Author Topic: Chain life with rohloff (and a bit of chainglider stuff too)  (Read 14024 times)

ipswichcycler

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Chain life with rohloff (and a bit of chainglider stuff too)
« on: August 13, 2014, 10:31:01 pm »
 If after many miles you have used all the ebb movement up and then the chain goes slack and you remove a link and reset the ebb are you increasing sprocket wear? How do you know when you need to buy a new chain?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:08:34 pm by ipswichcycler »

JimK

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 01:42:16 am »
This is a nice puzzle and I expect there are many strategies. I started by switching chains a lot and now I have given up and just ride.

Here is one piece of the puzzle. The chain and sprocket and chain ring seem to need to wear together. A fresh chain on a worn chain ring isn't very happy. Anyway I am still learning but this seems to be one factor in the big equation.

David Simpson

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 02:23:31 am »
I am by no means an expert, but here is my understanding: The EBB takes up the slack between the chainring and the sprocket. However, as the chain wears, the critical problem is the wear in the rollers (is that the correct part?) in each link of the chain. When these parts wear, the links do not seat perfectly in the teeth of the sprocket and chainring, and start riding higher on the teeth. With less bearing surface between the chain and the teeth, the teeth start wearing much more quickly, and take the shape of a shark fin. Eventually the chain will skip over the teeth, and the sprocket, chainring, and chain will all need to be replaced.

Once the teeth have worn, if only the chain is replaced, a new chain will not mate smoothly with the worn teeth, resulting in rapid wear in the chain. The chain and teeth are designed so that the teeth "cradle" the chain links, with a large bearing surface. A worn chain on new teeth, or vice versa, has a much smaller bearing surface, resulting in rapid wear on both parts.

The chain should be replaced before it starts to cause the rapid wearing of the teeth. You can tell if the chain is not mating nicely with the teeth by grabbing the link on the foward part of the chainring, and trying to pull the chain away from the teeth (pull towards the front of the bike). Ideally, you should only be able to pull just that link, or maybe not at all. If you can pull a few links away from the chainring, then the chain should be replaced.

Note that tension on the chain (as caused by the position of the EBB) does not affect how many links you can pull away from the front of the chainring. Since the chainring is holding the chain around half of its circumference, any slack in the chain around the chainring is entirely due to wear in the chain. This is good, since it means that you can measure the wear in your chain independently of the tension in the chain caused by the position of the EBB.

This is how I understand chain wear. Please correct me if this isn't right.

- Dave
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 02:28:36 am by davidjsimpson »

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 10:42:57 am »
I'm no expert either. But everything you say ties in with my experience of my chain skipping totally. It was so bad and came on so suddenly that I almost abandoned my tour. It was only the LBS fitting a new cheapie front ring that got me back on the road again.
Another guy I met later on my tour took a 12 inch ruler and layer it along side my chain  and said it wasn't worn. It was a rough way to measure chain wear. Anything more that one eight of an inch is wear, according to him. There are of course proper chain wear guages.

I can still see gaps between the chain and ring so perhaps the chain ring fitted was not new? Or maybe the chain is worn.

I have decided to start from scratch again. And fit new fornt and rear rings plus chain. And also a new EBB.
Since I bought the bike second hand I am not clear as to how long those components have been on the bike.
So I consider it a good move.

Having said that, the new ring got me through 800 miles of loaded touring without skipping a beat.

Tough buggers are there Thorns!
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Rockymountain

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 11:12:07 am »
I just treat my chains and chain rings as I would with any other bike. I've got a Park Tool chain measurer and when the chain is too stretched I change the chain. I work on using three chains before I change the rings. I usually get 3,000-4,000 miles from a chain.

I suspect as has been said above there are many other approaches and all will have their merits.

il padrone

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 11:18:27 am »
I just treat my chains and chain rings as I would with any other bike. I've got a Park Tool chain measurer and when the chain is too stretched I change the chain. I work on using three chains before I change the rings. I usually get 3,000-4,000 miles from a chain.

+1

Apart from the Park Tools chain measurer (I use a 12" ruler), everything you say is what I do as well. By rotating the chains once each I have got ~8,000 kms per chain.

geocycle

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 05:36:25 pm »
I run two chains.  After about 2000 miles I rotate them.  This way they both wear along with the sprocket and chain ring.  When all the play is used up on the EBB I remove a link.  After about 10,000 miles I change the chainring, sprocket and chains.  This is conservative and I could probably get 50% more by rotating the ring and sprocket etc but they're not that expensive.
 

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 07:36:18 pm »
il pardrone
Can you clarify your 12 inch ruler measurement method please.
How much over the 12 inch do you allow?
Thanks

Good points about changing rings and chain BTW

Matt
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jags

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 10:12:33 pm »
get rid of those fecking rohloff hubs  more hassle than a pk of crisps ::) ::)

martinf

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2014, 06:40:13 am »
Not yet had my Rohloff bike long enough to worry about chain maintenance. As I have a Chainglider, I expect to at least halve chain maintenance compared to my hub-gear bikes without chain protection, which already needed significantly less maintenance than my derailleur bikes.

On my 5-speed hub gear bike I used to run several chains/rear sprockets in rotation, changing every 500 to 1,500 kms depending on how quickly the chain picked up dirt, then cleaning the  chain and storing it to put back on the bike later, flipping the (cheap) rear sprocket to use it with 2 different chains. I scrapped chains/rear sprockets when I reckoned they were too worn, between 4,000 and 8,000 kms per chain, and scrapped the chainring when I finished the last chain.

So with 4 chains, 2 sprockets and 1 chainring I used to get between 16,000 and 32,000 kms of use.

I put a Chainglider on this bike about 2 years ago and haven't done any chain maintenance on it since, except for opening the Chainglider once out of curiosity.



il padrone

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2014, 10:46:18 am »
So with 4 chains, 2 sprockets and 1 chainring I used to get between 16,000 and 32,000 kms of use.

Pretty similar to what I have had - 3 chains, rotated at ~3,000 kms each; finally binned on the second rotation after 8,000kms each. On the last chain now, sprocket and chainring don't look too bad after 21,000 kms, but I have the replacements and will swap all at 24,000 kms.



I put a Chainglider on this bike about 2 years ago and haven't done any chain maintenance on it since, except for opening the Chainglider once out of curiosity.

Now that is really what I wanted to hear  ;D

Chainglider waiting for fitting with new drivetrain. What chainring do you use and do you notice any drag from friction with the Chainglider?


Re the 12 inch ruler: I actually use a longer 1m rule to get the over-length measure. I use the generally accepted measures - under 12 1/16" - the chain is unworn; no need to do anything. 12 1/16" - 12 1/8" - the chain is worn; replace it but the sprockets are probably OK. More than 12 1/8" - both the chain and the sprockets are going to be worn; replace all of drivetrain. A  caveeat to this is that a chainring will have a longer lifespan than a rear sprocket/cassette, due to the wear spread over many more teeth, so you may get several chain lives before the chainring really needs replacing.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 10:56:29 am by il padrone »

mickeg

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2014, 04:28:04 pm »
I buy cheap enough chains that I do not bother to rotate them.  I misplaced my Park gauge, so am using the 12 inch ruler to watch for about 3/32 inch of stretch, at which time another chain goes on.  I have not changed a chainring or cassette on any of my bikes for over a decade.  All five of my bikes that I regularly ride use the same KMC eight speed chains.  I do not keep track of when I change a chain, so I can't say how many miles I get to a chain.  But since I keep several spares handy, I probably get less miles that most other people because I do not wait for them to get so bad that they damage the chainring or cassette or Rohloff cog.

When my drive train gets noisy, I lube the chain.  I only remove the chain to clean it if it is extremely filthy, otherwise just wipe it off with paper towels and add lube.  See photo, that was a filthy chain.  It is hard to see the chain in the photo because it is the same color as the ground, but you can see how dirty the EX box is, the chain looked that bad too.

I have no idea if this theory will make my Nomad chains last longer or not, but I am using this method since both my rear cog and chainring have an even number of teeth.  I put a tiny little slot in one tooth on the chainring and on the rear cog to mark teeth that I make sure I use a link with outer plates.  It is a small slot, did not grind it down as much as Sheldon described.
http://sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html


« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 04:29:51 pm by mickeg »

Andre Jute

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 05:43:46 pm »
And see in Mick's photo how Thorn Yellow just about rejects dirt!

Upon inspection of my zero-added-lube chain-life experiment, and reading the threads here, which all indicate very great reduction of wear-inducing circumstances inside a Chainglider, I've started to wonder if it is really necessary to use a stainless steel chainring. I went to the Surly stainless steel ring because a) I always buy the best (I don't mean boutique brands, I mean the best objective quality), b) it didn't cost all that much more than a TA or Thorn chainring, c) I was deliberately building a bike that would require zero maintenance or the nearest possible equivalent, and d) part of the zero maintenance strategy was to fit components that would not require replacement in my lifetime. There's an additional reason to fit the Surly stainless chainring which appeared on consideration of the Chainglider chain width specification: the Surly fits beautifully, but I'm sure you can get thin aluminium chainrings if you search for them, and you could use cheaper plain steel. I don't intend to swap out my Surly chainring (and in any event I've laid in a spare), but I mention this for those of you who are put off by the initial cost of the Chainglider and associated replacements to make it work on your bike.

I'm no longer even certain that the high quality KMC X8 chain I recommend (or even its theoretically slightly cheaper Z8 single speed sibling of the same high quality) is necessary inside a Chainglider, never mind the expensive Rohloff-specific X1. Inside the Chainglider, after a distance in which I would deplorably have worn out two Shimano chains in the days when I ran Shimano hub gearboxes with Dutch plastic full chain enclosures, the X8 chain, running only in factory lube, no added lube at all, appears good to go indefinitely. In that case, why not fit a KMC single speed chain from down the list at half the price of the X8? I won't do this either, because I have X8 spare chains laid in from when Chainreactioncycles had a sale, but the logic is striking.

I guess, like everyone who doesn't have experience of it (see in particular Dan's thoughtful questions in the Chainglider threads), on consideration of its form and construction, I expected some dirt to enter the Chainglider whereas almost none does, and for it to provide more interior grinding possibilities to wear itself or the transmission while in in use there appears to be none.

Remember though: my purpose is now, and has always been, a bike as near as possible to maintenance-free. Some of you guys already achieve amazing mileages with open chains. I wouldn't expect you high-milers to double or quadruple your mileages just for fitting a Chainglider, because all it will do is replace the cleanliness of regular chain cleaning and swapping with maintenance-free cleanliness. All you'll find is some cycling time that you previously spent cleaning chains.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:47:26 pm by Andre Jute »

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 05:47:16 pm »
<snip>

Chainglider waiting for fitting with new drivetrain. What chainring do you use and do you notice any drag from friction with the Chainglider?

<snip>

I'm also interested in the response to Pete's question. I've had a Chainglider for some time now, ready to fit to my Nomad (38Tx16T), but every time I have a go, I worry about friction and scoring of the Rohloff hub case. I also had to shorten the Chainglider significantly to get it to fit. Is that normal?

(I probably should have started another thread with this...)  ???

geocycle

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Re: Chain life with rohloff
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 05:58:20 pm »
I'm also interested in the response to Pete's question. I've had a Chainglider for some time now, ready to fit to my Nomad (38Tx16T), but every time I have a go, I worry about friction and scoring of the Rohloff hub case. I also had to shorten the Chainglider significantly to get it to fit. Is that normal?

(I probably should have started another thread with this...)  ???

There is friction with the chainglider. If you spin it on a stand it will slow the pedals down and makes a low noise. But, when in use you forget about it suggesting that at touring speeds any loss in performance is small. If you have the rohloff specific version it shouldn't scratch the hub.  The adjustment needed depends on the length of the chainstays which are a function of the model and frame size.  When I changed from RT to RST frame I had to cut an inch off the chainglider.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 08:22:06 am by geocycle »