Author Topic: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?  (Read 170727 times)

David Simpson

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #180 on: April 15, 2015, 08:32:53 pm »
Thanks, mickeg, for a great answer. As I read your description, it finally made sense to me.

It seems that the reason for having an odd-tooth sprocket is so that all of the teeth wear evenly. However, the problem is that the links in the chain do not wear evenly. By "wear", I mean the wearing of the pin which causes the distance between the centers of the links to increase ("chain stretch"). The outer links wear much more than the inner links, since they are the links that are affected by the wear of the pins. On an even-tooth sprocket, each tooth contacts either an inner link or an outer link, but not both. Therefore as the chain link wears, the tooth can wear at a corresponding rate (the outer links and their teeth at a faster rate than the inner links and their teeth). On an odd-tooth sprocket, each tooth contacts both inner links and outer links alternately. As the inner links and outer links wear at different rates, the tooth will get more and more "out of sync" with links, since it cannot perfectly fit both the inner links and the outer links at the same time.

That also explains why you mark your sprocket to indicate which teeth are for inner links and which are for outer links.

I assume that this discussion also applies to chainrings, not just sprockets?

I read Sheldon's page a few years ago. I need to go back and take another look at it.

- Dave

p.s. And thanks to Sammy for asking a great question.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 08:37:42 pm by davidjsimpson »

Danneaux

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #181 on: April 15, 2015, 09:37:50 pm »

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #182 on: August 03, 2015, 12:10:46 am »
This last week of July has been not much fun at all, with temps in excess of 30 degrees for each of the first four days, and the humidex regularly over 40.  I spent a pleasant couple of days in the cool of my basement workshop, tidying up a couple of things on my city bike, and--more important and interesting--tweaking the gear ratios on my Raven. I installed a new, smaller chainring, replacing my Surly stainless 38T with a new Surly 36T, so that I now have a 36 x 17 chainring and cog; and added a new chain as well.

On Thursday, the weather broke with huge late afternoon rain-and-thunderstorm, and Friday was a classically beautiful Ontario summer day: 25, dry, sunny with occasional clouds and a 20 kmh wind from the NW. All the miasmas and airborne particulates from the Ohio valley and the gooey moisture picked up as the SW winds crossed the lakes were swept away and faded to just a bad memory. So I took the Raven for a nice 70 km unloaded test ride up into the Gatineau hills across the river, 3 1/2 hours of riding to check out the new gear ratios, covering all but one of the big hills.

The quick report:

1)   The new ring went on quickly and easily.

2)   Getting the chain length and adjustment was more fiddly, but presented no major problems.

3)   The new ratios worked better than I had expected -- the 5 - 6% gear-inch reduction across the 14 gears of the Rohloff let me keep a much better cadence on climbs, and I spent much more time in both the upper range and in gears 10-11-12 than I normally would on this route with the 38 x 17 combination on the Raven.

4)   So, the 36 x 17 is a keeper, and I won't bother re-fitting the 38T ring at the front. I'd planned to do a loaded test ride of the new combination in the more demanding hills of the Madawaska Highlands later in the summer or fall, and may still do that. But I've been so pleased with my first test ride that I can't see any reason to revert to the 38T ring--I think the lower ratios in #s 1 & 2  especially will make the tough hills that much easier.
 
5)   The 38T ring was very little worn after about 4500 kms over less than 2 riding seasons, and the KMC 8.93 silver chain is less than 50% worn. (If anyone finds themselves within shouting distance of Ottawa, and needs a spare Surly stainless 38T ring, 110 mm 5-bolt pattern, let me know. It's yours for a bottle of braai wine, as we used to call it in SA.)

6)   After just less than 5000 kms, the Rohloff is bedding in nicely, and gets quieter as the mileage increases. The freewheel on the descents still makes a bit of a racket: squirrels chattered at me as I sped down the hills in 13th or 14th, raccoons cursed (I assume) in their tongue, and even the usually imperturbable Bear managed the trick of raising an eyebrow while frowning. (Well, I don't know about any of that last sentence, 'cept for the freewheel's wail, but the critters' reaction seems plausible to me.)

7)   Only question remaining is whether to fit the Hebie 'glider onto the smaller ring. I found that the portion of the 'glider covering the rear of the ring was binding a bit, even after I added more slop to the setup at the front end (top-to-bottom and fore-and-aft) by not setting all the tabs into their slots.  I'm thinking to cut out that section (ignoring the fact that the result will look a bit weird) in the hope of getting rid of the friction against the rear part of the chainring, while still keeping the 'glider's frontal coverage against rain and grit.

Some additional notes on the changeover:

First, the change in ratios. I've attached two tables showing the gear-inch ratios for both the 38 x 17 and 36 x 17 setups. My Raven has Mavic XM719 rims and Marathon Supreme 26 x 1.6 tires. The diameter of the wheel + inflated tire is 25.75".  The 36 x 17 shows 54.54 gear-inches in #11, a reduction of just 3 gear-inches from the 38 x 17, or 5.26%. The change in the feel of the bike seemed much more than 5% -- I found it a lot easier to maintain a comfortable cadence on both steep and more gradual climbs. (The Raven was unloaded, but I've ridden my usual training route often enough with the 38 x 17 setup to say that the new ratios felt noticeably better.)

Secondly, changing the ring was dead simple, a matter of maybe 15 minutes to remove the old chain and ring, clean the bolts and add a touch of blue Loctite, and then install the new 36T ring. I left centring the new ring until I had the new chain in place. When I had the new chain in place, I centred the new ring without much difficulty.  Happily, the tight spot was limited and spread across about 10 - 12 cms of the new chain. One smart but not too heavy poke with my glassfilled rubber deadblow hammer did the necessary: tight spot substantially gone.

The only fiddly bit was the fitting of the new chain--getting the balance between the length of the chain and the adjustment of the EBB.  I had hoped to leave the EBB fixing bolts alone, making the changeover just by calculating the ~ 1" difference in chain length required to fit a chainring which was 2T smaller.  Well, no, not quite: I had some not-big-but-still-irritating problems similar to those described by Steve in his Mercury build. Without going through the numerical details, I had to work back and forth between my new chain (92 links, 2 less than the 94 on the old one, which of course had stretched a bit...), the placement of the EBB, and a couple of KMC Quick-links separated by a half-link. I think that, if I have to take a link out of the chain in the future, I'll be able to do so by removing the half-link and one of the Quick-links, and using the EBB to move the shorter chain backwards...Or maybe not. On va voir, as we say.

An intervening variable in all this is that during my short ten-day tour in Eastern Ontario in mid-July, I had noticed a bit of notchiness from time to time in my right crank arm. On a lazy day beside Lake Ontario, I did some close observation and push-and-pull tests on the crank arms, and found a slight but noticeable bit of play on each arm.  Crank bolts were both very tight, but the axle of the BB seemed to move slightly. I thought I might have a worn Shim UN55 BB; not so. I asked Brad at Tall Tree Cycles, my LBS which had built up the Raven for me, for his reckoning of the health of the BB. He checked, and found that one of my 15mm EBB fixing bolts was loose, and that the EBB was thus shifting slightly in the shell. Yikes!  We tightened the offending item, and during the replacement of the chain, I made sure that once the EBB was rotated for the right tension of the new chain, both bolts were fixed with blue Loctite and properly torqued. I then exhaled.

"Properly torqued" required finding a 15mm x 1/4 drive socket. My nice BBB torque wrench, bought from Wiggle Cycles on Andre's well-founded recommendation :-) lacked a socket of that size. I couldn't chase one down quickly in Ottawa, but found one for C$2.99 in, of all places, the online catalogue of Staples Office Supply, but was dismayed to find that they wanted $15 for shipping it from Tronna (??!!).  Instead, I broke one of my usual rules and ordered one from Amazon.ca for $4.99, added a pair of Cane Creek rubberized bar-ends for my city bike for $50, and got the lot for free shipping from some unknown location, all within 48 hrs. Over the winter, I'll buy a couple of spare 15mm x M8 EBB fixing bolts from SJSC.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 12:14:04 am by John Saxby »

Danneaux

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #183 on: August 03, 2015, 01:10:37 am »
Very nice report, John. Now you an see why I am such a devotee of the 36x17 combo, and why I pine for a Chainglider suitably sized to fit a 36T 'ring.

All the best,

Dan. (...whose hopes spring eternal)

Andre Jute

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #184 on: August 03, 2015, 01:26:22 am »
If I want any stumps pulled out of the ground, I'll send for the Dynamite Rohloff Gang (entry qualification 38x17 or 36x17 gears!).

John, I keep a couple of sets of drive adapters (1/4-3/8-1/2in) so that I can use sockets from bigger sets, or use my bigger torque wrenches on the bike where justified, usually around the crank axle and pedals. If you have two sets so you can get back to the size you start with, these adapters also make a wonderful variable length extender for working on rear brakes without first having to remove the rack, a place where all the official extenders are too long and the unextended tool is deadlocked between the seatstay and the rack, zero movement of the ratchet.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 01:30:31 am by Andre Jute »

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #185 on: August 03, 2015, 02:59:12 am »
"Stump-pullers of the world arise! You have nothing to use but your chains."   ;)

Matt2matt2002

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #186 on: August 03, 2015, 11:23:19 am »
Used 38T/17T and a 'glider on my recent tour.
4 panniers full plus water and food - so a good weight carried.
And a good few mountains climbed. 4 passes over 3,500m and plenty more to tax the leg muscles.

I found the ring sizes ideal.
And the 'glider ideal for keeping the chain clean.
On several stretches the mud would have wrecked anything else.

I don't think I'll ever tour - or ride - without a 'glider now.
Makes no sense to me - exposing a chain to muck n dust, if it can be covered.
Not sure I would sacrifice a perfect ring combo for the glider - but it would be a close call.

A pal of mine said he would never use a 'glider coz he likes to see the tension / slackness of his chain at all times.

It's easy to remove and I don't find my chain suddenly goes slack to any great degree.
Maybe there is a case for out of sight out of mind - so a regular chain inspection is good practice.
But each to their own.

Matt


Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #187 on: August 03, 2015, 02:37:26 pm »
Thanks, Matt. Your 'stans tour gave your 'glider & ring/cog combination a tougher test than anything I'm likely to find in these parts.  I'll see how the 36 x 17 goes on loaded rides across steeper hills, but I'm still interested to see if a modified 'glider can be used effectively with the smaller ring.  Frank Revelo tried it with his Nomad in the back country of the US West, if I recall correctly, and threw it away.  Don't expect to have to deal with quite as much mud as you did, nor quite as much dust as our Westerners face.

Danneaux

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #188 on: August 03, 2015, 05:14:11 pm »
I'll be watching eagerly, John. To Noble Experiments!

All the best <and thanks!>,

Dan. (...who appreciates your giving it a try)

mickeg

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #189 on: August 03, 2015, 06:51:08 pm »
...
An intervening variable in all this is that during my short ten-day tour in Eastern Ontario in mid-July, I had noticed a bit of notchiness from time to time in my right crank arm. On a lazy day beside Lake Ontario, I did some close observation and push-and-pull tests on the crank arms, and found a slight but noticeable bit of play on each arm.  Crank bolts were both very tight, but the axle of the BB seemed to move slightly. I thought I might have a worn Shim UN55 BB; not so. I asked Brad at Tall Tree Cycles, my LBS which had built up the Raven for me, for his reckoning of the health of the BB. He checked, and found that one of my 15mm EBB fixing bolts was loose, and that the EBB was thus shifting slightly in the shell. Yikes!  We tightened the offending item, and during the replacement of the chain, I made sure that once the EBB was rotated for the right tension of the new chain, both bolts were fixed with blue Loctite and properly torqued. I then exhaled.
...

Note the rubber band I use to keep my bolts from coming unthreaded.  I tried the blue Locktite but was unhappy with it over time.  I have not gotten around to cutting new rubber bands from an old inner tube, but plan to.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11125.0

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2015, 09:29:00 pm »
Thanks, mickeg, I noticed that photo of your Nomad.  Am thinking that's another use for my go-to fixit-thing: QR rubber ties which I get from Lee Valley Tools, the small 4" variety in the photo below.

(I use these for all kinds of things on the bike & in camping:  Extra security holding the pump & its holder to the frame; tensioning the partly-open doors on my tent to their pegs; brake-bands, locking the levers;  tensioning tarp guylines around trees; wrapping front wheel & downtube to stabilize the wheel when the bike's on the repair stand; compressing rain gear, thermarests, etc., to save pannier space; etc., etc. They're inexpensivve, and very durable.  I get them here:  http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=65393&cat=2,43319,33283 -- never seen them elsewhere.)

Andre Jute

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2015, 10:38:03 pm »
Thanks, mickeg, I noticed that photo of your Nomad.  Am thinking that's another use for my go-to fixit-thing: QR rubber ties which I get from Lee Valley Tools, the small 4" variety in the photo below.

Isn't it always the small repurposed tools and tips and tricks that make your life so much more convenient that you don't even want to remember how you managed before?

Just last week i noticed that Schwalbe holds new tubes rolled in the box with thin rubber bands cut from ... tubes. I take it as a small hint that a) they test tubes and b) they don't sell tested prototypes as new and c) they waste nothing, which makes their prices more palatable.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:03:44 am by Andre Jute »

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #192 on: August 04, 2015, 01:48:55 am »
Quote
they waste nothing
  Good for Schwalbe, sez I.

Aou'll recall from life in Africa, Andre, the extravagant range of uses people found for old car- and bike-tire inner tubes.  My anti-baboon catapault from Namibia (now used to chase raccoons that get too close to the BBQ) owes its considerable power to a good-quality strip of HD inner tube.

Andre Jute

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #193 on: August 04, 2015, 11:19:55 am »
My anti-baboon catapault from Namibia (now used to chase raccoons that get too close to the BBQ) owes its considerable power to a good-quality strip of HD inner tube.

You're a dangerous man, John Saxby! I fondly remember a square-rubber cattie from the fork of a walnut tree that was blown down in our orchard. Put a small ballbearing in it and it became a teenage Weatherby .460 Magnum. Back then remote farmers kept a baboon as a watchdog; on run of blue fence wire pegged at each end; they were extremely dangerous animals, made a Rhodesian Ridgeback look like a little old lady's lapdog. I imagine you've seen the famous Raleigh poster of a black man pedalling like crazy while chased by a lion in full mane (a stupid mistake to the eyes of anyone who's ever been in Africa); in math class at school, a dreamy boy drew a cartoon of this poster, substituting for the simply-wrong lion an angry baboon.

John Saxby

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Re: What's your Rohloff combo (chainring, cog)?
« Reply #194 on: August 04, 2015, 07:19:40 pm »
Baboons and raccoons seem to be the cross-continental counterparts, Andre. (Some deep symmetry reflected by the double vowels and double consonants, maybe?) (In North America, wolverines are the really tough customers, but their habitat has been so diminished by us humans that they're rarely seen, except in the more remote areas of the NW.)  Sharp claws and teeth both of them, and they're clever, resilient critters, confident and bolshie 'cos they scare the bejeezus out of a lot of people, and they know it. Suburban (and increasingly, urban) dwellers in Canadian cities and towns spend a fair bit of time and money seeking garbage cans which are raccoon-proof.  Raccoons seem to have decided, "Sod the wild, it's disappearing anyway. I'm going to town, where the food is."