Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: stevenalleyy on March 30, 2017, 03:54:12 pm
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Hi, I am buying a touring bike soon and I came across this Surly Troll on eBay linked below. Is the price of this bike worth it for the long term tourer I'm looking for? I want to travel as far as I can (at least six months at a time)
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW-CUSTOM-BUILT-SURLY-TROLL-BIKE-LARGE-/122407764716?hash=item1c801242ec%3Ag%3AGuUAAOSwx6pYqGTx
I'm new to cycling and I don't have much knowledge when it comes to bike specs etc. I also don't have a huge stash of cash, would it be appropriate to ask for discount? How much would you ask for?
Thanks for your time, all advice is much appreciated!
Steven
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First of all the Troll is a very good bike and many people have gone around the world on one. I think that one is a bit overpriced. But you are getting racks with it and you could convert it to a Rohloff if you wished.
You could contact them direct and if you were from them outwith eBay a discount would be possible as there would be no ebay/paypal fees .
Bob
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Thanks Bob, those are very good points. On their FB page it was on for 1600 so they have popped the price up a little bit probably to allow for eBay charges and or people asking for discount.
The racks new are 100 each so that is a big plus! If you were looking to buy this specific bike personally how much would you be aiming to spend?
https://www.evanscycles.com/ridgeback-expedition-2017-touring-bike-EV289256
This is an expedition bike more suited to my budget. A ridgeback expedition 2017 which had a good review from a long time tourer.
ThankS for the response 8)
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Is it the right size for you ;)
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I honestly don't know, for that money I would go down the second hand route. You could look at Surly Troll, Ogre ,ECR. Thorn Sherpa, Raven or Nomad all which would be within your budget. Personally I wouldn't consider the Ridge back but that's just me.
Bob
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Yes Rags it is :D haha I definitely checked that, actually I re checked the size about 5 times! Hahaha
Ok Bob thank you for the advice, hopefully someone else can chime in on the ridgeback and help me make a move on one of the two bikes! You are right, going second hand would be better, and much more cost effective :) thanks again,
Steven
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i'd get in touch with sjs and ask about a Deore spec sherpa, probably cheaper than that deore troll (i think it's way to much cash for the spec, Frame was around £500 that leaves a whoppng £1150 for components)
the racks at a £100 each are ott (i have them on my sherpa) you could get tubus on ebay.de in stainless for less, ie cosmo and nova
i'd love a troll and went through the Troll vs sherpa mindnumber, in the end i decided i wanted the best touring bike more than an awesome utility bike which for me is what the troll is
so far approx 8 years and no regrets
atb Bill
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Steven the sherpa with the new Tiagra 10 speed custom wheels would be hard to beat .it's built like a tank but super ride ,the only thing i didn't like about it was the front fork way to heavy for my liking ,but if your going to be doing heavy loaded touring then yeah it will never let you down..
best of luck whatever you go for spend wisely ;)
jags.
(anto)
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I had a Troll built up with a Rohloff and although it was very good I prefered a Thorn.
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Hi Steven, and welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!
Not meant in any way unkindly, but I've always taken to heart the old Packard (long retired American brand of luxury car) slogan, "Ask the man who owns one" when it comes to researching my buys.
Be it tents, sleeping bags, bicycles, cars, or appliances, those online user reviews and marque-specific forums can really give a fuller picture of how a product performs across a wide range of users in a variety of conditions over time. Sometimes, a premium product that is priced higher than competitors will get such uniformly good reviews as to reassure a potential buyer. Western Mountaineering sleeping bags are like that. :)
This being a Thorn-sponsored Forum, you're most likely to get steers toward Thorns here, and they're well worth considering. If a new one is a stretch, a number of used ones often appear in this season at fantastically low prices as people move on to new steeds before embarking on Spring/Summer tours. Our own Bikes For Sale board is a good first stop to see what's available: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?board=16.0 Also, Thorn's sister company, SJS Cycles, often runs specials on demo bikes and premium-condition used bikes. See: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?term=thorn&category_list=757
Thorn/SJS Cycles also sell a wide range of bikes on eBay, ranging from shop demos to serving as a broker for trade-ins. See: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/sjs_cycles/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686
I can echo Bill C's suggestion to take a good look at a high value Sherpa spec. They're incredibly versatile, good bikes that will see you through most touring challenges.
As for your other question...I also don't have a huge stash of cash, would it be appropriate to ask for discount? How much would you ask for?
...generally, when an item is listed on eBay at a "BuyItNow" price, there's no room for negotiation like there is when a seller offers the item with a "Or Best Offer" option. I always consider the "BuyItNow" price to be firm, as eBay actively discourages price negotiation or offsite haggling at the expense of auctions or listed prices.
Best of luck in your quest and all good wishes in your touring plans,
Dan.
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... you could get tubus on ebay.de in stainless for less, ie cosmo and nova
I don't know about the Nova but I have the Tubus Cosmo stainless rack, and I don't think much of it. Here's a par from an earlier post by me: "I have long been dissatisfied with the mean width of standard Tubus racks, like my stainless Cosmo, which might look good on a road bike but on a balloon-tyred bike, like most touring bikes these days, simply looks skimpy and is definitely suboptimal in use (and that's before you even get to Tubus cheap practices of gouging customers for necessary fittings like bolts (!), and then gouging them some more for extension sets that should be included in the price). As for the popular Fly, to me it looks like a schoolboy's tie scissored off an inch under the sloppy knot because the headmaster has made a tie compulsory..."
If you're on a budget, just the Cosmo extended bracket set by itself is half the price (once you add carriage) of a good quality rack from someone else, and in the end I had to raid the fittings of a rack on another bike to have enough bolts to fit the Cosmo; by the time it was fitted, my Cosmo cost something like a third the price of a perfectly competent offroad bike from my LBS. (Okay, I'm not on that tight a budget, but I'm a Calvinist, so I expect value for money.) A pox on Tubus. They sell because many of the alternatives are even more poncey.
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Hi Andre
tubus cosmo on ebay full kit inc fittings £68 plus £12 postage,
£80 for a stainless top of the range rack and you say that is expensive?
hoff owners ::) spend a grand on a wheel and then penny pinch the rest of the build ;)
i got the nova and cosmo for the xtc, much lighter than the surly racks on the Sherpa, 10 year warranty irc and i don't need to worry about rust or them getting tatty and they are more than adequate for a full complement of carradice Kendalls and a camper longflap
i agree on the tubus fly....... the airy is so much nicer
if you want a wider rack then try a surly nice rear rack, i havea spare nice rear rack i'd trade it for your cosmo any time, only lightly used (tibet n back by previous owner)
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... (and that's before you even get to Tubus cheap practices of gouging customers for necessary fittings like bolts (!), and then gouging them some more for extension sets that should be included in the price)
Oh no! So sorry to hear of your bad luck, Andre. I have a Tubus Logo Evo, a Cargo Evo, a Duo and two Taras and all came with high quality stainless hardware (including some spare bolts in a longer size for the dropouts). Both rear racks arrived with stays, bracket/stay clamps, hardware to attach and rubber caps to finish. I sent for some spare cranked stays and found them very reasonable in price at USD$6.50ea plus reasonable shipping in a padded envelope.
Maybe the yours were lost in shipping? My hardware was all packed in a heavy mailing tube with plastic end caps, the lot cable-tied to each rack for shipping.
I agree the Logo (Evo edition in my case) is too narrow to support a rack pack nicely, so I made a wider platform for it out of a thin sheet of Dupont Zytel. The top is now a standard width and the lower rails still support my pannier hooks without interference. See: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11800.msg85804#msg85804
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi Andre
tubus cosmo on ebay full kit inc fittings £68 plus £12 postage,
£80 for a stainless top of the range rack and you say that is expensive?
There's an extra-long fitting kit, required if you fit the biggest Big Apples on 622 wheels, as I did. I made enquiries before I bought a Cosmo, and was told by some ignoramus on their so-called "help" desk that I wouldn't need anything more than is supplied with the rack. That was quite untrue. It cost €18.90 just for postage from Germany, plus the excessive cost of the extension kit. Also, the standard kit's bolts were of inferior quality to the ones already on my bike (supplied by a German baukast that really takes care of details) and too short. After that sort of nuisance, a rack had better be perfect. The Cosmo isn't: it's a poser for roadies, not a serious tourer's rack. I don't possess a single piece of luggage that doesn't hang over the Cosmo's sides, and the triangulated struts interfere so stupidly with the pannier rail that the hooks on my fave Basil pannier baskets get ripped up long before the rest of the basket shows wear.
hoff owners ::) spend a grand on a wheel and then penny pinch the rest of the build ;)
Rubbish. No penny-pinching on my bike. It's the narrow Cosmo's wheel-pinching feminists object to.
if you want a wider rack then try a surly nice rear rack, i havea spare nice rear rack i'd trade it for your cosmo any time, only lightly used (tibet n back by previous owner)
I know (as we say here in the green and beloved island in a caring-sharing voice to express extreme disbelief), a little old lady rode it to church on Sundays. Only thing is, her pastor is the Dalai Lama.
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I'm happy to hear you're happy, Dan. I keep the Cosmo because my experience is that aluminium racks fold up when assaulted by carelessly driven Range Rovers (two ali racks heroically sacrificed themselves to save my bike) and the Cosmo inflicts expensive paintwork damage, marking the car and the owner for when I catch up with her and embarrass her in public. In my service steel racks rust before they wear out. But if there were another stainless rack available, I'd be on it like a flash. There used to be a pretty competent stainless rack available in the States but in very spotty supply over here, and it went off the market just as somebody told me about; it might have been called the Montana. I actually looked at the Tout Terrain bike with the welded-on rack at one stage, I was so fed up with inadequate racks, but decided I wasn't ever going to tour that far! (I'm anyway a credit card tourer; when I camped in Africa it was with a white-coated steward to serve drinks -- check him out, here, even including an obligatory cycling reference, but be warned, political incorrectness abounds: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/541710-the-robust-commonplace-book?comment=34615372#comment_34615372 (https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/541710-the-robust-commonplace-book?comment=34615372#comment_34615372))
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BTW, both my decently satisfactory ali racks were also by Tubus, though they were of superior, more ergonomic design, and called by the name of the wholly-owned German sister company that makes them -- in particular they were a small but crucial fraction wider than the Tubus racks, which just goes to show that even Tubus knows that their racks can be improved. Pricey, of course, but I liked them, except for being too easily bent in impacts. I discovered the ali Tubus line because they were low cost options on Utopia (I think there was maybe a few Euro uncharge over a steel Tubus that came as standard on the bike).
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Hi Bill, thanks for your response! I am pretty set on that surly however I realise its far too expensive. If I was going to negotiate with the dealer what are some good points I could use to make my case? If you were me and wanted to purchase this bike what price would be GREAT, and how much would be reasonable? I appreciate your help guys! 8 years on the same bike!? Crikey that does sound good.
Thanks for all your advice Dan, I appreciate your time replying, and you too jags :D
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Hi Steve
if your heart is set on a Troll, have you thought about getting the new version? i looked into buying a Troll frameset just after Xmas, they weren't in stock for months and the money burnt a hole in my pocket and i ended up with a barely used Klien attitude ::) I'll get a Troll one day but other bikes/framesets/builds pop up and i deviate,
the Troll on ebay has been listed before and didn't sell, i'd offer £1500 cash on collection, the seller would more than likely cancel the sale on ebay and save his fee's and if you pay cash he will also save paypal fee's,
that's what i'd do if i was buying/selling it (best be a bit cagey how you word your messages through ebay, I asked when i bought the klien "when i view it could i pay cash and take the bike if it was what i wanted", the seller was more than happy to knock some of for cash, as he'd relisted it and just wanted shot of it)
if you get it keep in touch as i still do have a real hankering for one, and I'd be interested of your opinion
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It's last years model.
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That's great Bill thanks! Well I just recently found a cheap ridgeback expedition 2017 with some extras for a lot less than RRP... I might strip the parts and put it on a troll frame if I find one! But like you said it's a hard one to find at the moment! £600 for the new frameset, i would kick myself if I paid that! But you are right if I want a troll that is probably the route I should take. So many good points here... How can I find the old listing? I would like to check out if there are discrepancies. Cheers again!
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Steve
check the sellers completed listings for the old ad
£600 is a lot for the new Troll frameset but if it's what you NEED/WANT then sod it it has to be paid ;) most of us understand need/want when it comes to bikes, it still leaves you £1050 on the ebay sellers asking price that you could spend on components
i thought the Sherpa was pricey when i bought it, but it has been worth every penny
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if you get it keep in touch as i still do have a real hankering for one, and I'd be interested of your opinion
Yes, but off-Forum as the competitive Surly content is a bit much on the playground Thorn pays for. ;)
All the best,
Dan.
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Hahaha well that's very fair Dan! This forum is great btw. And I'm not jumping over the fence but for more sound advice what are some other great forums to check out?
Thanks for all your help Bill, I appreciate it immensely! And yes I'll keep in touch :)
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Steve, the more time I spend on my bike (a Sherpa, set up to a lightweight spec), the more I appreciate Thorn bikes, and no other Forum or supplier's website gives such a wealth of information based on experience. I've been on the ctc forum in the past, and periodically now, but people tend to be dismissive of other points of view and sometimes just plain rude.
That's my contribution anyway!! and I also think that the most important part of any choice is fit and posture / comfort . . . Spec can be changed, and a wide variety of spec is suitable for a range of things anyway, but a bike that does not fit well is a pain in the . . . . pretty well every part of the body . . . .
Lewis
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And I'm not jumping over the fence but for more sound advice what are some other great forums to check out?
Some good ones to check out...
Here's some good fora for researching bikes...be sure to use their search function to look up the brand/model you need to get what you need fastest:
• Crazy Guy On A Bike-CGOAB (touring accounts, forum, etc)
• MTBR.com (yes, even for expedition bikes...there's some overlap)
• BikeForums.net
• SingleTrackWorld.com
• Lonely Planet
• Adventure Cycling Association https://www.adventurecycling.org/ ...and... http://forums.adventurecycling.org/
• Forum, CyclingUK.com https://forum.cyclinguk.org
• Yet Another Cycling Forum - YACF https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=80.0
• Forum, CTC forum.ctc.org.uk
• If you speak Dutch or are willing to translate, the Weraldfietser (world cyclist) Forum
http://www.wereldfietser.nl/phpbb/search.php?search_id=active_topics
This should get you going with some more helpful resources, Steve.
Best,
Dan.
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Steve, the more time I spend on my bike (a Sherpa, set up to a lightweight spec), the more I appreciate Thorn bikes, and no other Forum or supplier's website gives such a wealth of information based on experience. I've been on the ctc forum in the past, and periodically now, but people tend to be dismissive of other points of view and sometimes just plain rude.
That's my contribution anyway!! and I also think that the most important part of any choice is fit and posture / comfort . . . Spec can be changed, and a wide variety of spec is suitable for a range of things anyway, but a bike that does not fit well is a pain in the . . . . pretty well every part of the body . . . .
Lewis
Re this forum - Amen to that Lewis.
Steven, hope you get the bike you want (get a Thorn, but then I'm biased ;)) BTW, have you looked at the Thorn 'sale' bikes on SJS Cycles site? That's where I got mine from and with quite a hefty discount.
Janet
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A couple of years ago, I really 'hummed and hahhed' over a Troll or a Raven/Nomad....that's how I ended up looking around this (brilliant) web site. At the time I had never even heard of a Rohloff and had never built a bike up myself. I basically wanted a bike that was as versitile and as near to indestructible as I could find.
I eventually ended up buying a Troll frameset and building it up with derailleurs and disc brakes. My thinking was that if I really liked it, then I could bung in a Rohloff at a later date and/or change the brakes if I didn't get on with the discs. I also liked the idea that it had horizontal drop outs for chain tension and not an eccentric bottom bracket. Rightly or wrongly I viewed the EBB as something that could be troublesome. Whichever way i looked at it, it seemed to me that horizontal dropouts would have less chance of 'failing' than an EBB. This perception may well be absolute rubbish, it's just the way that I saw it.
The build was dead easy....though I went through three sets of brakes to get the one's that I liked. Tektro to Avid BB7 to Shimano XT, the XT's are brilliant.....one finger stopping from any speed. I loved/love the bike so much that I soon slotted in a Rohloff.
As I see it. It's VERY unlikely that I will go back to derailleurs on this bike, so I DO wonder if I should have bought a Thorn Rohloff specific frame. Wheel in/out probably is more difficult on the Troll as opposed to a Thorn/Rohloff, but I still think it's marginal and I still like the idea of no EBB and the overall versitility of the Troll. It will take derailleurs/Rohloff/Single speed, any sort of brakes you like, it has braze ons for racks/mudguards and it's a strong as an Ox.
Serious offer.....I'm in the North East of England (North Yorkshire) If you can get over this way then you are welcome to a blast on my 'Trollhoff' anytime....(2015/Large/Black)..... ;)
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I also liked the idea that it had horizontal drop outs for chain tension and not an eccentric bottom bracket. Rightly or wrongly I viewed the EBB as something that could be troublesome. Whichever way i looked at it, it seemed to me that horizontal dropouts would have less chance of 'failing' than an EBB. This perception may well be absolute rubbish, it's just the way that I saw it.
About ten-twelve years ago I too looked at Surly, the Karate Monkey, specifically because it was a known-strong frame that was not only Rohloff-capable, but had fittings for everything, very versatile. Such versatility is uncommon on American frames, where everything is an extra. But I didn't like the welded frame... To me, a proper bike is brazed together, either filleted or lugged. I'm an artist who's done a good deal of engineering design, but I don't mind admitting it is a strictly aesthetic prejudice, nothing to do with engineering: it's my money, and my proven taste, and I get what I want for it, or as close as dammit.
I agree with you on horizontal dropouts being superior in conception and use to eccentric bottom brackets.
However, the thing is you really buy the bike designer's entire philosophy, simply because you must. Even if you can afford to have a custom bike made, despite the promises of the custom bike builders to give you everything you want, you soon discover that essentially you're just buying more expensively into someone else's bike philosophy, sometimes hidden until it is too late; there is always something you want that you can't have.
It's Andy Blance's philosophy that makes his Thorn bikes so good as a whole (and behind that Robin Thorn's trading philosophy), regardless of which details you disagree with. I was originally attracted to reading his transparent screeds about the design and proving of his bikes because he knew all the best components that would last and last without going to stupidly priced boutique parts of uncertain engineering provenance.
Well, if you go to a guy because he exhibits a consistently applied value-for-money ethos, then efficient, cheap welding just comes in the package; it would be a betrayal of his principles to offer expensive fillet brazing.
The EBB probably comes from a road-racing background, and for the same reason as the rejection of lugs: weight. Now, I think all this road-racing-derived weightweenery on touring bikes is an infantile throwback, but it is where the best bikes, including touring bikes, had their origins. You can like it or you can lump it; it is just a fact of bicycles the consequences of which you have to live with. So, an EBB weighs quite a bit less than the hefty aluminium hangers associated with a sliding Rohloff fitment. For me, the fiddliness of the EBB, and it's risks of a slot being worn in it and the thing rotating at just the wrong time in the wrong place, is the key consideration against it. For someone from a roadie background, the distinct weight advantage of the EBB is the key consideration for it, and fiddly adjustment is irrelevant because roadies are used to it.
So you take the good (meaning 100% agreement with your prejudices!), and the otherwise justified, altogether, because on balance the designer is the one most in tune with what you want.
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Hi Janet , Yeah I checked that out a few times. Not a lot of rage a this moment. I tried searching for a Sherpa that was for sale but couldnt find one! Do you know of any other markets that stock Thorns worth looking at?
No wonder! It's a hard choice to make tiberius. That's exactly what I'm looking for too! The troll seems to have it all but a weightlessness that nearly every other bike seems to have :D Sorry, what's an EBB? Have you had any problems with the rollhoff? It looks like a good setup tbh but i'd be very worried about something going wrong and having to send it to Germany!
The versatility and sturdiness takes the cake for sure. Haha! I thought that was an offer to buy the bike when I first read it! If I'm over your way sometime I'll probably be riding my own troll! If that's the case then It would be great if we both went out on a ride! :)
Hi Andre, your comment has been taken into serious consideration. Contemplating the reasons behind a bikes design and general mission of the brand gives us a great insight into what's to come when we finally take the plunge! It's given me a new way to look at the decision in front of me and hopefully will make that easier :D
steven
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I'm sorry Steve, I don't apart from this forum's "for sale". Guys, any ideas???
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Sure! Do an eBay search for "Thorn bike" (no quotes). Keep an eye on Gumtree, too.
EDIT: Check the CTC forum for sale board, too.
Best,
Dan.
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No wonder! It's a hard choice to make tiberius. That's exactly what I'm looking for too! The troll seems to have it all but a weightlessness that nearly every other bike seems to have :D Sorry, what's an EBB? Have you had any problems with the rollhoff? It looks like a good setup tbh but i'd be very worried about something going wrong and having to send it to Germany!
The versatility and sturdiness takes the cake for sure. Haha! I thought that was an offer to buy the bike when I first read it! If I'm over your way sometime I'll probably be riding my own troll! If that's the case then It would be great if we both went out on a ride! :)
EBB = Eccentric Bottom Bracket. It is how you tension the chain on Thorn Rohloff specific bikes. Do a search on this site, lots of info' around.
I've had zero issues with the Rohloff and don't expect to. It has become one of the few things in my life that I trust 100%. I can't recommend it highly enough and I would set off on a world tour with it tomorrow.
Andre Jute. A very interesting insight.
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There is a 558M Thorn Catalyst for sale here:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=112954
A Thorn Catalyst is definately worth taking a look at. The Thorn Catalyst brochure can be found here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050331172232/http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornCatalystBroHiRes.pdf
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Hey Mac spud. That bike looks friggin awesome. Although I would need to change the fork.... Seems like it would be a great tourer quite similar to the surly troll I'm looking at at the moment... Do you know how much they go for brand new?
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Hey Mac spud. That bike looks friggin awesome. Although I would need to change the fork.... Seems like it would be a great tourer quite similar to the surly troll I'm looking at at the moment... Do you know how much they go for brand new?
If you mean the Catalyst. There is NO new price. It has been out of manufacture for a considerable number of years. The same bike has been advertised here for a while............ Up to you.
Just my personal view but if I felt the need for a SUS fork for touring I would buy a Nomad.
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I hadn't realised that it is advertised here as well: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12305.msg90697#msg90697
The Thorn Catalyst has been dropped from Thorns line up, along with their other models of mountain bike type tourers, Thorn is a niche brand known for road and expedition touring bikes, when they had a forage into mountain bikes they found it hard to compete pricewise with all the mass market mountin bikes in the market. Their margins were too tight to find a price point that would sell well and also be profitable, so they decided to drop out of that market and carry on with what they're known for.
All Thorn's mountain type bikes, Catalyst, Enduro, Sterling (Rohloff) and Ripio (derailleur) are well thought of but those who has owned or ridden them.
The 26" Thorn Mt Tura Mk2 Steel Fork - 80 / 100 mm Suspension Corrected fork would be good if you wanted a ridgid fork: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/forks/26-thorn-mt-tura-mk2-steel-fork-80-100-mm-suspension-corrected-matt-black/
I'd guess the new price for a Catalyst these days (if they were still made) would be £2500-3000
I would think from reading the ad that there may be some leeway in the price.
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. . . and I have a Mt Tura fork which a buyer could use, making it more of a trail tourer than a mountain bike . . .
Likely to put it up on the forum after return from holiday in Italy . . . Working on a phone here . . .
Lewis
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........ If I did not feel the need for a sus fork for touring. I would buy a raven.