Author Topic: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy  (Read 8951 times)

Arnaud

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Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« on: February 25, 2006, 09:52:13 am »
Hello again from Down Under...
Before ordering a Rohloff equipped bike I searched the internet for user comments and most of them agreed on the three weaknesses: expensive, noisy and heavy. Well, that's no different from the olive press we use to produce top quality olive oil. The centrifuges we use are horribly expensive, noisy and heavy...so I new the Speedhub was the kind of gear I wanted on my new bike.
My theory is that if the Marketing people (as opposed to the Engineering department) had been in control then yes, the hub would have been cheaper, quieter and lighter...
Why ? Because it would have being put together by slave labour in some third world country, instead of by highly qualified well paid tradespeople who most probably love what they are doing.
Because it would have being made of some sort of moulded plastic (light,quiet and cheap)instead of machined out of top grade steel.
I see the Speedhub more as a professional tool rather than a consumer item where the marketing aspect is predominant.
OK, I agree it is noisy...going uphill in gear 7 sounds like beating egg whites for a meringue. When in good company it is socially unacceptable to swear, fart or use gear 7.
It is also expensive...in my particular case two months income to purchase the bike. In life it is all about priorities and I always make an effort to support small businesses who specialise in quality and service (I am part of one of them)like SJS Cycles and Rohloff.
Multinationals are bad news.
Is the Rohloff hub heavy ? I don't know. Since January 1 I've lost 2 kg just by enjoying myself on a pushbike so who cares about the weight of the hub !
I hope this isn't too political for this forum.
I just wanted to say how impressed I was by this whole Rohloff business.

Arnaud

 

paulhipwood

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2006, 04:11:40 pm »
Hi All

One of the things I like about the Rohloff is knowing how well designed and manufactured this box is. As an engineer and designer I would be so proud to have developed something like this.

Click on this link and watch in awe

http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/technik/speedhub/funktionsprinzip/kleinauf_kleinform
 

paulhipwood

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2006, 04:13:02 pm »
Hi All

One of the things I like about the Rohloff is knowing how well designed and manufactured this box is. As an engineer and designer I would be so proud to have developed something like this.

Click on this link and watch in awe

http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/technik/speedhub/funktionsprinzip/kleinauf_kleinform.swf
 

graham

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2006, 07:59:06 pm »
As another Engineer, I see our Ravens as 'Engineers bikes'. I always thought derailleurs were a bit - well, Heath Robinson, really.

I agree with all you wrote, Arnaud. I'm glad there are still a few sane (or at least mad in the same way as me) people out there.

Might be interesting to do a straw poll. How many like minded Engineers are there out there riding Ravens?

On the subject of cost, I read in a British paper recently that it costs on average £500 a month to run a car in the UK. So for three months cost of running a car, you can have a bike that will probably last as long as you want it to (or until it gets broken by being  hit by a car). For most people, it's the vast quantity of cheap disposable rubbish out there that makes a thing of quality look expensive. I expect for a lot of people it's more about priorities than affordability.
 

footloose

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2006, 10:10:17 pm »
I think Rohloff bikes are very expensive, noisy, and inefficient. Deraillers are easy to maintain, cheap, easy to replace or repair. I would not like to be stuck in Mongolia with a Rohloff in one useable gear waiting for some highly specialised parts to arrive from Western Europe.
If I wanted noisy gears I would buy a motorbike.
Let's put it into perspective, £600+ for a bicycle hub is 'not a bargain'.
Some of these Rohloff bikes are extremely expensive (e.g. the mercury).
 

footloose

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2006, 10:13:23 pm »
P.S. I am not an engineer.
 

stutho

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 02:32:53 pm »
I am another engineer ridding a Rohloff Speedhub.

Footloose:
I don’t believe it is any more inefficient than a derailleur (in the real world).  I am certainly quicker on my Rohloff equipped bike than on my XT equipped bike – both bikes cost about the same  £1000 /  £1200.  (I realise I am comparing the bikes not the gearing.)

In the last 2 years I have ridden between 5000 and 7000 miles on a derailleur in the process I have used up 3 1/2 chains, one rear derailleur, one rear cluster and an inner chain-ring.  If you factor those parts in then I believe the Speedhub come out on top.

My main motivation for the Speedhub is one of laziness!  I don’t like to spend time cleaning and maintain my bike when I could be playing with my kids (or out riding!) cleaning the derailleur, while not hard, takes time.  Plus you have to clean the cluster and the 3 chain-rings.  Cleaning with the Rohloff is Sooo much easier.

Next time you are in Mongolia consider what will happen if you loss the jockey wheel screw.  Do you really think that you are going to be able to get hold of one? Instead do you think that it will be easy to get a new rear derailleur that is compatible with you shifters and cluster in a part of the world where a derailleur is as uncommon as the Speedhub is here?  (You did remember to put ‘thread lock’ on the jockey wheel screw last time you inspected the derailleur right?)

What I am tiring to point out is YES a derailleur is FAR more fixable or replaceable when in western country.  This is not the case in Mongolia.  

In Mongolia I would go for the far more reliable Speedhub.

footloose

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 09:01:53 pm »
i think the cost argument is very dubious, fine if you have expensive campag/ shimano kit, but otherwise deraillers aren't expensive.
Regarding the jockey screw, I am sure that a similar screw would be easy to find in Mongolia, perhaps not an authentic Shimano part (obviously). People in these places make do with very little and can be highly adaptive in finding solutions, although I think they may be lost on a Rohloff.
Re: maintenance, cleaning deraillers is no hassle.
There are losts of Rohloff accessories eg. very expensive oil, and this adds to a very expensive item.
 

stutho

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 11:05:37 am »
Your point on expensive oil is well taken, as an engineer I have to wonder why the Speedhub wasn’t designed for normal gearbox oil. (Probably too thick - both me and the oil!) The special oil costs £8 to £12 a year (A rip-off agreed!) The only other maintenance is to change the hub cable every 3rd year (£5) that is it!

From the Rohloff site:
"After approx. 90.000km, a Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 was sent back to us (Rohloff) in order to be inspected. The customer wanted to know exactly what sort of a condition the mechanism was in after such use. After a thorough examination of all the internal bearings and gears, the service mechanic could not find any signs of extreme wear or function failure."

That’s 51 miles a day for 3 years!  How many derailleurs would this person of got though in the same time? Plus the extra chain wear + the rear clusters etc.  I would surmise that the Rohloff works out cheaper for in the long run.

The jockey bolt it is only one of a dozen plus specialist parts that would be very hard to replace OR mimic (see http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/media/cycling/techdocs/en/bikecomponents/RD/EV-RD-M760-2269_v1_m56577569830494493.pdf). All these parts are siting exposed to the elements.

The derailleur has another major weakness it relies on a straight derailleur hanger. Although this is repairable - even in Mongolia - why relay on technology that is so fragile and so exposed to anything that wants to destroy it.  I have never toured in a sparsely populated area like Mongolia but if I did I wouldn't be expecting to be able to get hold of a brake cable never mind a derailed.

In engineering I am a great believer in maxim KIS (Keep It Simple) Now the Speedhub is complex but it simplifies the bike, makes the bike easier to ride and requires almost no maintain.  All the complex parts are protected from the environment.  A derailleur is not as complex BUT it requires looking after and doesn’t have the longevity of the Speedhub.

The Rohloff Speedhub is an Aston Martin in the making! I explain.  75% of all Aston ever made are still on the road today.   I bet the same will be true of all the Speedhub ever made in 20 years time.  Just like Astons, once you ride a Speedhub you don’t want to ride anything else.  Unfortunately just like an Aston it isn't cheap.

Anyway as my granddad used to say ‘You pays you money and you takes your choice.’  

Wish you happy pedalling

Stutho
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 04:36:33 pm by stutho »

PH

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 06:25:31 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by stutho

Your point on expensive oil is well taken, as an engineer I have to wonder why the Speedhub wasn’t designed for normal gearbox oil. (Probably too thick - both me and the oil!) The special oil costs £8 to £12 a year (A rip-off agreed!)


A litre of the flushing oil and a litre of the gear oil will cost you £60, enough to last 200,000 kilometres!  That’s £1.50 per oil change.
Cheap as chips[;)]

PH

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 06:35:12 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by Arnaud

Hello again from Down Under...
Before ordering a Rohloff equipped bike I searched the internet for user comments and most of them agreed on the three weaknesses: expensive, noisy and heavy.



Sorry I simply can't agree with those comments[;)]

Expensive - My Raven cost £350 more than a comparable derailleur geared bike.  It saves me £100 -£120 a year, so over 10 years the overall saving should be around £750[:D]

Noisy - After 8,000 miles the hub is quieter in 12 of the 14 gears than my derailleur bike.

Heavy - Compared to a road bike, maybe.  Compared to another tourer, there's not much in it.

I think people’s reaction to the noise of a new hub is an age thing.  The younger generation seem to expect everything to work perfect straight out of the box.  To those over about 40 the idea of mechanical objects requiring a running in period seems perfectly natural

footloose

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2006, 09:41:05 pm »
I think everyone has their own way of working out costs. Personally, I don't see this as a selling point. Not many people do 200,000 kms on a push bike.
I just wonder how we all managed before Rohloffs appeared...
 

stutho

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2006, 11:14:09 pm »
PH
Most of us don't buy Speedhub oil by the litre. I only have one Rohloff equipped bike!
NB £13.99 for 0.94 litres of ‘normal’ lightweight gearbox oil, which you can buy around the world - not that I would use it.

What would be great would be if the oil + flush was sold in 200ml for say £15 the set.  That would represent a 10-year supply (going by the Thorn instructions).  Unfortunately the only choices are £60 for 1 litre or £12 for 25ml.  That is 8 times more expensive that a litre and that is the rip-off.

stutho

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 11:20:31 pm »
Footloose
“I just wonder how we all managed before Rohloffs appeared...”

Before derailleur people managed with fixed gearing – then someone had a better idea.

PH

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Re: Why it is Expensive, Noisy and Heavy
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2006, 05:33:34 pm »
quote:
Originally posted by footloose


 Not many people do 200,000 kms on a push bike.




Well they should[}:)]