Swithering over Audax and Club Tour

[Far-Oeuf]

btw, I've been looking through all the racers bikes, and the guy (currently) out in front seems to be on a steel bike (a Jaegher Interceptor).   there is hope 

[triaesthete]

I don't think steel is part of the inappropriateness mix, especially if you're buying your own kit 

I think your most practical/competitive option would be  the smallest Mk3 frame you fit with the 853 fork, proper wheels (36 rear 32 front spokes), Son delux hub and B&M led lights, 9 speed mix n match transmission with Dura Ace downtube shifters.

Happy shopping

Ian

[Far-Oeuf]

hmm... on balance my reasons for leaning towards the Club Tour are :

1. I'm not (ever going to be) a pro-racer, of ultra distance events.  Therefore I want a multi-purpose bike, while accepting that it might technically be a little slower/heavier than a purpose built racer.   Next years' London-Istanbul race is a one-off, and if it's not then I can consider investing in a specific race bike if I really get the taste for it.

2. I expect to put in around 15,000km (at least) of all-weather training (away from home) for the London-Istanbul race.   While I am happy to build a front wheel in the frame, in a hotel room, I'm not going to try that for a rear.  Having a rear disc brake effectively rules out rear-wheel wear, which will be cheaper and less hassle over the next year or so.   Picking up good new rear wheels is one of the annoying things about always riding away from home, for me.

3. The small clearance between 28mm tyres (my preferred choice) and the mudguards, on the Audax, are less desirable for my riding.   Most adventure racers don't use mudguards, but I will and this also affects point 1.

4. Not that I care much, but the CT (full bike) weighs about a 750ml water bottle more than the Audax.   I don't think, over this sort of race distance, 750g really makes that much difference to my own first attempt at the race; given the total weight (rider+bike+kit+water) may be in the region of 100kg.

the big spanner in the works is that Thorn (visited yesterday) only have the red-white-blue CT, and I think it's pretty ugly.   Now, the colour clearly makes no difference to the performance of the bike (as a tourer, or race entrant), but the solid colours of the Audax bikes are very nice.   It somehow feels wrong to spend so much money on something you don't like the look of, despite all other aspects being excellent.   I'm working on this minor bout of vanity at the moment... 

cheers

[honesty]

Thorn will get the frames sprayed to your exacting colour requirements if you give them money though

I rather like the red/blue combo... but I think I'd prefer it in solid red or solid blue if I had the choice!

[Far-Oeuf]

even if I was prepared to pay for a new bike to be resprayed (and I'm not    ), it adds a couple of months to the whole process.   I just need to get over myself really, much cheaper

[Swislon]

I have the Club Tour.
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8441.0
It is solid very comfortable with 32mm tyres and multi purpose. Lots of clearance with 28mm.

Although I don't have the Thorn Audax I have a Bob Jackson Audax custom.
My CT has rear disc and Schmidt hub at the front. It is heavier than my Audax and does feel it on the hills round here but I just winch my way up.
The Audax is much more agile (28mm tyres).

I know what you mean about the colour but why not get a respray when you return because chances are it will need one after all the training and then the race!

[leftpoole]

I'm not trying to be picky, but interested why you think the Audax would climb better.  With the same components would there be any difference between the Audax and CT?   Or do you mean that as standard bikes the Audax is geared more for climbing?

cheers,

Hi,
If you were not trying to be picky you would already own a Thorn Audax or a Club Tour.
Colour is a personal choice (I agree that the blue/red are not great) but for goodness sake you own a Surly??
Audax will climb better-even a picky person like yourself should know that a lighter bike climbs more easily?
John

[Far-Oeuf]

picky-ness is not a lot to do with not already owning a Thorn, a complete LHT is £600 less and mine has done 20k km without any trouble.   it wasn't about being picky, it was a cost decision.

your further assumptions about me being a person that is ignorant of the effects of the weight of a bike is wide of the mark.  a carbon race bike is lighter than a CT, but I am pretty sure it won't climb better after 150 miles in the saddle.   Ultra-distance performance (which is what I've been talking about) isn't simply about weight; reliability and comfort come before weight.

my original question was around whether an Audax or CT would be much different over 15 hours per day (every day for a week).   Now I know that there's only 750g of weight difference (a single bidon), I would challenge anyone to say that that much weight makes 'an incredible' difference to their climbing ability.   750g (less than 1% of all up weight) is sacrificed for a greater degree of comfort, which is well worth the price (I'd say) in an ultra-distance race.

cheers,

[honesty]

Is that 750g frame weight? I'd be interested to know the frame weight of the new MK4, as the Audax is 2.3kg frame only + 1kg for the standard fork, which makes quite a heavy frame really when you compare it to other steel audax frames (let alone the 1.5kg of a titanium frame). Without knowing the exact details I would think you could make a lighter club tour build than the standard audax anyway. That plus the extra tyre clearance to me for long distance lightweight touring/racing means the CT makes more sense.

[Far-Oeuf]

750g was the difference between like-for-like builds of the CT4 and Audax3; so, effectively, frame weight.   That's not an official figure, it was just a response to my question while at their shop.   Certainly the bikes didn't feel that different in weight.   But, both bikes are considerably lighter (3-4kg) than my (complete) LHT.

A carbon fork is out for me, so I'd go with the 853 fork whichever bike I went with.   And with the weights so close, it really does come down to function.  So disc brake, tyre clearance, comfort.   I'd take DT shifters, so save a bit over STIs.

The reason I am interested in the weight is that (while on tour) I rode 100km to Ventoux on the day before last years TdF (with rear panniers ~18kg).   I then rode up Ventoux along with the hordes, riding past many cyclists in full roadie kit on carbon/alu bikes.   I'm not suggesting I 'raced' up, I was quite sedate and just ground my way up there, but it's not all about a light bike.

I doubt I'll ever be at the marginal end of cycle racing that I'll go faster if I chuck a full bidon into a hedge at the bottom of a climb.   I just can't see that.   Although it theoretically makes sense, I would imagine taking a straighter/stricter line up Ventoux would make far more of a difference (just note the road-weaving people do on climbs).

Just a note on the Transcontinental Race.   The winner took 8 days (London-Istanbul, via Paris, Stelvio Pass, Montenegro), rode a very light steel bike.   The causes of riders dropping out are/were mainly, GPS failure (Garmins), spokes, shifters (STIs) and rear mechs.

thanks for the comments so far, I've still not yet ordered the bike but I expect I'll order a CT at some point this week.

cheers

[jags]

Wow i cant imagine me doing 15 hours in the saddle ,respect ;)i still think the audax will be better but hey your the guy thats going to ride it so you certainly know best.
don't suppose you have any videos or blog of your adventures you come across as one hell of a rider.

cheers and bet of luck with witchever bike you choose.


jags.

[Far-Oeuf]

(@honesty mainly), I thought about it more and I think I've come up with a way to articulate what I want.   A CT4 with an Audax3 finishing kit (32h wheels, 28mm tyres, etc).   Add in my DT shifters, three bottle cages, and a rear disc brake.   My 'luggage' will be under 5kg for all my riding over the next 11 months.

That gets me as near as there's no difference an Audax3 for the race, but a bike that will tour loaded with minimal extra spend; after the race.

if any of you use Facebook, here's a short interview with the winner of this years' race : https://www.facebook.com/transconrace. 

[Far-Oeuf]

just some thoughts that might be useful to someone else trying to decide..

wheelset on the Audax 3 is Mavic Open Sport rims, 32h Deore hub, 28 Panaracer Pasela tyre.
wheelset on the Club Tour 4 is Mavic A719 rims, 36h Deore hub (non-disc), 32 Schwalbe Marathon Supreme folding tyre.

quick calculation shows the (standard) CT4 wheelset to be around 500g more than the (standard) Audax 3 wheelset.

I have quotes for both bikes, and the wheels/tyres are the only real difference.   The brakes are different, as I spec'd a rear disc and front v-brake, and the Audax only takes calipers.   Finally the CT has (my spec) P45 mudguards, and the Audax P35.

In terms of complete bike weight, there doesn't appear to be that much between the two bikes.  Maybe 1.5/2kg as standard (one spec'd for touring, the other for audax).  And a fair amount of that could be shed from the CT by swapping out the wheels.

[Far-Oeuf]

@jags, just an average rider really.  the race will definitely be a step up, but I've been doing a few taster torture sessions (10 hours plus, consecutive days, etc) and it's working out ok.   I'm really hoping a well fitted bike will make a big difference.

I'm making a film of the process of the race (training, etc).  I'm coming from the angle that I'm an experienced traveller/navigator who can cycle a bit, rather than a cycle racer who has to learn multi-country riding.   Currently I'm siding with paper maps (I always travel with paper maps), I'll be getting my energy from local foods rather than carry a bag of gels/protein powder.   That's my approach, blood sweat and tears will win the day over science :-)

It's going to be an exciting (for me at least) next 12 months.  I'm hoping to have ordered and picked up the bike, from Thorn, by the third week of September.  I'll ride around Bridgwater for a day to check all is ok, and then pedal straight off to Croatia to get a decent feel for this long distance malarky and the CT.   Then the plan is to head from there over towards Barcelona to some speed training in the Pyrenees with a roadie friend.

I'll pop back here when I'm due to head off, with some online details for updates along the way.

cheers

[jags]

fantastic I've never come across anyone who done this kinda riding before, I'm just going to hunt utube to find a video on it bound to be something there.
how did you get into this crazy stuff   it even sound gruelling before a pedal stroke is turned.
anyway best of luck please post a few photos of yourself and bike beore you set off great to follow your adventure.


jags.
found thihttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0It1rls1Qks i'm sure i posted it before now that i see it but anyway its epic stuff.