Author Topic: Saddles Thread?  (Read 91383 times)

Danneaux

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2013, 04:25:34 pm »
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Ah but, I've never ever heard any man referring to their bikes as a "he".
Till now!  ;D

All my bikes are "hims" and the same for the utility bikes and Avaghon adventure tourer of my Dutch pal and the Mizutani and self-built custom of a prior touring partner. My father's bikes are male, though his favorite horse -- Nellie -- was female.

Dunno why, but none of mine seemed to have a feminine vibe for me. When anthropomorphizing them, it is always "he". Maybe it gets back to childhood pets who also filled the adventure-companion role. The one female cat was very much a homebody, while the male beagle dog and two cats were ready for anything -- especially the last doglike cat, who walked on a leash, visited places with me, and loved car riding.

Bike as male persona...oh-kay. Bike as Adventure-Cat...eh, I need another animal companion.

My sister has far more sense than I. Her touring mixte is her "blue pony" -- but has a "men's" saddle, which she prefers.

All the best,

Dan. (...who *just* managed to work in something related to saddles)

JWestland

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2013, 05:11:25 pm »
Blue Pony? That makes me thing of Rainbow Ponies  ;D

Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2013, 06:02:52 pm »
Anthropomorphizing ahoy!

I used to have a (German) teacher of psychology who always said the word full out, "anthromorphologizing", and every time it would stop everybody in the room for a second while they changed step.

What does that make the glitter red Mixte fixie...metrosexual male? :P

Ah, Jawine, you are a wicked woman. You made me choke on my chicken sandwich. "Metrosexual male", indeed!

Actually, the mixte is now such a trendy profile that makers of bikes which aren't mixte try to jump on the bandwagon. See WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE  https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0%5B1-25-false%5D in which in passing I expose a bike topology naming practice related to "mixte" that in Europe would lead to a reprimand by the Advertising Standards Authority and possibly an investigation by Trading Practices officials.

Andre Jute
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:06:40 pm by Hobbes »

JWestland

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2013, 10:25:49 am »
Holy cow that thread turns nasty pretty quickly though you hold your stride. And then they say men aren't bitchy...  ;D

Indeed that Waterford is Not A Mixte. Which are not as low as Dutch frames, but still ok if your skirt isn't too tight. I ride it fixed and prefer not to risk anything that can get stuck on the saddle nose.

Mixte are quite stiff, originally used for racing for a bit. I guess frame stiffness is another one of those selling points.
I can't image with short stays etc. a lot of the frame stiffness talk is not just merely talk.

*unless may you are 100KG and a brute*
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2013, 06:08:40 pm »
Holy cow that thread turns nasty pretty quickly though you hold your stride. And then they say men aren't bitchy...  ;D

Most threads turn nasty on most fora, which is why it is such a pleasure to correspond with interesting and well-mannered people on this one. But that thread was particularly designed by me to put down a bunch of street bullies for good. I learned my polemics in places where second prize is a bullet in the back of the neck. These little wannabe flame warriors don't have the experience and sophistication to understand that I mean that literally, not hyperbolically at all.

Indeed that Waterford is Not A Mixte. Which are not as low as Dutch frames, but still ok if your skirt isn't too tight. I ride it fixed and prefer not to risk anything that can get stuck on the saddle nose.

Bit of a cheek really, to call it a mixte. But it isn't Waterford who calls it a mixte. They've very carefully written their promotional literature so that they can say in court that all that they claimed was that it looks remotely like a mixte, not that it is a mixte. With such crude nudge-nudge prompting, it is no surprise that their dealers (there are several Waterford dealers in that thread) tell the lie and then swear blind they do so on Waterford's authority. In Europe the various advertising agent's professional bodies would step on the perpetrators of such a lie hard, and various government agencies have involved themselves, with serious penalties, for less blatant transgressions of the truth.

Mixte are quite stiff, originally used for racing for a bit. I guess frame stiffness is another one of those selling points.
I can't image with short stays etc. a lot of the frame stiffness talk is not just merely talk.

*unless may you are 100KG and a brute*

I've used your remark above as the seedcorn of another thread: Eyeballing the stiffness of the non-diamond Thorn frames
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

Andre Jute

JWestland

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #140 on: July 09, 2013, 11:13:03 pm »
Risk putting thread back on rails here...

Bought a Selle Royal Regal for the vintage beastie (of which I am proud hence piccie here http://static.lfgss.com/attachments/70169d1373224105-ciocc_sancristobal_2013_07_07.jpg) and it's a tad...firm atm.

Even for the sitbones. So it may be one of these saddles that needs some sitting on before it feels really good. Fun times with big potholes atm!

So Specialized Avatar still my nr 1 favorite saddle. Tubulars and a frame built when races weren't done on smooth tarmac do a great job of dampening the worst of the roads btw, really takes out vibration.


Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Danneaux

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #141 on: July 10, 2013, 12:02:22 am »
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Risk putting thread back on rails here...
;D
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the vintage beastie (of which I am proud
And rightfully so, I might add! You did a wonderful build, Jawine; I don't remember seeing them look any nicer in the showroom, new, back in the day!
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...it [new Selle Royal Regal saddle] may be one of these saddles that needs some sitting on before it feels really good.
I suspect you're right, Jawine. I had one Avocet Touring II that did that, and it turned out to be one of my favorite saddles...later.  ;) Just took a bit of time for me to shape to it and vice versa. If it is any help, it looks wonderful on the bike.
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Tubulars and a frame built when races weren't done on smooth tarmac do a great job of dampening the worst of the roads btw, really takes out vibration.
It really is wonderful how much compliance is in that combination, isn't it? Nothing rides quite like it. You may still have to post (stand) on occasion when encountering a really sharp jolt or big bump, but that's a small price to pay.

Very, very nicely done, Jawine; all compliments your way on a very professional job of it. Please let us know how you get on with the saddle over time.

Best,

Dan.

JWestland

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2013, 10:22:47 am »
So the Avatar 143 is possibly too narrow, or the profile isn't right. I like the cut-out but the Regal offers better hip support for me.

So Regal on Thorn now, looks nice too, it's er...hard, but the hip support is very good and it also supports parts of hip between the leg. Whatever that's called me and anatomy :)

Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2013, 03:36:59 pm »
As a recent (a few years) convert to Brook B73, I don't want to sound like a hypocrite suggesting something I no longer ride myself, but I've always wondered why more women, and men too, especially commuters and recreation riders, don't use the available bicycle seats. I had excellent experience of the Cheeko90 when my back was wrecked by an overly stiff Peugeot frame on harsh Marathon Plus tires. It's comfortable, secure, very convenient, and also works well with the several kinds of sprung seatposts I owned at the time. You can see the Cheeko90 on my electronic/automatic Trek tourer at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html It's an American invention, made in the Far East; mine was imported from The Netherlands and cost under forty euro (I seem to remember...)

JWestland

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2013, 04:15:17 pm »
Hey that Cheeko is very reminiscent of the flat leather saddles we used to have on Dutch Roadsters! Associated with skirts (no snag) and older people (cos out of fashion)

Never had one, guess they only work in an upright position but otherwise must be comfy :)

So far, the Charge Spoon on my Charge Hob that came as standard is OK, but the cutout is neither deep enough to be really useful, and the saddle isn't flat enough to support the inside hip bones. OK but wouldn't use it for very long rides even though reviews are good. (It's a city bike though...)

I've had a Brooks years ago but it was well erm worn in. Thorns don't come with standard saddles. The saddle an ex-colleague of mine had on his White bike was too thin for him and the Specialized of his first came got put back on pretty quickly.

I seem to prefer harder/wider saddles so far. Selle Italia Ladies Gel Flow Saddle gets rave reviews, not tried one yet.
Pedal to the metal! Wind, rain, hills, braking power permitting ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2013, 07:29:10 pm »
Never had one[Cheeko90], guess they only work in an upright position but otherwise must be comfy :)

Very comfy, definitely for bikes with the handlebars higher than the saddle. You can get a semisporting position by setting the saddle up higher than normal, say level with the tops of the bars, and then leaning forward, pressing back against the seat. You can develop enormous power at the pedals that way but it is a learned position (so is drops) and pretty tiring. I used it to storm up a hill where previously I had to push.

il padrone

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2013, 03:52:25 am »
. You can see the Cheeko90 on my electronic/automatic Trek tourer at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html It's an American invention, made in the Far East; mine was imported from The Netherlands and cost under forty euro (I seem to remember...)

I think I know what this is going to be  :-\





Yep, one of the "Five Horsemen of the Cycling Apocalypse"  ::)

First invented in the bicycle boom of the 1890s, frequently re-invented every 10-20 years, never commercially successful, and there's good reasons for that.

The other horsemen are elyptical chainrings, automatic gears, airless tyres and shaft-drive.

BTW, saddles have a nose for very good reason. Most people are unaware of how the nose of your saddle assists steering and control.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 03:54:44 am by il padrone »

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #147 on: September 14, 2013, 04:26:09 am »
The other horsemen are elyptical chainrings, automatic gears, airless tyres and shaft-drive.

Ha! On that bike I had two of the horsemen: a noseless saddle and an automatic gearbox.I don't care that they weren't commercially successful. I liked them both because they worked well for me.

And I had an elliptical chainring on a Peugeot in the 90s. That one I hated with a passion.

il padrone

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #148 on: September 14, 2013, 05:21:51 am »
I don't care that they weren't commercially successful. I liked them both because they worked well for me.

Mostly they have not been commercially successful because they don't provide the claimed benefits for most people, have significant disadvantages that outweigh the benefits, and/or are subject to massive failure or huge wear losses after they have been in use for a while.

Great if they work for you, but "one swallow does not a summer make"  ;)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 07:29:41 am by il padrone »

Andre Jute

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Re: Saddles Thread?
« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2013, 04:05:48 pm »
Mostly they have not been commercially successful because they don't provide the claimed benefits for most people, have significant disadvantages that outweigh the benefits, and/or are subject to massive failure or huge wear losses after they have been in use for a while.

Certainly, one of those "horsemen of the apocalypse" that I had experience of, the elliptical chainring, deserved its commercial failure. It sounded plausible to the innocent but was technically misconceived.

Furthermore, I can understand why the automatic gearbox in the full implementation (Shimano Di2 for hub gearboxes, with active suspension driven off the same electronics, the "Smover" combo) failed: once you already have an easy-changing manual hub gearbox (Shimano, SRAM, Rohloff, more) the advantages are subtle. But they are there: you cycle more efficiently (by being always in the right gear and being in it sooner) and you arrive in less time and you're fresher when you arrive. But cyclists, even the rational Dutch, didn't see that as worth a premium. I bought my Trek new, landed, for less than the best Gazelle cost, and received wonderful support from Trek Benelux. I thought it was the bargain of all bargains for a technofreak cyclist. (Those who're wondering what we're talking about can find a description of this rare and wonderful bike in the PDF Andre's Trek Navigator L700 "Smover" available at my bicycling page.)

As for the Cheeko90, if used as intended, as a seat for bolt upright riders cruising the bike paths of Central Park, it is brilliant. It is even brilliant for the lanes. It has its niche.

I understand, intellectually, what the saddle nose is theoretically good for, but I don't hover over my saddle like a racer down on the drops, I sit squarely on it, and my bike was designed from the ground up, with for instance 14 evenly spaced gears, so that I need never stand up on the pedals. I therefore don't need the nose, and found the Cheeko90 good in practice regardless of its condemnation on theoretical grounds totally irrelevant to the Cheeko90 design aims by people with zero on-seat experience.

I replaced the Cheeko90 because the materials used on it started to look a bit tacky after a few years. I replaced it with a Brooks saddle because I'd bought one cheap at a monster half-price sale SJS had a few years ago. I kept the Brooks because it is durable and presentable even when worn. But if I could buy a Cheeko90 covered in Brooks-thickness leather today, my order would be in before another five minutes elapsed, at any price up to 140 British pounds, the current new price of the Brooks B73 I use.

Great if they work for you, but "one swallow does not a summer make"  ;)

Too true, but I'm not trying to make a summer, merely to discover what works for me. There is far too much dumb conformity, and pressure for more dumb conformity, in cycling already. (Most boutique gear isn't technically different: it is just snobbishly exclusive, ostentatious spending on the same thing with a fancier label.)  That's one of the pleasures of this conference, that the contributors are willing to try anything at least once if it makes some kind of sense, so that someone on here, sometime, tried almost everything which has a true advantage under real-life conditions, and can render a reliable opinion.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 04:07:29 pm by Andre Jute »