Author Topic: Bottom bracket  (Read 7201 times)

Peddrov

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Bottom bracket
« on: March 21, 2013, 06:38:39 am »
Hullo! I'm in the process of finalizing my specs for a thorn raven. One thing i know almost nothing about is the bottom bracket. From what I gather, I have choice between Thorn internal bearings, Thorn external bearings, and Hollowtech 2. Google tells me that the latter is lightweight and easier to service but with a potentially shorter lifespan. That said, I haven't found a satisfying comparison and I imagine most people in forums are using their bikes for purposes other than loaded touring anyway.

So I was hoping someone here has some experience with this. Apart from price, what are the pros/cons, for a touring bike? how much weight saving are we talking with the hollowtech? What do you use, why, and how happy are you with it?

Thanks!
Philipp

Danneaux

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Re: Bottom bracket
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2013, 07:12:28 am »
Hi Philipp!

Though I preferred external BB cranks on my Thorns, internal-bearing, square-taper BBs have historically been longer lived. The gap is narrowing, however; a lot of internal-bearing BBs are not as well made as they used to be so this one formerly very reliable part is now a bit less so compared to days gone by.

I chose the HollowTech II for both Sherpa and the Nomad. Primary in my choice was the easy on-road serviceability (allen key, as with a threadless headset), lightweight, and stiffness.

That said, external bearings are a known trouble point and have a much shorter service life than a high quality internal bottom bracket. Though the races are larger in diameter, the bearings are smaller and fewer in number, and there can be sealing and lubrication issues. A friend of mine had a great deal of trouble with his, caused in part by riding it well after it wore out (the bearings seized and scored the spindle to the point where it had to be hammered out, destroying the crank). He replaced it with a similar 4-arm square-taper (internal-bearing) crank and BB and is happy once again.

When I bought the Nomad, I ordered a Phil Wood replacement external bottom bracket at a very good price (USD$99 postpaid) and plan to use the original Shimano unit until it shows initial signs of wear/play, then swap in the Phil unit, which has a much better reputation (I have had exceptional service from their internal BBs, hubs and pedals on my other bikes). Removal and replacement of external bearings is exceptionally quick and easy, and I like the cranks otherwise. On a long, round-the-world trip, it wouldn't be a huge thing to carry a spare bearing set. A number of aftermarket sources also offer replacement cartridge bearings that can be pressed into the original Shimano external cups.

I think poor initial adjustment of the left-arm crank cap is one prime cause of short bearing life in external-bearing BBs. A small plastic (Shimano) or steel (Park) tool is used, and the bearing preload is exceptionally small -- as little as 4 inch-pounds. Nearly everyone gets it wrong by making it too tight. This shortens bearing life greatly. All that is needed is to remove excess play, and that's it; anything else side-loads the bearings and effectively squashes them into their races.

With the four-arm external-bearing crank and BB comes different chainring compatibility and selection. For single-ring Thorns, that means 104mmBCD chainrings. If you decide to go with a Surly stainless-steel chainring, at present they are available as large as 36T but no larger. Mine works fine with a 17T Rohloff rear cog to provide the gearing I need. This combination has recently been approved by Rohloff for warranty coverage; previously, it fell into the "use-at-own-risk" Forbidden Zone. Thorn offer a wide selection of four-arm, 104BCD aluminum 'rings that are of exceptional quality, thicker than usual, very stiff, very hard, and beautifully finished -- few if any size limitations if you go with a Thorn-branded chainring. Regardless of BCD, they are exceptionally long-lived for alu 'rings.

Five-arm cranks are typically 110mm BCD, and there is a huge selection of 'rings available. Surly's stainless 'rings are available in the popular 38T and 40T sizes for pairing with a Rohloff hub. OF course, Thorn also have a wide selection of their own alu 'rings in this size as well, so you can get pretty much anything you might wish.

I hope this helps, Philipp. I've tried to present the pros and cons fairly. In the end, I went with my preferred crank and also purchased spare bearings to address the one known shortcoming of the HollowTech II's external design. That said, I don't expect to need them for a good while; it was a matter of striking when an exceptional deal on the Phil bearings came my way. I think the original Shimano bearings will last a reasonable amount of time in my use. For reference, all my other bikes have sealed, cartridge-bearing, internal, square-taper cranks and 110/74BCD cranks.

[EDIT: Seeing Andy's well-written post reminded me of another reason why I decided to go with the external-bearing crank. The Thorns were my first new bikes in well over 20 years, and I plan to keep the Nomad for at least the next 20 years. Where each was a new bike, the external-bearing design seemed the way forward -- the square-taper internal-bearing seems generally less popular on current offerings, so I viewed the new bike as an opportunity to modernize. I moved from 5-, 6-, or 7-speed freewheels and cassettes on my other much older bikes to 9-sp on Sherpa and Rohloff on the Nomad. I went from quill stems and lugged frames in standard diameters to threadless stems and TIG-welded oversize frames on the Thorns. Did I choose right with the cranks? Will I prove to be prescient or a hopeless early adopter? Only time will tell...  ;D ]

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 08:08:45 am by Danneaux »

Andybg

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Re: Bottom bracket
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2013, 07:14:19 am »
I use a square internal bottom bracket. This seems to be generaly preffered by expedition tourers as:

It is easy to get replaced anywhere in the world
Generally lasts longer than an external bearing type.

I dont think the weight difference would be enough to favour either.

The external bearing type are meant to be lighter and stiffer but with the above weaknesses.

Like many thngs in life there is not the perfect answer but only the one that best fits your needs.

My main bike shop (80km) keeps wanting to fit a modern external BB but then they would be the closest shop where I would be able to get a replacement as opposed to my local bike shop which is 20km away.

Andy


il padrone

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Re: Bottom bracket
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2013, 07:40:12 am »
I bought a Shimano UN-72 square-taper BB after the first cheapy started failing in  1995. It remaned in use on that bike right up until I built the Thorn Nomad in 2011. The bike is still in use by my son now - same BB. I'd estimate it has done something over 90,000kms.

UN-73 BBs now replace it. Still available I believe.





If you want a really durable BB you could lay down the coin for an SKF sealed stainless steel unit from Germany  :o 10 year warranty, bequeath it to your kids.


Peddrov

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Re: Bottom bracket
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2013, 10:21:34 am »
Ok, thanks for the very detailed answers everyone! I think I will go with the start price square taper option with Thorn cranksets and see how I get on with this before I throw a lot of money at something more fancy.

StuntPilot

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Re: Bottom bracket
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2013, 11:00:17 am »
il padrone - this looks like the ultimate bottom bracket. I see they no longer make them but are still supplied by Compass Bicycles in Seattle, WA, USA.

http://www.compasscycle.com/bb_SKFBAS_jis.html

I will see how long my standard Shimano BB-UN54 lasts but it is fine at the moment. May consider this excellent SKF in future though.