Author Topic: Factory lube/chaincase experiment (X8 chain, Chainglider, Surly SS & Rohloff)  (Read 64239 times)

John Saxby

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Dan, d'you think that you might try my mod on your 38T 'glider (do you have one of those?) to adapt it to your 36T ring on the Nomad?  Might also be worth attempting the additional mod, relocating the cut-out piece further back, and securing with sugru, etc., to give you some extra coverage in very dusty conditions such as the Oregon Outback.

Danneaux

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Well, John, this is exactly the thing -- I need a Chainglider, perhaps more than most given the severe environments where I most often tour. I'll often see a mix of snow, crushed lava dust, blowing corrosive alkali dust, and rain from thundershowers for hours at a time. Despite a generously long mudflap on my front fender (mudguard), my chain does get dirtier than I like, and it would be nice to be freed from going at evening flossings with an old toothbrush and mascara brush intended for the purpose.

MartinF's suggestion is spot-on for workability, and I'd love to employ it, but economics argue against it. In Rohloff component lifespans, my drivetrain is just a kid, so buying a new BB, crankarms, chainring, and sprocket/carrier and adding a new (longer) chain *plus* Chainglider is a bit steep for me right now compared to buying just a Chainglider itself. I'm not legendarily tight, but I am frugal, so it goes against the grain to trash an otherwise usable setup just to get a chain case. On the other hand...it sure would be nice. The main thing I need to confirm *for myself* is the absolute silence or near-silence and drag-free operation of the Chainglider in normal use. I'm the guy who uses a freewheel grease injector on my other bikes so I can sneak up on bears and such, and prize a quiet bike above almost all other criteria. If it can't be rigged for near silent running, I'l have to pass despite the other benefits. I believe Andre, yet I'd love to have one to try or see firsthand to be *sure* before prising open my wallet for such a sizable purchase.

I've got a few other Danneaux'mad Projects which are past the nascent stage in the works: A sea change in bottle design will force me from my Blackburn B-52 "Bomber" bottle cages to a more flexible alternative; the Blackburn Outpost Cargo Cage is emerging as the leading candidate once the strap system is heavily modified. Then, there is the Trelock RS 451 Balloon NAZ ring-lock with 72mm tire/mud/playa clearance and both plug-in cable for touring and 8mm chain for at-home security -- and milling the offset mounting brackets for it, since the Nomad's generous 19mm OD stays are both too large and too far apart for direct mounting. Then there is the trickle-down of parts from the Nomad to the most-favored of the Rando bikes -- the AXA Defender and the Cyo R plus the installation of a long-held but unused B&M e-Werk on a custom billet mount with full internal frame wiring. Ah, the projects that await! It'll be Spring before I can attack many, as I am still dealing with matters related to my fathers estate.

Given this, the idea of buying "just" a Chainglider and modifying it appropriately is very appealing, as I don't yet own one. I'm also exploring the viability of jumping from a Hebie to the Idworx version, which is optimized for 35t, 39t, or 43t chainrings and is reported to provide excellent fit and service, but need to first nail down how it is mounted and if the claims would hold true in my application. If so, it could well be the "plug and play" solution I'm seeking. Looking closely at the illustration, it appears it might be co-located with the external bottom bracket's right-hand bearing cup, and it looks like it is the lower-rear portion that removes for wheel changes. I have many questions, including whether it could be adjusted to allow for different chainstay lengths, though I know it will accommodate an eccentric BB: http://www.idworx-bikes.de/de/informationen/parts.php

All the best,

Dan. (...whose hopes for a full-coverage chaincase spring eternal)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 09:10:35 am by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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MartinF's suggestion is spot-on for workability, and I'd love to employ it, but economics argue against it. In Rohloff component lifespans, my drivetrain is just a kid, so buying a new BB, crankarms, chainring, and sprocket/carrier and adding a new (longer) chain *plus* Chainglider is a bit steep for me right now compared to buying just a Chainglider itself.

That's a bit beyond a cheap experiment, even putting aside the waste of components with thousands of miles of life left in them, which leaves a sour taste in a cyclist's mouth.

The main thing I need to confirm *for myself* is the absolute silence or near-silence and drag-free operation of the Chainglider in normal use. I'm the guy who uses a freewheel grease injector on my other bikes so I can sneak up on bears and such, and prize a quiet bike above almost all other criteria. If it can't be rigged for near silent running, I'l have to pass despite the other benefits. I believe Andre, yet I'd love to have one to try or see firsthand to be *sure* before prising open my wallet for such a sizable purchase.

We still haven't anything like a good grip on how the Chainglider performs its magic. My first installation of the front-clip model Chainglider was dead silent almost from the beginning, my second installation of the current model took considerably more time to quieten by persistent small adjustments, and hasn't quite reached that exceptional quiet yet, though it is good enough not to be heard by my pedalpals.

However, that I'm satisfied the Chainglider is silent, in keeping with the nature of my bicycle, is no guarantee that it will be silent on your bike, Dan. Other Thorn riders have had varied experience along the path to arriving at a satisfactorily silent installation. Who knows what other components may have an influence? You've just had a vibratory experience with a wheel/hub dynamo/?other components? that's baffled you for quite a while. I keep returning to the belief that we'd all arrive at nirvana faster if we knew how the Chainglider works.

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The Idworx chaincase seems sturdy but, having seen and [not] heard the Chainglider magic, I'm no longer impressed by chaincases that need any kind of attachment to the frame. The Idworx chaincase to me appears to be merely a sturdier Utopia Country, or even a cross between a Dutch plastic case and a Chainglider. Fixing it to the frame is a retrograde step even if it is made of materials that won't rattle (that is the great advantage of the Country, that it is by design dead silent, which in turn brings with it consumable rubber parts...). Also, the Idworx price, Euro 150, well over two hundred dollars by the time you land it in the States, is outrageous, same as Utopia's expensive Country.

John Saxby

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Dan, in your search for a 'glider:  I seem to recall Frank Revelo saying he'd thrown his away...but where, I wonder?  Somewhere in the Northern California forest? If so, it might be melted by now.

Would used items be sold anywhere? One option might be to buy a new one from, say, starbike, and get a bulk order of Rohloff oil at the same time, to offset the shipping cost, as it were.

On the noise & drag factors:  With my chopped version, this is what I notice (or sometimes don't, if you get my drift):

   on reasonably smooth tarmac, my Marathon Supremes' hum covers any brushing noise from the 'glider, and whenever I'm in the lower range of the Rohloff, that does the same.

   I notice drag from the 'glider when the bike is on the stand and I turn the cranks by hand, or if, when I'm standing & about to clip in, I spin the cranks with my toe. You can spin the cranks easily with a derailleur, and also (but less so) with a 'gliderless Rohloff, but at these slow & non-riding speeds, the 'glider's magic isn't yet working. When I'm cycling, even at low speeds, I'm hard-pressed to notice either noise or drag from the 'glider. (Maybe it's like steering a canoe?--you need some measure of forward motion first?)

   on my chopped 'glider, I've noticed that the lower forward fixing tab (that is, the one about 4 o'clock as you look at the crankarm spider) between the inner & outer halves keeps coming out of its slot.  (Weird--none of the other slots-'n'-tabs have this problem.) When this happens, the inner & outer halves sort of slouch a little apart--not opening, just loosening--so that seen from above, the lower front section of the 'glider is all-of-a-sudden about 1/3 wider than its nearby sections. When that happens, I can hear the chain rattling on (that portion of?) the 'glider, even at higher speeds, say 11th gear. My fix has been Gorilla black duct tape, stretched along a 10 cm length of the 'glider on both sides of the tab-and-slot. Black plastic electricians' tape didn't work at all, and for, uh, aesthetic reasons (!?) I decided against hockey tape this time. The Gorilla seems to have done its job, as advertised.  One more bit of stuff to add to the tool kit; although as a rule, when I remove the rear wheel, I don't have to split the front half of the 'glider.  (The Gorilla tape has other uses, of course, and a few inches wrapped around a popsicle stick weighs virtually nothing.)
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Danneaux

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Andre, John...thank you gentlemen for relating your thoughts and specifics on these aspects of the Chainglider; it has all been most helpful and has moved me further forward in terms of the knowledge I see.

Many times in my cycling career, I've found my particular use, riding style, or mileage has made my experiences "different" from others. Those other cyclists weren't wrong -- far from it, for their experiences were as valid and honest for them as mine were for me. No, the problem is I've often found myself cycling as an outlier. For well over a decade, my annual mileage was at or close to 12,000mi/19,000km.  By trial and error, I've found what parts really do last in continued high service, and I hew to them because economics are part of the equation (I do things and live a life besides cycling; the monetary pie is only so large and only a fraction is dedicated to cycling. For example, quite a lot of cycle-travel can be funded for the cost of a complete replacement 9-sp drivetrain. When one can burn through three in a single summer, it adds up). Because I started "cycling with intent" as a means for rehabilitating some injuries related to a car wreck, I can't pedal with a lot of force but I spin like mad, so any drivetrain noise is repeated much more often than for others. I ride almost exclusively alone and in quiet places without earphones and enjoy nature, so low sound levels are important to me. Because I go alone into remote areas, I really do need to avoid things that can cause problems and delay or prevent my ready return on schedule with "enough" food and water remaining else things can quickly go Bad -- faster if I get hurt. At the same time, things that ensure a timely and safe return rise to the top of my kit wish list.

The mass of positive Chainglider reports on this list are moving this item further up my list, tempered by the knowledge my cycling and use are not always "typical".

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We still haven't anything like a good grip on how the Chainglider performs its magic.
<nods> Surely this is part of the attraction and intrigue of the thing, but the research methodologist in me likes repeatably quanitifiable results. This is balanced by your caution....
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that I'm satisfied the Chainglider is silent, in keeping with the nature of my bicycle, is no guarantee that it will be silent on your bike, Dan. Other Thorn riders have had varied experience along the path to arriving at a satisfactorily silent installation.
Exactly! This is what has stayed my hand, combined with the "problem" of having strayed from a more common Rohloff drivetrain configuration by using a 36x17 combo *and* an outboard-bearing BB. The unfortunate result is I'm locked out of some parts that would make trying a Chainglider both an easier and less expensive commitment and tend to make it an expensive and far riskier "all or nothing" proposition. For example, I have no idea why Surly has so severely their stainless chainring offerings in 104mm BCD.

Like you, Andre, I have for years (decades) ridden on the while line marking the edge of the traffic lane on country roads -- but because it is quieter and the bike runs even more silently. After years of rolling my own, I now wear Cat-Ears wind deflectors  http://www.cat-ears.com/ ) so I can hear closing traffic and birdsong and animals even better. Do you know happily dining porcupines sound like a small child who has swallowed a kazoo?
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You've just had a vibratory experience with a wheel/hub dynamo/?other components? that's baffled you for quite a while.
Yes, this one has me baffled at the moment. The vibrations seem to be the result of the fork/steerer being excited by the hub's magnetic eddy currents at certain speeds, transmitted through the axle-dropout connection. I've not yet figured how to address this problem. The SON28 is a huge step forward from my previous Sanyo Dynapower BB dynamo, especially in wet or muddy conditions -- no slippage or fouling -- but the Sanyo never introduced similar vibrations when running and of course had no drag when off.
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I keep returning to the belief that we'd all arrive at nirvana faster if we knew how the Chainglider works.
Surely!
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The Idworx chaincase seems sturdy but...
Exactly; it is even less proven in the experience of others -- at least across a range of non-Iworxian bikes, so even more of an Unknown Quantity for me, and also more expensive and "not intended" for my specific application. It would make an expensive ornament on the Mantle of Failed Expectations if it didn't work.

From John...
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I seem to recall Frank Revelo saying he'd thrown his away...but where, I wonder?  Somewhere in the Northern California forest? If so, it might be melted by now.
Despite the spate of recent wildfires, I've not given up hope! I've found more perfectly preserved "old things" in the backcountry than I can count, many seemingly out of place or context. Why would someone leave an electric bread toaster in the middle of Nevada's Black Rock Desert? Seemingly in perfect condition, there were no tire tracks around it. Too big for crows to carry, unlikely prey of raptors, it just...was.

There's a wealth of things to be found far more relevant to cyclists, and I've surely tried. For an example of the bounty and the scenery showing the places I go, see: http://rideoregonride.com/7-bikes-7-wonders/ When the initial video finished playing, click on the 7 more showing what was on offer (all have now been found).
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Would used items be sold anywhere?
I've surely considered this and pursued it to a degree without success. It appears my size 590M Nomad would require a longer front section than is standard, thanks to its extended chainstays when the EBB is at greatest forward rotation.
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on reasonably smooth tarmac, my Marathon Supremes' hum covers any brushing noise from the 'glider, and whenever I'm in the lower range of the Rohloff, that does the same.
Ah! The "brushing noise" is what I'd like to avoid. Hearing it 120 times a minute could quickly get old. My Rohloff is virtually silent (and likely destined to last forever) 'cos I nearly always ride/cruise in my direct-drive Gear 11 with my current gearing setup.
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When I'm cycling, even at low speeds, I'm hard-pressed to notice either noise or drag from the 'glider.
Useful information indeed. My contact at Hebie tells me they recommend actively greasing the chain to reduce both noise and drag over oil alone. I would imagine the grease is slathered over a well-oiled chain, most likely for the purpose of increasing "glide" -- though I've never heard of anyone doing this in practice, even among my all-weather cycling pals in The Netherlands and Germany.
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{...when the case halves go a bit awry in closure] I can hear the chain rattling on (that portion of?) the 'glider, even at higher speeds, say 11th gear.
Ah, yes. The Chainglider does seem to have been made in at least two iterations, differing in part by the number and placement of the joining tabs. I have read occasional reports that one version worked better than another on a given rider's bike, resulting in a measurable degree of disappointment or elation, depending on the outcome.

Thanks again, fellow; all most helpful.

All the best,

Dan. (...who might be better off saving for a 3-D printer)

Andre Jute

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One more thing, Dan. It is true that I trebled my chain mileage with the Country and then the Chainglider, but part of that was simply switching to steel gears and KMC chains from particularly soft Shimano Nexus chains and gears. Others have also reported gains in chain life on switching from bare chains to Chainguards.

However... What wears a chain, Sheldon and Jobst used to say, was grit and oil under the rollers. Since you floss your chain daily, you should consider how close to the natural maximum chain life you are, that is, how much extra mileage you can realistically expect from enclosing your chain. I would expect it to be less as a percentage, possibly less as a mileage, than almost everyone else on the board, precisely because you're obsessive about these things.

That makes recovery of any investment in a chain cover longer, even with a higher annual mileage, and possibly makes the whole idea uneconomical, a luxury. I'd do it all the same, for the convenience, because I don't believe in that roadie nonsense that a cyclist must suffer, but you clearly order your priorities differently. I was impressed when I first arrived on this board by the huge range of mileages cyclists get on chains, so the numbers have to be run for each individual cyclist.

BTW, I don't understand why you use 9-speed chains. (Typo?) Rohloff clearly would prefer you to use an 8-sp chain, and it is cheaper and stronger and might well last longer. Whichever you use, the chain is the cheapest consumable on your bike.

John Saxby

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Then again, from my POV, it becomes a question of, how do I want to spend my time?  We venture now into the domain of what are called First-World Problems (Issues for the Global North, in a different political economy, but never mind, and back to the thread...)  I decided long time back, that as as motorcyclist I really didn't much like being nibbled to death by ducks chains, and swore "enough, already". So I bought a BMW twin, c/w driveshaft (and one that's more reliable, I'm told, than the high-end items now on the roads.)  On a parallel track, I found myself still getting nibbled to death by ducks derailleurs and sought refuge once more in German technology & engineering, this time the Rohloff. Then--lo!--I found I didn't have to fuss much with chains, either, 'cos I could hand that business off to a 'glider.

What I most like to do at the end of the day is pitch camp, brew a cuppa, add a really over-the-top slug of condensed milk, and think thoughts about whatever I like.  I gather that both the Rohloff and the 'glider were intended for cold-dark-wet-grimy-slushy streets in the Northern European winter, but if as a ripple effect they free me from chain maintenance  beside a lake on an Ontario summer evening, well, I turn to the East, nod (as a lapsed catholic, we no longer kneel, y'know), and raise my cup of tea.

Now, 'tis true, I don't trek about the high deserts of Eastern Oregon and Western Nevada, and indeed my canter through those parts a couple of years ago left me wondering--"Jeezus, Mary an' Joseph, what if I had an electrical fault and fire here, of all places, on my airhead? All they'd find would be a mess of melted plastic, twisted metal, and some calcium, and even that, only after years had passed."  Still & all, I'd risk a 'glider & forego the daily fiddling with the chain--at the very least as a pilot--and, I dunno, instead brew a cuppa and ponder the mysteries of the high deserts.  I wouldn't worry about my "brushing" sound, Dan--didn't mean to alarm you--'cos I notice it only when the bike's on the stand, or motionless, when I spin my cranks. That is, for all practical purposes, never.

So, go for it, sez I.  Mind you, a quality 3D printer could probably pay for itself over a winter -- I'd buy a purpose-built 36T 'glider, so long as it had a bit more clearance for the back end of the 'ring than Hebie's off-the-shelf model.   ;)

Danneaux

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BTW, I don't understand why you use 9-speed chains. (Typo?) Rohloff clearly would prefer you to use an 8-sp chain, and it is cheaper and stronger and might well last longer.
Hi Andre!

No, not a typo, just sloppy writing on my part. What I intended to say (and my mind went faster than my fingers, a particular problem when I'm really cooking along on the smartphone with its small screen and autocorrect, which often distracts me and requires editing after the fact) was that 9-speed drivetrains last a short time in my service, and I can't afford them 'cos replacement intervals are so pitifully short. I really can wear through up to three sets of chain, cassette ('cos the things are riveted together now and most-used cogs aren't available and can't be replaced individually), and at least two chainrings in the course of a long summer's touring and day riding.

I do indeed use 8-sp chains on my Nomad, and source 6-/7-/8-speed chains for the derailleur bikes -- precisely because of their longer service life.

One of the reasons I'm such a devotee of 5-/6-speed freewheels and 7-speed cassettes -- all with half-step gearing -- is that approach means I use the middle and large chainrings almost equally, spreading the wear between two chainrings instead of mostly one. Both middle and high (thick, unramped) chainrings are large in diameter (more teeth so more surface area; the granny low gear is usually stainless and used relatively little and then only with the bottom 3 or 4 cogs), and I can get proportionally more usable gear combinations with fewer, thicker cogs (13 of 15 gears, 15 of 18 gears, and 18 of 21 available gear combos with no duplicates).  Best of all, my most used gear combinations are in a straight line or just one cog or chainring to either side, so I enjoy many of the lifespan benefits of a single-speed or IGH.  If I converted to Shimano Altus derailleurs with larger 13t and 15t jockey and tension pulleys, I'd probably see a discernible increase in chain life.

Of course, the same holds true with 8-sp chains on the Nomad with its Rohloff hub.

A child of Depression-era parents, I learned early on the best form of recycling is preventive maintenance, followed by repair and reuse instead of the R&R (remove and replace) we see so often today.

I don't have to clean my chains too often if I'm touring on pavement or gravel, thanks to my use of very long front mudflaps on my bikes and I do well on gravel , but the playa dust blowing across dry lakes really settles in if I don't keep up the flossing routine in camp. Also, heavy or continuous rains means I  relube the chain pretty religiously to get maximum life, so that routine gets a bit old as well. 

Yes, a Chainglider would sure be nice and I'm pining for one. I'm still hoping Hebie produces a version for my smaller chainring so I can save some money in the conversion. As John says, I'd love the additional freedom from maintenance it offers. Meanwhile, I'll soldier on with what I've got for awhile longer as I dream Hebie dreams at night in my little tent while touring.

All the best,

Dan.

il padrone

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You will recall that I had some friction concerns on fitting my Chainglider a little while back. Well, all running very nicely now with something over 700kms done. Checked the chain inside it a few days ago - all looking very clean and shiny. I wiped the chain and gave it a touch of the Purple Extreme.

The chain runs quite freely (not quite as free as without the 'glider) and there is no noise from it at all. The only time I have noticed noise was the last week, as the chain had stretched a little and its rubbing on the 'glider told me it might be time to tighten tings a little. Probably could have held off a bit longer though really.

I'm a happy Rohloff/Chainglider user.

il padrone

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The SON28 is a huge step forward from my previous Sanyo Dynapower BB dynamo, especially in wet or muddy conditions -- no slippage or fouling -- but the Sanyo never introduced similar vibrations when running and of course had no drag when off.
You must have the lucky Sanyo Dynapower then. The one on my road bike has the rattles of a horde of sick banshees when it is switched on, and still rattles away even when off. :(

I recall the ones I used on my old touring bike were always getting mucky with dirt and began to rattle a lot.

Danneaux

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Hi Pete!

Thanks for the additional data point on Chainglider success. Yes, I followed your initial difficulties and was heartened to see them all resolved with a simple adjustment. Terrific!
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You must have the lucky Sanyo Dynapower then.
I seem to, fortunately. I have a whole box of them, including several that are NOS/NIP.
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...the ones I used on my old touring bike were always getting mucky with dirt and began to rattle a lot.
Yep and exactly so. The dirt flung by the tire builds up in a crust that makes them hop and rattle. I carried a scraper with me to "prep" them before use. A pain at times, and they also slip when wet (depending on the tire and amount of water); bonus points!  :P

However, they did provide light for a budget price and worked reliably most of the time I needed them in my regular commuting years (and before hub dynamos were even as inexpensive and/or reliable as they are at present. I remember an old Sturmey-Archer that left much to be desired).

All the best,

Dan.

Andre Jute

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There are at least two series of Hebie Chaingliders, and by this I mean functionally different designs, not just rear ends adapted for different hub gearboxes, front ends sized for various tooth counts on chainrings. and different chain cover arm lengths to account for different chainstay lengths.

The two designs I have offer a different component count, three for the newer one, four for the older one. The older one has a loose clip which holds its furthermost front end together around the forward edge of the chainring. The later model performs the same function with slots and ridges cast into the cover itself, without the separate enveloping clip.

Merely on my description, most people will believe the later design is progress, the absence of a small part which therefore cannot be lost. They'd be wrong. The older design is superior.

In practice, the second design is less functional. I never had any problem with the older design but the newest design simply doesn't hold together at that point. The ridge keeps coming out of its slot. It is only a moment's work at the beginning of a ride to clip it together again, and there isn't a gap where any dirt can get in because the two halves are still held together by the other ridges and slots, but all the same one pays for German engineering in the expectation that it will fit together and stay together.

I don't think I'll be selling my currently "resting" first series Hebie Chainglider on...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:36:41 am by Andre Jute »

John Saxby

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...the newest design simply doesn't hold together at that point. The ridge keeps coming out of its slot.

That's been my experience, Andre -- though only since I chopped my 'glider to fit the 36T ring (and get rid of a bit of friction at the rear of the 38T ring at the same time.) Strange bizness.

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It is only a moment's work at the beginning of a ride to clip it together again

Maybe...I found that the tab/slot separation was a persistent problem.  First time I noticed it, I stopped the bike, pushed the two sides of the 'glider together, inserted tab into slot, and set off, pleased to see that it was just a momentary thing. 'Cept it wasn't: tab deserted slot after a few kms of road buzz & shocks, so I left it as is 'til I got home, and tried 2 or 3 varieties of tape. As described, black Gorilla duct tape does the business -- not quite as elegant as a clip, I guess, but it's held for a few hundred kms now, and I expect it will be in place more or less indefinitely, as Gorilla products are tough. (How do I know? Not from 'glider applications alone. I have a pair of mid-calf insulated leather work boots which I used when I worked at a building supplies store in my last years in high school. Those boots have been resoled and re-heeled, and I can't bear to part with them, even though I don't use them a whole lot any more. I bought them in 1964 from the store where I worked, $14.95 as I recall, 'cos they were the top of the line.  Brand: Gorilla -- doubt it's the same Gorilla, though.  Slogan beside the logo: "Brutally tough."  JS' quick review: Comfortable in all 4 seasons, repairable & indestructible.)

Andre Jute

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Thanks for the Gorilla tape tip, John. For the moment I'll just leave it, as there is no gap for dirt to get in, and see what develops.

JimK

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The older one has a loose clip which holds its furthermost front end together around the forward edge of the chainring. The later model performs the same function with slots and ridges cast into the cover itself, without the separate enveloping clip.
 

Mine must be the newer design. I haven't noticed a problem... not that I have been paying any particular attention!