Author Topic: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project  (Read 3131 times)

AdamMortlock

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Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« on: October 15, 2013, 01:49:46 pm »
Hello again fellow cyclists!

A few days ago I placed a ‘General cycling questionnaire’ on this forum and the amount of feedback I got shocked me (hit the 100 response limit in a matter of hours). Thank you to everyone that filled it in! This has helped me assess the current market and given me an insight in the potential problems cyclists, especially touring cyclists still have.

Now I have another one!   In this questionnaire I would like to establish in more detail problems that touring cyclists face on longer tours where they may be away for more than a day. It is linked below.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/98NQX5Q

Thank you so much if you completed it!

Adam.

AdamMortlock

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2013, 01:50:55 pm »
Also guys I will keep checking back on the forum! so if you want to talk about anything in here I will always reply! and be happy to discuss things thanks!!!

AdamMortlock

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 02:00:45 pm »
RESPONSE LIMIT HIT!!!! I WON'T GET THE QUESTIONNAIRES EVEN IF YOU FILL IT OUT, IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY BEST TO POST IT ON THE FORUM I WILL READ IT!!!!!

Thanks so much guys! I got some really, really useful information and it seems a lot of you guys have problems with;

Bikes on trains!
Camping!
Finding fresh foods/ drinks!

And many more! I will analyse all the results! I will be in the forums doily still so will be nice to keep talking to you all and there may be more to come in the next couple weeks! am not just here for my research ^_^

Thanks again,

Adam.


Problems with carrying (transporting) bicycles on a train,
Problems with pannier carrying when off the bicycle
Problems with when visitng tourist attractions the feeling that panniers are not safe left on the bicycle
Problems with camping
Problems with accessing Fresh food and Drinks

John Saxby

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 09:24:24 pm »
Hi again Adam,

A bit slow off the mark on completing your Touring cyclists questionnaire, but when I saw that you may need more on "Problems with bikes on trains", I thought I should give you the vicarious benefit of problems I had last year (Sept/Oct 2012) with trains in Europe.

Here's a link to my journal on travelling from Amsterdam to Vienna by bike (with some short train journeys within that), and then some more extensive travels by train with my bike in a box:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/2012Rhine-Danubetrip

You don't have to read the whole journal -- simply check the Contents for the concluding comments on bikes on trains.

Cheers,

J.


AdamMortlock

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 10:00:27 pm »
Thanks John,

I had a look at the "still looking back" section, and like you say it seems stupid and un-logical that bikes are only ok on some trains when they are in a bike box when really it wouldn't be too difficult to design a compact storage system for bicycles on trains... And I can relate how annoying it might be in a busy place to find you have to jump through loops to get on the train.

I would be interested in your opinion on panniers, in respect of getting them on/off the bike, having them safe on the bike when you are away from the bike and just general experience you have with them, as you seem to have done an amazing amount of cycling.

Looks like an interesting journal, when I get some time I will have a read through it more, (working 8am - 10pm everyday at the minute)

If you commute by bicycle I have just placed a commuter questionnaire up which would be awesome if you filled it out

Thanks

Adam.

il padrone

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2013, 09:26:06 am »
Problems with carrying (transporting) bicycles on a train,

Travelling with trains seems to be nearly always a bit fraught. In Italy one of the worst things (with a fully-loaded tourer) were the stations that had stairs (only) to get to the underpasses to platforms. We always felt a bit stressed and vulnerable having to remove panniers and leave then away from the bike, even for just 30 seconds. It was time consuming and tiresome. Then there are the trains with stair access to the carriages and constricted entries, and the lack of signing about where, or even whether, the trains had bike storage compartments.

Then there are the PT authorities who want to run trains with minimal bike space eg. two bikes per two or three cars, and deny carriage of bikes on replacement buses; or on regular service buses that are coaches with HUGE luggage bays. "You carry passenger luggage? My bicycle is my luggage....... and not too much larger than some passengers' capacious baggage"


Problems with pannier carrying when off the bicycle

This is not often a huge problem as if it is a distance of any length I will always carry them on the bike. Off the bike the panniers go in the tent, or into the hotel room.

Problems with when visitng tourist attractions the feeling that panniers are not safe left on the bicycle

Outside of the big cities I have never found this to be an issue eg. in San Gimignano we parked our fully-loaded bikes in the piazza for two hours and went wandering about the town seeing the sights. Everything was fine while we were away. The bikes were locked with a rear-wheel ring lock, and there was nothing obvious left hanging out of panniers or strapped on, of course.

In the bigger cities we left our bikes safe in our hotel room or their storage room and toured sights by foot or PT. In Australia's big cities the bags would probably be quite OK..... for a short-medium time span, but I'd always have the bike securely locked. A bike with heavy bags is rarely going to be a theft-magnet. They'll choose the bling carbon roadie by preference  ;)


Problems with camping

I have few problems with camping, but big problems with camping grounds that cannot provide decent basic facilities. Here in Australia (where campground facilities are often very good) it is still the case that the best campgrounds are a nice treed clearing with a scenic view in the bush... even when you have to dig your own dunnie  :o :D

The Italian concept of providing a bar and restaurant in the campground, but then you have to bring-your-own toilet paper, is anathema to me. Downright insulting.

Problems with accessing Fresh food and Drinks

I don't find a great deal of problems with this. In other countries it is always going to be a case of "when in Rome do as the Romans do" though.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:14:06 pm by il padrone »

John Saxby

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2013, 10:39:10 pm »
Thanks, Adam.  Appreciate your kind words about my time touring, but there are lots of others on the Thorn Forum with a great deal more experience than me, and more still on crazyguyonabike.com (where, BTW, you could get a lot of commentary, either by opening a thread, or just by doing some searches within the site.)

Some observations about panniers:

1)   I use Arkel panniers, and have found them to be excellent -- durable, very well-made, plenty big enough for my requirements, easy to mount and take off the bike, and good value.  I bought them because they have lotsa pockets, and because it doesn't rain much where I live.  And, they're made in Québec's Eastern Townships, and I buy local whenever I can. (Maybe if I lived in a high-rainfall region, I'd buy Ortliebs.)  Some people buy Ortliebs because they don't have lotsa pockets.
  
      I have the T-42 rear panniers, and a pair of T-28 front panniers, i.e.,  70 litres capacity in the panniers.  My small h/bar bag is 7.5 ltrs.  In my experience, Arkel's h/bar mount for the h/bar bag is better than most, and maybe the best.  (This is not only my opinion. The service rep in a big German bike shop, looking at the h/b mount, said to me, "Ooooh -- that's good. We don't have anything like that here."  germans tend to be sparing in their compliments about others' engineering.)

      I usually add to these, an Outdoor Research 15-ltr drybag on my rear rack.

2)   Like Padrone, I've had no problems with security for my bike and panniers in smaller towns.  I chose not to leave it unattended in crowded centres, e.g., near the train station in Köln.  As a rule, however, I don't let the bike out of my sight--especially if it's unloaded--and when it's loaded, I rarely lock it up. for visiting tourist attractions -- depends.  My general approach in a larger centre is to set up a base camp, or stay in a B & B/whatever, and explore on foot; or at least try to find a lock-up of some kind for my bike.  On the whole, I've found that rural areas, small towns, and villages are less of a potential security problem than most big cities.  

3)    Pannier wear, and attachment wear:  Beyond the considerations above, including my own parochial biases, I bought the Arkels on the strength of their reputation for durability and ease of use. They've more than justified that decision.  I've had no problems at all in the three years of so I've owned them.  (Not much rainy-day usage, either :-) and on the few occasions when I have ridden with them in the rain, the combination of removable covers on the outside and my standard practice of OR waterproof stuffsacks on the inside has kept everything dry.)  But again, I'd likely opt for waterproof panniers if I lived in Northern Europe, Washington State, BC's Lower Mainland, parts of Nova Scotia & Newfoundland, parts of the UK & Ireland, etc.

4)    Mounting the panniers on my racks:  I have a Topeak rear rack and an Old Man Mountain Low-rider front rack.   The topeak is nearly 10 years old, has given me no problems, and I never even think about it (my indicator of reliability).  The T-42 Arkels usually go onto the Topeak one-handed:  I tilt the hook on the inside of the bottom of the pannier towards inverted V of the rack with my knee, and use one hand to hook the cam-clips onto the top bar of the rack.  Remove just by lifting with one hand.

       Mounting the front panniers on the OMM rack has been more of a problem.  without going into the details, I had to do quite a lot of cutting, filing and drilling to make sure everything mates as it should.  I was surprised by this, as Arkel sells the OMM  to go with their bags.  No problem--the alloy is easy enough to work with, but I'm sure that lots of people wouldn't want the bother, and may not have the tools and workshop space.  Now, it's very much a two-handed operation to fit the panniers' fixing hook into its hole in the OMM's central vertical strut, and I have to use both hands to ensure the cam-clips fit on to OMM's top bar. Unhooking them at the top is easy enough, but removing the hook is fiddly enough that a thief could not do a grab-and-run!

5)   Carrying panniers off the bike:  Mine all come with 2" web straps, as well as sturdy rubber-padded grab handles, so they're not difficult to carry around.  Unless I'm lugging the bike up a narrow staircase, however, I just wheel the bike around with the panniers in place.

hope this is helpful, Adam.

Cheers,

J.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:15:29 pm by John Saxby »

AdamMortlock

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 09:10:39 am »
Thanks John and Pardone

John,

Thanks for all that information, it's a lot of useful information that is helping me to make decisions and help me in my overall research, so thanks for that! I am on the craztguyonabike website so will just keep looking through that it does look useful and will make a post later. I feel that the general feeling that touring cyclists have, which is that nothing is really a problem, everything is good and new things do not need designing as current problems are just the way things are. (not understanding that if no-one asked these questions 6 months ago there wouldn't be today's products on the shelf)

I don't think people understand I am trying to find more of a market gap into which new products can fit! (this is probably my fault also) which brings me onto my next point! Is there actually potential for a new product for touring cyclists? from what I have heard am not sure there is (which is why I have done questionnaires for commuters and people who use their bicycles to go shopping) so  I suppose I hope something comes up in there as time is moving on fast. The main problems people have with current products are putting panniers on/off the bike ( to which there is solutions, but are often more expensive, Development of a cheap easy to remove pannier could be an option, but wouldn't appeal to touring cyclists) Most of the problems touring cyclists have and what I have when am cycling on my road bike for a day is external issues such as road users, roads, trains, weather, hills etc..... :( Thanks for all your feedback though  :) and am happy to keep talking about it (although this might have come across as a rant) Adam.

Pardone,

Like I said to John there doesn't seem to be any problems you have to which a Product Designer can solve! Thanks for taking the time to fill out my questionnaire and send a message on this thread though!



Both.

I think as I only have till December 16th to come up with a product need and establish concepts I need to move on from touring cyclists! If either of you are bicycle commuters I would like it if you filled out my commuting questionnaire which is on this forum and if you guys use your bikes to go shopping then probably later today there will be a questionnaire up for that also.

il padrone

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 05:12:26 am »
Ah, a product design! Hmm....

Many of the key product design ideas are already being worked on by current producers eg. Ortlieb's panniers, Rohloff IGH hub etc

Other new ideas that are handy for cyclists are not cycle-specific eg. Helinox Chair One folding chair, and the wide range of new camping stove ideas that come onto the market. Ideas for cycle-specific 'solutions' often come a-cropper with the weight issue. A good example was the Australian design (shown on our ABC New Inventors program) for a bicycle luggage-trailer that included a built in tent. The trailer and tent without luggage weighed something like 20kgs  :o

A great product solution would be some way to link panniers together to form a luggage trolley. But this would inevitably involve an alloy structure and wheels that would weigh extra and be a pain to carry. Many years ago Karrimor tried to market panniers that could be used as a backpack. They didn't succeed, as panniers demand a rigid back for stability, but a backpack demands a flexible shaped back for comfort. A basic incompatibility.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:13:57 am by il padrone »

John Saxby

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 12:45:50 am »
Adam, a few more thoughts on All This -

Quote
Is there actually potential for a new product for touring cyclists?

Extending the thread in Padrone's observation:  There are examples of existing products which can usefully be tweaked, adjusted, etc. 

For example:  I've had a lot of problems keeping my rear derailleur in good adjustment for a reasonable length of time (& I seem to be not alone with this problem ... equally, lots of other touring cyclists don't have the problem, or live with it.)  So, I think there's a market for a quality 7- or 8-speed RD, running a wider chain, which is less sensitive to fine (mal)adjustments.  But, how big is the market for such a device? Touring cyclists are a minority-within-a-minority, especially so in Canada, for example, and I think also in the US, although as usual, the absolute numbers there are at least ten times greater than here.

For many other products, there's a good item or two available (Arkel, Ortlieb, and Carradice panniers), and often, there's much more choice of good-quality items than there was even a few years ago.

A further consideration is that, for many touring cyclists, simplicity is one of the most desirable--even the defining attribute--of a bicycle.  (This, even though many of us are gear and gadget freaks...)  And, weight is critical.  Thus, Colin Chapman's guideline for Lotus back in the day, still holds for bikes:  "Simplify and add lightness".  Hence, there's an inbuilt check on complexity, weight, and electronics, the latter being The Avenue of The Day in current automotive design. (The Rohloff is complex, for sure, as well as pricey, so has to offer something special and stay within reasonable bounds of weight, to have a market.)

To answer your question, quoted above, then:  No "trick new product" stands out for me.  I don't think I've ever found myself saying, "Dang! I wish I had an XXX" (-- aside, of course, from an RD that holds its adjustment.)  (And now I think/hope I've found an answer to that issue.)

The changes we might identify, then, are likely to be incremental improvements in existing products.  Maybe that's my lack of lateral thinking, or my fairly superficial knowledge of bike design. But, faced with this scan of the horizon, and including Padrone's observations,  I find myself doing what I usually do -- checking the premise:  maybe we're asking the wrong question?  In this case, I think that perhaps we are asking the wrong question. So, rather than looking for new products, better designs of existing ones, etc.--i.e., gaps in the market, or niches that could be better filled--I'd say we need to look beyond "products" narrowly understood.

There are issues of design that bedevil/confront touring cyclists, for sure.  But, from my viewpoint, they're issues of design and investment in transport infrastructure -- and this takes us into Big Issues of political economy, such as the Hegemony of the Car, the critical relations of power and interest among the state, the oil industry, and the auto and trucking industries, etc.  The point here is not to introduce things so big that they pre-empt discussion, or so big that you can't solve them in time for your mid-December deadline (!!), but rather to highlight the limits of what market interventions & product design can usefully do to meet touring cyclists' needs & wishlists.  Putting it differently: by looking at the broader social and political environment, and trying to act at that level, we may be able to reshape the "enabling environment" for product design related to cycling, and cycle-touring in particular.

I do not for a moment suggest this will be easy or straightforward.  Re-thinking The Transport Question in modern capitalist societies will take us beyond what markets can do well--generate products for individual purchase/use/consumption; and a quick scan of public policy around countries nearby, tells me that governments and business seem unable, unwilling, or uninterested to go beyond what markets can do. 

Re-working i.e., redesigning and reinvesting in) transport infrastructure, and the cultures of using that, will mean a major commitment of of public resources, as well as private.  So, when I think of what a Canadian touring cyclist like myself really needs, and what would most allow me to use the exemplary products now on the market (some of which I'm privileged to have), the conclusion I always reach is: investment in cycling infrastructure.  There's not a uniform recipe for that, of course -- the specifics will vary greatly, even in a region like Eastern Ontario, where I live. But beyond my take on things as a regular cyclist, the biggest single reason offered by people here in Ottawa, as to why they don't cycle, or cycle more, is that it's just not safe enough. 

The way I'd reframe the issue, then, mindful of your deadline, and the fact that you're wrestling with the question of (technical) product design, is as follows: If and when we have some serious investment in cycling infrastructure, sufficient to make a qualitative change in the enabling environment for cycling (and in this instance, touring cycling), then we will have a major expansion of the touring-cycling population and market, and with that will come a demand for a much wider range of cycling products.  Some of the pointers to that yet-to-be-realized future already exist in Northern Europe; the difference in North America, and in Australia too, will be that the distances are much greater, and population densities generally much less (except for parts of the US). Hence, a redefined cycling culture, infrastructure, and market will have to reflect that.

So, as one who's done his share of social-science research, and at the risk of sounding glib, I think you have a conclusion for your study:  "Not a whole lot of demand for trick new products out there in cycle-touring-land, but there is a major need/wish for a big investment in reshaping the landscape of Transport in Modern Society, literally as well as figuratively; that's where our design thinking should go; and my next research proposal will help to take us there.  Read on ..."

Hope this helps, and doesn't just confuse things or create a Great Big Blue Thing with no handles to grab hold of.

Cheers,

John

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Touring Cyclists Questionnaire - University Major Project
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2013, 07:09:48 pm »
A great product solution would be some way to link panniers together to form a luggage trolley. But this would inevitably involve an alloy structure and wheels that would weigh extra and be a pain to carry.

Funny you should mention this Pete, as on my recent Euro touring holiday (from which I've been back a month and as yet have not had time to report), I recognized a glaring need for a simple way to clip or strap two panniers together to effectively make one piece of luggage for checking on to planes and trains. (I wanted to avoid the excess baggage charges.)

My solution (which is almost finished being fabricated in my shed - photos shortly) is a piece of alloy rod (sourced from an old Trek rack now surplus to requirements) to which I can attach both panniers (with the clips offset from one another). The rod is drilled and tapped at each end, and fitted with lightweight chain covered in tubing, to act as a single handle for the combined package. The pannier handles (Ortleib) are tucked away, so as not to be grabbed by inexperienced handlers, as this would obviously release the bags from the rod. The bottom of the bags are currently still strapped together, so they don't flop apart, but I'm working on a better solution for that, as well.

I also second your's and John's comments on train travel with bikes - it ranged from the sublime (regional trains in Austria and Germany) to the ridiculous (German ICE trains take no full size bikes, period. No amount of bagging or boxing works, apparently.) The Eurostar service was great - book your bike (extra charge), show up one hour early and hand it over to the very helpful staff in the freight office, and pick it up at the other end in perfect condition! Of course, you have to remove the panniers and bar bags (5 pieces each, in our case), which is where strapping the panniers together came in.

The First Great Western service in England was good too, if a little nerve wracking. All in all, it should have been far easier to travel Europe's excellent trains with bikes, and left us thinking about touring on Bromptons next time!

BTW, we used CTC bags to fly the bikes (large clear plastic bags you can purchase from Wiggle). This was by far the best solution - no disassembly beyond pedals (the n'lock stems we use make the handlebar turning routine), and no storing of bags or sourcing of boxes to worry about. The bags weigh less than a kilo and fit in a pannier when folded, and at $15 a pop, you don't care if they only survive a couple of flights. The bikes arrived completely intact, with the minor exception of my rear rack being bent slightly off centre from Sydney to London. It was no issue while cycling, but I had to remove it from the bike to bend it back. Other than that, not a scratch to either bike, including with a stopover in Singapore for a few days, where we left the bagged bikes in left luggage at Changi, and checked them back in for the onward journey.

More posts to come - with pikkies!

Sam