Author Topic: Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider, Surly SS & Rohloff)  (Read 64701 times)

David Simpson

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... at 200 miles a day ...

Is Matt aware of this requirement?

- Dave

Matt2matt2002

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Is Matt aware of this requirement?

- Dave

 :o
My tour is along the Pamir Highway.
2,000 miles over 2 months. So 200 miles per day would be too fast.
 ;)
Rough milage calculations are 5 days cycling a week at 60 miles per day.
Equals 2000/300 = 7 weeks.
We are cutting it a bit fine so are prepared to catch a lift on the home run, which is a repeat of our outward leg.

I'll start a tour a tour page here to keep folks up to date.

Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Andre Jute

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Is Matt aware of this requirement?

Aw, Dave, I wasn't going to let on to Matt until it was too late.

:o
My tour is along the Pamir Highway.
2,000 miles over 2 months. So 200 miles per day would be too fast.
 ;)
Rough milage calculations are 5 days cycling a week at 60 miles per day.
Equals 2000/300 = 7 weeks.
We are cutting it a bit fine so are prepared to catch a lift on the home run, which is a repeat of our outward leg.

I'll start a tour a tour page here to keep folks up to date.

That's a magnificent tour, Matt. We'll be hanging on your lips, trying to stow away in your panniers.

Andre Jute

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FINAL REPORT, 26 April 2015

The test was aborted at 3562km on 26 April 2015 when the Bafang QSWXK front motor on my bike gave up the ghost and was replaced by a Bafang BBS01 mid-motor (on which the 38T Surly chainring couldn't be made to fit), the new motor in a new test receiving its own brand new KMCX8 chain.

Just a reminder. The purpose of the test was to run a KMC X8 chain 4506km on the factory lube, inside a Hebie Chainglider, with a Surly stainless steel chainring and the normal Rohloff sprocket at the rear. The 4506km was set as a target by the previous chain, also KMC X8, running in a Utopia Country chaincase (similar to the Chainglider), but with Oil of Rohloff added every 500 or 1000km, reaching 4506km before visible "stretch" was found (less than 0.5mm). The ulterior, overall motive of the test was not to save a few Euro on chains but as a step towards a near-zero maintenance bike.


A gilmpse inside the famous Jute Laboratories.
That's the 0.75mm side of the gauge, so the chain wear, eyeballed, could be around 0.5mm

The KMC X8 chain ran on the factory lube inside the Hebie Chainglider together with a Surly 38T stainless steel chainring and a 16T Rohloff OEM sprocket, without any other lube being added at any time, or any cleaning being performed, for 3562km before the test was aborted, as described above. During this time the wear on the chain, measured as "stretch", was less than 0.75mm, eyeballed on the rough gauge as around 0.5mm. There is no doubt in my mind that the KMC X8 would have made 4506km by the time it required replacement at 0.75mm "stretch".

However, I'm happy to replace chains, the cheapest component in my transmission, at the first sign of measureable wear, which is around 0.5mm, so in that sense the factory lube fell short of the same chain under roughly the same circumstances serviced with Oil of Rohloff, 3562km to 4506km.

No excessive wear of the Surly stainless steel chainring or the Rohloff sprocket was observed. In fact, there is no wear observable. (This is very unlike my previous installations of Shimano Nexus transmissions, in which in around a 1000m/1600km I would use up a chain, a sprocket and a crankset because the chainring was in unit with the crank.)

The late, great Sheldon Brown once said that the factory lube was good for 700 miles. In my two experiments the factory lube plus Oil of Rohloff chain went 944km further than the factory-lube only chain. That, if scaled up to the full 0.75mm wear, is pretty close to Sheldon's 700 miles!

Now, I know, some of you think that 3500km and 4500km on a chain isn't much chop, the mileage of a wrecker. But I'm over the moon with these mileages. Considering that previously I rarely got over a thousand miles (1600km) out of a chain, two and three times that distance per chain is exceptional.

I'm very happy to declare these two experiments, 8068km altogether, a success.

They have confirmed my belief that the only enclosed chaincase that I can in good conscience recommend is the Hebie Chainglider, that KMC makes high commendable chains, and that Oil of Rohloff is the light chain oil of choice. I suspect that another thing they indicate is that a precision chainline is worth setting up with repayment for the effort in extra chain mileage.

With thanks to all who helped with advice, and to everyone for their patience in waiting for these results.

This is Andre Jute signing off with only slightly oily hands.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 12:10:42 pm by Andre Jute »

Matt2matt2002

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Many thanks Andre.
I am using a Hebie with Surely Stainless front ring on my Raven Rholoff.
Only had the new chain KMC x1 and new sprockets on for a few hundred miles.
No lube added. Factory lube left on. Fitted all 3/ parts at the same time.
Had 2 internal inspections and find the chain pretty clean and tidy.

I go away on a long tour at the end of the month so will report back in August on state of play.

I can't imagine riding without a covered chain now.
Makes so much sense to me.
One Nomad rider I told about my set up, said he liked to see what his chan was doing at all times!
I told him it was quite easy to pop off the Hebie but he wasn't sold.

Thanks again

Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Andre Jute

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I can't imagine riding without a covered chain now.

Quote of the week, that one.

One Nomad rider I told about my set up, said he liked to see what his chan was doing at all times!
I told him it was quite easy to pop off the Hebie but he wasn't sold.

Cycling is the last refuge of the luddites. Very traditional and conservative. You took up the Chainglider idea so easily because you're new to cycling, Matt. In fact, the number of experienced cyclists on this forum who took up the Chainglider is probably very much higher than anywhere else, because for some reason the membership is much more progressive than most other groups of cyclists.

I pass the baton to you guys. It'll be a couple of years before I report on my new experiment (when I decide what it is!), so I look forward keenly to your reports, starting with Matt's long tour when he goes bush this summer.

John Saxby

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All sorts of old sayings can be adapted to Life with a 'Glider:  "Outta sight, outta mind."  "No fuss, no muss."  "A chain's only as strong as its 'glider."  Etc., etc. ;-)

Matt2matt2002

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Thanks for your kind comments Andre.

Your last picture shows clearly your spoke nipple rim arrangement.
On comparing to my own, yours is much neater.
Could you please give us the spec?
My own spokes do not sit as neatly into the rims.

Matt
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Andre Jute

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In order to avoid censure by the thread purity police, I replied to you, Matt, in a separate thread at http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=10979..
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 07:05:49 pm by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Quote
In order to avoid censure by the thread purity police, I replied to you...
Well done, Andre. Future generations will thank you.

 :D

All the best,

Dan.

Neil Jones

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Thanks for making your chaincase experiment such an interesting thread Andre, I'm sure you contributed to many Thorn owners purchasing a Chainglider for their bike.

I'm still running the KMC X1 chain on my unprotected RST, it's now done 4,425 miles and still showing 50% wear. it seemed to stretch quite quickly at first, maybe it was because I reversed the chainring and sprocket at the same time and there was a fair bit of tooth/chain misalignment for the first 120 miles or so but it soon settled down, it is totally silent now.i think I could well get 6,000 miles out of it which would be slightly better than the SRAM PCS890, I will then but another X1 on and run the ring, chain and sprocket into the ground, my forecast is at approximately 22,000. I think my Dan like humming bird cadence probably helps preventing premature wear on the transmission.

Will keep you updated on how I get on and looking forward to your next experiment.

Regards,
Neil

Andre Jute

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Thanks, Neil. I look forward to your K1 reaching the big one, 10,000km.

il padrone

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OK. Chainglider blues about to set in :(

I bought a Hebie Chainglider soon after building up my Thorn Nomad, fitted it, then on the first ride discovered to my dismay that there was a shed-load of drag in the drivetrain. I removed it (to be able tio complete the ride without exhaustion setting in), and discovered a nice rub in the black anno on the Thorn double-sided chain-ring. I realised that I need a thinner steel ring. So now, after 25,000 kms I have worn out the three chains and the sprocket and chain-ring. New drivetrain has been fitted, complete with a Surly ss chainring.

Now I fitted the Chainglider up, but straight away discovered a whole lot of drag still evident in the drivetrain. Grrrrr!!!!  >:( ???

What am I doing wrong here? You folks running the Chainglider, are you just putting up with a greater drag-loading and getting really fit ?? Or is there some peculiarity to the fitting of the 'glider that I am just missing?

I would dearly love to run the thing to keep the drivetrain cleaner and even longer lasting, but as it stands, there is no way I would even consider riding with that sort of drivetrain drag.

Pete

Andre Jute

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If the chainring is thin enough (and the Surly stainless chainring is, by general experience), and the Chainglider is the correct size and has the Rohloff rear end, all that remains is an assembly problem. In general, the Chainglider script points to the outside of the bike, and the red button on the sprocket cover should be on the same side as the script; notice that the connecting section between the two arms just in front of the sprocket isn't symmetrical; if necessary check the assembly illustrations on Hebie's netsite.

1. Size. Check that you have a Rohloff rear end to the Chainglider. Check that the Chainglider front end matches the tooth count of your chainring.

2. Assembly. Check that all parts point their flat surface the right way. Try the bike. If you still find drag or noise:

3. Pull forward the connector that sits between the two chain-covering arms one notch so that it hangs in the two arms without touching any other part of the bike. Try the bike.

4. If there is still drag, pull the rear end of the Chainglider, that is, the sprocket cover, back one notch. It isn't supposed to touch the back of the sprocket.

5. Now it should be free-running. If there is noise, however low, especially a sort of rattle, just wriggle the back end of the Chainglider until it goes away. If wriggling doesn't fix it, try moving the back cover in or out only one notch on only one arm, and if that doesn't solve the problem put it back in the original position and try on the other arm.

A smooth-running Chainglider is pretty near silent, doesn't mark the inside of the Chainglider against the chain, and doesn't require any lubrication to work with the chain. As it says on the tin, it glides on the chain.

Good luck.

John Saxby

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Following Andre's notes, Pete, an observation from my experience:

On my Raven, I've used a 38 x 17 combination with a 'glider on my Raven for the past 18 months, with a Surly stainless 'ring at the front. The 'glider has been generally fine, with just one negative: the section covering the rear part of the chainring was binding a bit on the 'ring, just near the top where the cover met the upper arm of the 'glider, encasing the chain. The friction wasn't noisy, and I guess it didn't matter that much when the bike was under way--not as serious as yours sounds--but it was bugging me.

So, before the start of this season, I introduced a bit more slop into the system:  i wanted to try to clear up the friction just described, and also to get a bit more top-to-bottom and fore-and-aft play, especially around the chainring. So, I took all but one or two of the fixing tabs out of their slots around the chainring, thus loosening the two halves of the 'glider (i.e., the inside half, closest to the frame, and its mate on the outside.)  I then used hockey tape to hold the two halves in place, and to seal any gaps.  This generally worked well -- no crud got into the 'glider from the front, and I had the extra play that I wanted, both up & down and fore & aft.

A bodge like this might be more bother than it's worth to you.  Then again, it took me about 20 minutes max, and cost me nothing. (One could use black plastic electrician's tape, of course--hockey tape works better, though, as the adhesive works well across a wide range of temperatures. Also, it's wider.)

The one area where the binding persisted, however, was at the top of the portion covering the rear of chainring.  Dunno why, but when I took the 'glider off to replace the 38T ring with a smaller 36T ring, there was evidence of the binding -- the 'glider was a bit worn on the inside of both halves covering the rear of the 'ring, just below the junction with the upper arm of the 'glider.

Had I stayed with the 38T ring, I think I would have cut out the part of the 'glider encasing the rear of the chainring. That would expose the chain to some dust--a problem in Oz, I'd guess--but where I live (Eastern Ontario) the issue is rain & grit from the front wheel, so I think I could still get most of the protection I want from a modified 'glider.

I might still use the 'glider modified in this way, even though it looks weird with the 38T model mounted on a 36T ring.

What ring/sprocket combination do you have on your Nomad, btw?

As a final note: Matt Newton used his 'glider on his recent trek through the 'stans, on his Raven with a 38 x 17, and was very happy with its performance.  Matt seems to have had no issues similar to mine.

Good luck, John