Author Topic: 10sp Thorns  (Read 5360 times)

zoslen

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
10sp Thorns
« on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:23 pm »
Hi

I noticed at Thorn's latest brochures that Sherpa and Audax have moved on from 9sp to 10sp.

I am really wondering WHY?

Is it worth having a more delicate, harder to clean and more fragile chain ?


Top components follow the edge of technology and some really nice things start to vanish.

8sp cassettes and corresponding shifters, chains, square taper BBs and corresponding crankarms, have declassed by companies and are not top quality products any more.

I am not against products development but I really don't like fragile things!

Zoslen

JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 11:04:44 pm »
Yeah it was the demise of the brifters on my 7-speed Trek 520 that started the ball rolling that resulted in me acquiring a Thorn Nomad. My little attempt at future-proofing!

BTW we are moving here to a small apartment which will mean storing the Thorn outdoors. My plan is to lock it to a big tree and cover it with a tarp: http://www.empirecovers.com/search_bike_covers.aspx?size=BKMB-1

I sure hope this doesn't destroy my bike! I could always rent a storage shed someplace instead but that makes the bike inaccessible enough that I would ride it a lot less, which is effective destruction too. Life!

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 11:48:50 pm »
Hi Zoslen!

Dan Towle at R&E Cycles in Seattle, WA wrote a nice article on this very topic: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/retrogrouch.html
...and another article detailing some of the reasons why these things occur: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/proprietary-parts.html

I appreciate Thorn's commitment to proven, lasting components and tour-tested design; we're the lucky beneficiaries of designer Andy Blance's real-world use and testing in his own tours.

However, Shimano are a major OEM and aftermarket supplier (as are SRAM and Campagnolo and a number of smaller firms). Each year these companies make changes in their lines. Sometimes they are minor, other times, those changes are so large as to render previous generations obsolete through incompatibility. These major component suppliers also retire older lines from time to time, meaning no direct replacement parts are available. When derailleurs were friction-shifted, this wasn't much of a problem. With the introduction of indexed shifting, components became systems with less interchangeability. Yes, sometimes old and new parts can mix together fine, but increasingly, when old parts wear out, the fix requires major components of a new system to get things working again.

Quote
I noticed at Thorn's latest brochures that Sherpa and Audax have moved on from 9sp to 10sp.

I am really wondering WHY?
My guess is Shimano is no longer making 9-sp components available in OEM volumes, so Thorn have had to make the switch to 10-sp. Knowing their commitment to long-lived components and bicycles, I have no doubt they have vetted the available selection to spec the best of what's available.

Will it "last as long" as 9-sp? All indications would be no, but I was pleasantly surprised to learn 10-sp chains came out well in a real-world chain test: http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/19/bikerumor-shimano-chainwear-challenge-the-results/ The reported test results?:
Quote
Simply put, the 10 speed chains lasted longer. Quite a bit longer, in fact. Even the difference between the worst performing 10 speed chain and best performing 9 speed chain was still 225 miles. The difference between Bob and Chris (both endurance racers of similar skill and size) was a whopping 470 miles.

While the performance of the 9 speed group was fairly constant, the 10 speed chains seemed to gain a second wind in the last half of their total mileage. They just wouldn’t die – I would tell riders to expect only about 50 more miles, only to have them return 100 miles later and still not be finished.
As to why, the article concludes:
Quote
We’ve spoken with Shimano many times about the durability of their chains, and what thinner chains mean for durability, and the answer is always the same – the new chains are stronger, because they are engineered to be. In fact, Shimano claims the new Dura Ace 11 speed chain is the strongest chain they’ve ever made which means it replaces the XTR Dynasys chain for that honor. In order to make this a reality the new chains are built with tighter manufacturing tolerances, improved plating, and improved design, all of which add up to better shifting, and better durability.
...with this surprising statement:
Quote
Shimano is quick to point out that there is actually very little correlation between chain width and durability, if any. Rather, ultimate durability comes down to the construction of the chain and the layout of the gearing like the wide range of the cassette and narrower range of the crankset on the Dynasys drivetrains.
If this is true, then there is hope better manufacturing (i.e. manufacturing to tighter tolerances) will result in 10-sp drivetrains as long-lived as 9-sp.

As for me, I still very much like my CA 1989 Shimano Deore 7-sp drivetrain..which has yet to "wear out". For that matter, I'm still running friction shifters and 5-sp and 6-sp freewheel drivetrains that work as nicely as I might hope for even after tens of thousands of miles.

At the other end of the spectrum, there's the Rohloff...proven, reliable, backward-compatible and about as trend-resistant as you can get, with the inbuilt advantage of very long life thanks to the design and shielded oil-bath lubrication. Pretty much the ultimate in reliable, robust drivetrains if wear-resistance is the key factor.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:16:24 am by Danneaux »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 12:01:10 am »
On a quite different topic from 10-sp gearing...

Jim, I'd use caution with one of those fitted covers. While they work well to keep rain and such off a bike, they can produce deadly results in terms of rust and corrosion due to condensation.

A friend of mine operated a used-bike shop for 25 years, and his inventory was larger than what the shop could hold, so he had to store some bikes and frames outside. At the end of a year, I helped him rotate his stock and we were both shocked at what we saw. Those bikes stored under tarps were in terrible shape with really severe corrosion due to condensation. Next-worst where those stored under a cover with open sides (in this case, a semi-trailer). Aside from those stored in the shop itself, the bikes that fared best of all were those stored out in all weather.

Seeing the results of this unintended experiment, I decided against individual,fitted bike covers for myself, and figured if I were to store a bike outside, I'd cover or remove the saddle and leave the rest pretty much out in the open. I've sort of done just that with some of the old frames that represent spare tubing stock for my hobbyist framebuiding projects. Right now, out behind the garden shed, I have a Peugeot, a Bianchi, and a Bridgestone RB-1 (all had run into curbs at speed and couldn't be safely resold as used) that have spent the last 5+ years outdoors. There's very little surface rust and nothing deep or flaky. I also have a tubing section cut from a frame that had been stored under a tarp for a couple years. I has actually rust-perforated at several places in the unbutted section. None of these frames were treated internally or Framesavered, by they way. Similarly, my 1972 Windsor Professional was purchased complete for USD$20 from the owner, who stored it outdoors in Central Oregon's dry powder snow for three winters when it repeatedly failed to sell at garage sales. A quick wax job, and it looks as-new inside and out; no sign of rust beyond a slight discoloration in some of the smaller chips.

I realize local conditions, humidity, and proximity to the sea all vary by location, but I think I'd steer clear of tight-fitting covers given what I've seen. Just another data point, hoping it might prove helpful to you and perhaps extend the life of your Nomad.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:12:46 am by Danneaux »

JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 12:36:08 am »
Thanks for the report, Dan! Maybe the whole secret is just good lube for the chain! And a shower cap for the saddle!

JimK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1652
    • Interdependent Science
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 12:56:21 am »
Hmmm, or maybe time for a chainglider???

Neil Jones

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 08:13:39 am »
I'd be tempted to give your Nomad a proactive coating of ACF 50 if it's available in the states. I know a few lads that ride motorcycles all year round a swear by the stuff for keeping the dreaded rust at bay
Neil

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 08:30:04 am »
Quote
I'd be tempted to give your Nomad a proactive coating of ACF 50 if it's available in the states.
'Sure worth considering, Neil. Aircraft Spruce has it. I've ordered framebuilding materials from them here in the States and found them reliable to deal with: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acf50.php Brochure here: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/ACF-50-BROCHURE.pdf

Not sure if it would render a glossy finish on matte black or not...

Best,

Dan.

NZPeterG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • It's Great to Be Alive! Again! Go Cycle. . . . . .
    • Kiwi Pete's Cycling Safari
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 09:23:01 am »
Hi All
Well wait until the new touring group set comes out from Sram!
1 x 11 it is stronger, simpler, Old (1970 Degas) and works great 

Pete....
The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common[

http://kiwipetesadventures.tumblr.com/

http://kiwipetescyclingsafari.blogspot.co.nz/

Looked after by Chris @ http://www.puresports.co.nz/
For all your Rohloff and Thorn Bicycle's in NZ

horizon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 77
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 01:34:08 pm »
Hi Zoslen!

there is hope better manufacturing (i.e. manufacturing to tighter tolerances) will result in 10-sp drivetrains as long-lived as 9-sp.



Dan.

Dan: this may be true. But that better engineering for longevity has two costs: firstly, it is probably more expensive thereby making cycling more expensive and less accessible in an ordinary sort of way. Secondly, we don't want parts that rely on good engineering and manufacturing: we want parts that anybody can make in a small workshop or factory that rely on their intrinsic design simplicity for their strength, usefulness and either cheap replaceability or longevity. Shimano, who have done so much for cycling, now seem to be going down a dark and hellish road to protect their market leadership and want to take us with them, whether we like it or not. It isn't the way forward, it's a dead end of high value bikes, fashion and marketing.    

moodymac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 06:32:30 pm »
JimK,

Don't know if this will help, but here goes.  A few decades ago I commuted back and fourth from work on a motorcycle.  This was in Delaware where high humidity, rain and snow are common place.  I took a tarp that would fit and sprayed one side with upholstery glue.  Placed a cut to size (or two) piece(s) of thin felt on the glued side and lightly pressed it into place.  The bike was always in the weather when I was not riding it.  Always keeping it tarp-ed both at work and home when not in use.  Never had any rust/condensation problems.

Got the idea from a fiberglass boat I once owned.  The cabin actually rained in certain situations.  Glued felt to the inside surface and stayed nice and dry.

Tom

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8229
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 07:36:01 pm »
Quote
Got the idea from a fiberglass boat I once owned.  The cabin actually rained in certain situations.  Glued felt to the inside surface and stayed nice and dry.
That's a brilliant idea, Mac, using the felt to make a thermal break and thereby reduce condensation.

'Sure would be a dandy solution for Jim's needs.

Best,

Dan.

NZPeterG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • It's Great to Be Alive! Again! Go Cycle. . . . . .
    • Kiwi Pete's Cycling Safari
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 07:52:19 pm »
Look All,
There is less and less 9 speed parts being made.
The parts are being update all the time and do not work with most of the older parts!
This is a pain every day at my work as some people (like me) like top end 9 speed! but there is no more top end 9 speed parts being made any more....
Shifter etc are all old stock.

Pete...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 04:18:16 am by NZPeterG »
The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common[

http://kiwipetesadventures.tumblr.com/

http://kiwipetescyclingsafari.blogspot.co.nz/

Looked after by Chris @ http://www.puresports.co.nz/
For all your Rohloff and Thorn Bicycle's in NZ

jags

  • Guest
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 10:57:23 pm »
Hmmm, or maybe time for a chainglider???

or a house with a warm garage  8)

peter jenkins

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
Re: 10sp Thorns
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2013, 04:42:19 am »
15 to 18 years (and 4 changes of address) ago constraints of space meant my Trek 7000 lived on an outside veranda for about 3 years.

This was in Sydney where it's not as humid as where I live now, but still reasonably so, and where it rained any time of the year.

There was really no external sign to indicate that the bike was banished from the house; minor surface rust on derailleur adjusting screws and the stem cap bolt was about the lot.

It suffered more when it was garaged one block from the ocean. (along with my other bikes)

Cheers,

pj