How much is any increment in your safety worth?

[Andre Jute]

Question to Andre: "I use my BUMM lights in combination with a Cateye TL LD-1100 with both rows on flash, a killer combination". That's the setup I would like to have, but I'm wondering, did you manage to fit both lights on the rear carrier, or did you mount the Cateye somewhere else (eg seat post)?

Thanks
Yorgos

My BUMM Line is attached to the bracket on the Tubus Cosmo rack.

The Cateye TL-LD1100 is tiewrapped to the rear crossrail of the rack, on top of it. You can't hang it below because then it blocks the Line. Fortunately, on my bike there is clear space there, because I don't use a rack top bag but a saddlebag (a big leather weekend bag) sitting crosswise on the rack, and never carry anything else on the rack because either a pannier basket or a pannier briefcase or another pannier bag is always attached to the bike as I like carrying stuff low down (my typical shopping is a case of wine...)

The 1100 also needs a tie wrap across it from side to side because I've lost an end cap, which ruined the first one I bought.

To orient you, you can see the back pockets of my saddlebag in the centre, on the left the brown leather toolbar, on the right the rearward hook of the pannier basket, both the toolbar and the basket attaching to the lower rail of the Tubus Cosmo rack. The shiny metal is the stainless steel of the rack, the Line below it, the Cateye sitting on top of it, the arrangement of the tiewraps clear.

I considered seatpost and luggage mounting for the Cateye but found that the best control over the direction and visibility  of the lamp was on the rear edge of the rack. Also, my bike is huge, so the rear edge of the rack is nicely positioned to shine right into the eyes of any careless driver. There is absolutely no possibility of a driver not seeing me from anywhere on a 270 degree arc, and that's just my rear lamps.

Andre Jute

[No]

Thanks for the further references, Dan. I've seen the Philips Saferide lumiring lamp and would have been more impressed if its light output were greater. I am not interested in sacrificing my safety for the convenience of motorists. The principle behind the Philips design is mutual cooperation on the road, and the writer of the article assumes it axiomatically. But drivers in the States, in Britain and here in Ireland don't cooperate with cyclists in the way they do in The Netherlands where a different presumption of the burden of proof in auto/cycle accidents has created an entirely different attitude on the part of motorists, which causes them actively to look out for cyclists not to hit, which in turn makes the Philips light useful, perhaps even superior as the writer claims. In any event, it makes it the decent thing to do in The Netherlands not to irritate drivers. The purpose of my Catseye TL LD-1100, with both bars run on interfering blinking patterns whenever the bike moves day and night, a lamp I use in addition to a steady BUMM light, is specifically to catch every motorist's eye, and I don't care a damn if people who routinely mishandle their lethal instruments within six inches of me are irritated because I know that otherwise they won't even see me.

Il Padrone: I also run my Cyo front light day and night; I just don't see the point of turning off a lamp with a 50K hours life expectancy. And, as a longtime believer in Volvo estates for my wife and child's safety (but dull for me, though I liked one I fitted with small block Chevy), I like daylight running lights not only for myself, but also appreciate them on other people's cars  and bikes as making them visible further away.

Stuntpilot, I think you will find that the German law was made at a time when blinkies were limp. The other evening I came out onto a busy road, cars, buses, motorbikes, bicycles, and the vehicle visible furthest away, and which transfixed me even when past me, was a bicycle ridden with verve by a young lady, blinkies like spawn of Satan front and rear, buses and motorcars braking to let her in. She was riding that bike like I used to drive a Porsche in traffic when I was young. I back up my front Cyo with a blinkie that cost a tenner and is a good deal leas puissant than whatever she uses, but is still clearly visible in traffic 300 yards away, which should be good enough. I think we're approaching the point in the brightness of blinkies where that old shibboleth, that a blinkie acts as a magnet for the half-asleep driver who will drive directly to the point of the accident which the cyclist can't win, could soon come true. But, until it is proven true, I shall be buying blinkies. By the way, where I previously lived I was on the main road down the Carbery Coast. I used to stand on the pavement and stop the bicyclists coming by -- hardly any of them local, almost all foreign tourists -- and have a chat. Almost all the Germans, the moment they were out from under their silly laws, fitted blinkies for touring in countries where they are permitted. Only the most uptight, those who bristle at even an unintended and tenuous suggestion that they might not be perfectly law-abiding, stick with the steady lamp only. I received my first grounding in bicycle accident statistics, and my abiding interest in bike lamps, from one of these Germans I stopped beside the road to ask if I could look at his BUMM halogen lamp (gee, I'm giving away my age!); several of them were keen on reading Ken Kifer, an American who stripped away roadie prejudice and bias to study the statistics rationally. He taught me that the most important blinkie is actually the front one, to stop idiots hitting you from rights angles by showing them that you're coming, and the brighter lit the junction, the more important the blinkie becomes. A lot of this stuff is counter-intuitive.

Andre Jute

In downpours and fog you need an even brighter blinky IMO. If it's too bright you can always point one or all to the ground (I use two 400r's actually). I learned this the hard way in a downpour once. Came out safe luckily enough. I had two of the tld-1000, predecessor to the 1100. And that still wasn't enough. That dude makes an even brighter one now. Twice as bright as the 400r.

[Andre Jute]

In downpours and fog you need an even brighter blinky IMO. If it's too bright you can always point one or all to the ground (I use two 400r's actually). I learned this the hard way in a downpour once. Came out safe luckily enough. I had two of the tld-1000, predecessor to the 1100. And that still wasn't enough. That dude makes an even brighter one now. Twice as bright as the 400r.

Interesting perspective.

But I'm not so sure that in a fog or heavy rain more light, beyond a point x, is beneficial. What you have is the fog or the rain acting as a curtain of filter material. What you want to do is light up the curtain with an even glow. More lumens won't light up further beyond the curtain, or even, given the square-root formula of light intensity with distance, make it much larger. In fact, logically the opposite applies: instead of a good lane wide block of diffuse light seen by the driver, and locating the obstacle, he might see a much more diffuse glow wider than the road and not locating the obstacle, you on your bike, clearly at all. On hand of this logic I conclude that heavy rain and fog, especially after dark, makes having just the right amount of light thrown more critical than in most other situations.

[triaesthete]

Absolutely correct Andre. My practical experience fully supports your logic.

Less is more....

Ian

[No]

Interesting perspective.

But I'm not so sure that in a fog or heavy rain more light, beyond a point x, is beneficial. What you have is the fog or the rain acting as a curtain of filter material. What you want to do is light up the curtain with an even glow. More lumens won't light up further beyond the curtain, or even, given the square-root formula of light intensity with distance, make it much larger. In fact, logically the opposite applies: instead of a good lane wide block of diffuse light seen by the driver, and locating the obstacle, he might see a much more diffuse glow wider than the road and not locating the obstacle, you on your bike, clearly at all. On hand of this logic I conclude that heavy rain and fog, especially after dark, makes having just the right amount of light thrown more critical than in most other situations.

I just figured having as much light as possible flashing and blinking around would make the driver more likely to slow down and watch out while distracted by a storm. It's not just about seeing, it's about noticing too. Although I must admit I didn't understand your post from the 4th sentence onward.

[triaesthete]

No,
I wager the driver will now be distracted by your lights as well as the storm and that will further impair their judgement whilst you are now an indistinct blur across the windscreen. A lot of drivers in my experience just plough on regardless in poor visibility and hope for the best.....

Good luck
Ian

[Danneaux]

Hi All!

It appears the BUMM Toplight Line Plus has some company in the form of the Trelock LS 813 Trio Flat, which appears to use a very similar prism lens design the call "Light Guide" It does appear to lack the manual standlight shutoff swith of the Toplight Line Plus.
See: http://www.trelock.de/web/en/produkte/fahrrad-beleuchtung/dynamo-rueckleuchte/8002305_LS_813.php
For photo in operation, see: http://www.trelock.de/web/_bilder/startseite/wechselbilder/2012/LS_813_trio_flat.jpg

I notice they are available from Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trelock-Light-black-dynamo-lights/dp/B006MQY8XQ ...and at least one US shop... http://www.cantitoeroad.com/Trelock-LS813-Rear-Tailight

Best,

Dan. (...who is pleased to see more examples of the LED prism-spread design on the market)

[martinf]

I like mudguard mounted rear lamps, some of the family bikes don't have mounting fittings on the racks and 2 of them don't have racks.

There is now a mudguard mounting lamp using the same kind of concept as the Philips Saferide lumiring and B&M Line Plus:

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/achterlampen/BM_secula/index_en.html

This has just become available at some German and French webmerchants, and ought to be better than the point-source B&M Seculite lamps I have at present.

On a couple of bikes (Raven, old 5-speed) I have a Line Plus on the rack and a Seculite on the mudguard, they run off the SON generator.

Idea being that the mudguard mounted lamp will still be visible if floppy luggage on the rack partly obscures the Line Plus.

[Danneaux]

Hi Martin!

Like you, I really like the idea of lights mounted on the rear mudguard. I have had some, and simply loved them. the Secula certainly looks the business and is detailed in the 2013 B&M catalog here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Downloads/B&M_2013.pdf page 18.

However...

My only reservations about 'guard mounted taillights come from past experience where I encountered several unanticipated hazards:

1) In a fall-over, the lights proved unusually subject to damage. Until I had one, I hadn't anticipated the tail-end of the mudguard could possibly contact the ground first...but, sadly, it did (the light extended its reach to\ward the ground with the bike on its side). They are also subject to damage from self-closing doors when leaving public restrooms and -- when one is really tired on a 400km day ride -- manage to find whatever obstacle is in the way when one lifts the bike to swing it around prior to remounting after a break-stop. I long ago noticed the European iterations of these lights sometimes come with a little plastic "cage" to protect the light. I even say one made of vinyl-dipped lightweight steel wire once. Brilliant idea, but so far unavailable to me Over Here. They're shown on page 27 of B&M's catalog at the above link. Maybe one of my Dutch pals could pick one up for me.

2) In some installations where the mudguard stays must be long (as with a 700C wheel and mounting to the dropout eye), the added mass of the taillight can cause a plastic mudguard to crack and fail on cobbles and really rough roads, or the peened rivets to stretch and open.

If I could only solve those problems in my use, I'd put one right on every bike I own. Martin, have you experienced such problems? If so, how did you overcome them?

All the best,

Dan. (...who wants a lantern rouge at the end of his train)

[martinf]

Hi Martin!

Like you, I really like the idea of lights mounted on the rear mudguard. I have had some, and simply loved them. the Secula certainly looks the business and is detailed in the 2013 B&M catalog here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Downloads/B&M_2013.pdf page 18.

However...

My only reservations about 'guard mounted taillights come from past experience where I encountered several unanticipated hazards:

1) In a fall-over, the lights proved unusually subject to damage. Until I had one, I hadn't anticipated the tail-end of the mudguard could possibly contact the ground first...but, sadly, it did (the light extended its reach to\ward the ground with the bike on its side). They are also subject to damage from self-closing doors when leaving public restrooms and -- when one is really tired on a 400km day ride -- manage to find whatever obstacle is in the way when one lifts the bike to swing it around prior to remounting after a break-stop. I long ago noticed the European iterations of these lights sometimes come with a little plastic "cage" to protect the light. I even say one made of vinyl-dipped lightweight steel wire once. Brilliant idea, but so far unavailable to me Over Here. They're shown on page 27 of B&M's catalog at the above link. Maybe one of my Dutch pals could pick one up for me.

2) In some installations where the mudguard stays must be long (as with a 700C wheel and mounting to the dropout eye), the added mass of the taillight can cause a plastic mudguard to crack and fail on cobbles and really rough roads, or the peened rivets to stretch and open.

If I could only solve those problems in my use, I'd put one right on every bike I own. Martin, have you experienced such problems? If so, how did you overcome them?

All the best,

Dan. (...who wants a lantern rouge at the end of his train)

I've been using mudguard-mounted lamps since about 1980.

Problem 1:

In France mudguard-mounted lamps used to come with a chrome-plated steel cage that fitted around the lamp. Heavy but effective. I used to have these cages on family bikes with stainless-steel mudguards, still got them on the 2 visitor bikes that get abused. But I didn't like the extra weight on plastic mudguards (problem 2), so I do without on my own bikes that have these. Sometimes I have bumped or scratched a rear lamp, but so far never destroyed one, if I ever do, I reckon on just replacing it, these lamps are inexpensive.

Problem 2:

Yes. The extra weight can add to mudguard failure. That said, my old mountain bike has had a mudguard-mounted rear lamp since I bought it, and is only on its second set of mudguards (albeit held together with duck tape since 2010). Mudguards and lamp survived my 2011 Spain tour, partly off road.

My 700C lightweight has had a mudguard-mounted rear lamp on a lightweight plastic mudguard for years, but is only used on smooth surfaces. 

[il padrone]

Four of our bikes have SKS chromoplastic mudguards with B&M Seculites mounted on them. All the bikes have kickstands so we don't go laying them down very often. The tail-lights have been in use for the past 4-10 years and we have had negligable problems, few knocks or bashes. I took a spill once and popped the light cover off - simple matter to refasten it. My son managed to knock the cover off his and lost it. SJS Cycles sell replacement light covers so I bought a couple.

The Seculite is really very low weight so I don't see any problems with added stress to the mudguard.

It seemed to stand up to this 'off-road' tour quite well