Author Topic: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.  (Read 2997 times)

AdamMortlock

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Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« on: November 13, 2013, 01:52:55 pm »
Hi guys,

Thanks to you guys for responding to my earlier posts,

I was hoping that we could have an open discussion on this thread about experiences you have had with 'dazzling' front lights from other cyclist’s lights coming towards you.
It has come to my attention from my research that although the new amazing really bright 2,000+ lumen lights are really, really good for cyclists who are travelling on dark roads and tracks etc... it can cause quite a dazzle to people approaching in the other direction and the full output is not always needed on a ride.

I know there are lights that are dimmable and have different settings (that you may press manually, during or at the beginning of the ride), but I think there may scope to improve on this system in a wide multitude of ways to make lights cleverer and automatic in response to the surrounding environment.

Any thoughts/ experiences and other information you wouldn't mind sharing I would be really appreciative if you would discuss this with me as I want to make sure I understand how you guys as potential users for such a product, feel about this!

(Can I just say please only contribute if you have something constructive to say (positive negative. Don’t just come on here to have a personal feud with me.)

Thanks guys, and I look forward to talking with you all on this topic.

Adam. (BA Product Design student) :)

Andre Jute

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 04:53:12 pm »
You might want to look at the group newsgroup rec.bicycle.tech, Adam. The environment isn't as nice as here -- in fact, it's plain nasty -- but there's consistent discussion of this topic and a considerable spread of opinion, including one chap, Scharf, who runs a netsite advocating round lamps. You'll soon discover who the obsessed idiots are and who knows what they're talking about (me), so without further ado, I open the door to the animal cage.


Andre Jute

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 05:11:47 pm »
Lamps are a contentious matter, and reliable opinion, firm facts, even independent tests are very hard to come by. For instance, the oft-quoted tests by one German magazine are straightforward selling tools for one manufacturer of dynamos and lamps, Schmidt Maschinenbau, the makers of the SON dynamo and Edelux lamps, the test being conducted by an employee of Schmidt.

The next problem you'll run into is relativity and common assumptions. People, including I'm sorry to say me, shorthand facts and opinions that are held in common by most of the likely readers of posts on, to take only one instance, a forum like this. You'll for instance find me saying, "The BUMM first series Cyo is the best bicycle lamp in the world." It is absolutely untrue, but nobody pulls me up on it because they all understand all the qualifications, those qualifications including your particular interest, that the Cyo has a designed and well-implemented horizontally flat upper cutoff. But, beyond that, the Cyo's beam is too narrow, and the cutoff is too low, for it even to approach the "best lamp in the world".

German laws, made decades ago for reasons that were even then passing into the dustbin of history, and now totally irrelevant, have misshapen bicycle lamp development. People who lack the wherewithal to put their brains in gear conclude from the fact that a lamp is "legal" that is therefore necessarily good. It doesn't follow. The first series Cyo, for instance, is just the best of the road-legal lamps; how far it is from sufficient may be judged from the fact that it was the first lamp, despite the claims of the BUMM Faithful for previous BUMM lamps (which objectively were dangerous), to be adequate.

A new Cyo is coming out which is claimed to improve on the intervening Cyos, which were steps backwards.

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What would a sufficient lamp be? Simple. It would be a car-strength lamp operating off a hub dynamo, with a dimswitch. How much cyclists are still regarded as second-class citizens may be judged from the fact that when BUMM recently provided a manner dim/bright function in the Luxos, the rider had no control over its operation. That is not good enough.

As you can see, you can't discuss lamps without touching on the larger metaphysical issues of cycling, in particular whether the cycle is another vehicle or the cyclist is a second class citizen to the motorist.

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Actually, my private opinion is that the best compromise of light where required and considerate road use is achieved by a pair of switched MR16 LED lamps, a high powered one arranged like a car's high beams, a lower-powered one pointed downwards and to the left (where one drives on the left).

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AdamMortlock

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 05:26:04 pm »
Thanks Andre,

For that in depth post, I really appreciate it.

I personally see cyclists (being a regular road cyclist myself) as an equal vehicle to a car.

You say your private opinion would be to have a duel beam light set-up where there is a high beam and low beam using a pair of MR16 LED lamps, just like how a car does it! Do you know of any lights that currently do something like this?

You mentioned about the BUMM Luxos where the user didn't have control over it? do you mean the dimming?

Thanks,

Adam :)

Danneaux

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 05:57:37 pm »
Hi Adam!

I moved your topic to the Lighting and Electronics board to keep similar discussions together and to give you the best chance at receiving cogent, relevant replies most suited to your needs.

You may find some of the prior discussions on this particular board helpful in your quest. One in particular comes to mind, "Complaint from Motorist" with regard to bright oncoming bicycle lightig: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3829.0

I hope this helps and wish you the best of luck in your studies.

Best,

Dan.

AdamMortlock

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 07:05:21 pm »
Ahh, thanks Danneaux, and yeah that thread is useful thanks!

Andre Jute

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 07:06:41 pm »
You say your private opinion would be to have a duel beam light set-up where there is a high beam and low beam using a pair of MR16 LED lamps, just like how a car does it! Do you know of any lights that currently do something like this?

By "private opinion" I mean that I don't recommend it to cyclists in general because irresponsible cyclists would misuse it.

I have such a setup that I made myself. I used it for years, and had superior lamps to every other cyclist for very little money. The MR16 and MR11 lamps are available from suppliers to decorators, Roma brand tomato puree cans to glue them into are free from your kitchen, and handlebar fittings came off cheap bicycle lamps from the poundshop.

I'm not aware of anything like it being sold for cyclists, though an Electron set of two lamp I had, one strong, one weak, could be independently arranged and switched. It wasn't built that way for dimming but to save the battery.

You mentioned about the BUMM Luxos where the user didn't have control over it? do you mean the dimming?

I described it as "a manner [of] dim/bright function in the Luxos" because it isn't precisely a dimming function, more a panoramic function, a widening of the low beam. But, if it works, and is under the control of the rider, it would be a step in right direction; there is no earthly reason any more except the habit of restricting the light available to cyclists as second class citizens for not giving cyclists a dim/bright function, and furthermore under their own control. There are some owners of the Luxos U on the forum who'll be able to give you a description and an evaluation.

brummie

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 08:35:34 pm »
Interesting thread. Nobody likes to be dazzled & it can be dangerous Andre's main beam & dip is a good idea, especially if riding rural roads - I think USE Strada LED light has this function (??) I personally run the Schmidt / Edlux combo on my Thorn & a Schmidt / B&M Cyo on the Winter Fixie - I find both are more than adequate, I will also use a 300 lumen LED ( with a narrow focussed beam ) for fast descent pointing a little further down the road...I think the dazzling problem is mostly due to cyclists using 'Off-road' high lumen lights which have a wide spread of illumination.

Do bicycle lights really need to be as bright as car lights, given that we a generally riding slower?  I would argue bicycle lights certainly need to be as visible as car lights & some of the latest LED's with a pulsating pattern as opposed to flashing certainly help 'identify' cyclists on the road.
 

Relayer

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Re: Front ‘Dazzling’ light discussion – University project.
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 10:19:03 pm »
Hi Adam

I run a Supernova E3 Pro 2 headlight which is "assymetric" which I was led to believe is designed to prevent dazzling oncoming road users.  I am sure if you research assymetric headlights further this could be useful for you.

regards.
Jim