

 
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