Author Topic: Brake Rub  (Read 4268 times)

allywatt

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Brake Rub
« on: March 07, 2012, 12:02:38 pm »
Simple question, but it's causing me a headache...

When I stand up on the pedals, my Nomad brake pads start to rub on the front rims - Andra 30 rims, Smtd Dyno-hub, SD V-brakes.

I have looked at the wheel for a buckle, centered the brakes, checked the wheel bearing for play and can find no fault.  I've never tried this before, but I can press the rim against the brake block with a strong thumb push when the wheel is on the bike - is this normal, and have I missed something obvious?

Just a thought, but could tyre pressure be to blame?

Many thanks.

StuntPilot

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 01:17:09 pm »
Hi allywatt

??? If you can move the rim towards the brake pad it sounds like the hub bearings might we loose or worn. Also is the wheel firmly attached to the forks? Are all spokes equally tensioned? Just a few thoughts.

Standing on the pedals may be enough to put additional weight forward to the front wheel to move the wheel to the brake pad if it was the bearings or spokes. I am not an expert but just thinking about the physics of what is happening here.

JimK

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 01:21:34 pm »
That sounds frustrating! I tried pushing sideways on my rim - yeah, it does have some flex, but I would say roughly that my brake pads are about 2mm from the rim and I could move the rim over maybe 0.5mm with a good firm push with my thumb.

Inadequate spoke tension would be one possible cause of excessive lateral compliance.

I hope you figure it out without too much trouble!

BTW, I want to buy myself a good spoke wrench, but I don't know what size nipples I am likely to have on my Thorn-built wheels (Andra 30 rims). Is there a general rule, or just needs a measurement?

revelo

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 09:05:13 pm »
I noticed the front wheel alignment on my Nomad (with Hope Pro 3 hubs) is quite sensitive to quick-release pressure. maybe the dyno hubs are the same way. Make sure the wheel is fully seated in the fork before applying the quick-release, and then make sure the quick-release is applying the "right" amount of pressure. There are various rules of thumb as to what the right pressure is. Too much pressure might damage the hub bearings. http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=22

@JimK: My Thorn-built Andra 30 rims require a 3.23mm spoke wrench (Sapim brass 2mm x 14mm nipples), but you could ask Thorn to be sure. The spoke wrench should be a tight fit. A loose fit runs the risk of rounding off the square edges of the nipple. Due to manufacturing tolerances, it is common to have to struggle to get the spoke wrench around a few of the nipples on a wheel, while other nipples will fit easily into the spoke wrench.

JimK

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 01:01:02 am »
I gambled and just went ahead and bought the 3.23 mm spoke wrench. I figure I will end up with several sizes before too long - mostly I just don't want to buy anything esoteric needlessly.

The 3.23 fits my nipples just fine - a bit of play, but then this is the smallest size wrench, so it oughtn't be more play than is usual!


allywatt

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 09:17:22 pm »
JimK,

Glad you got your spoke wrench.

I emailed SJS about my brake rub problem; normal flexing in forks, suggested letting a little brake cable through (why didn't I think of that first off!).  Having done what they suggested I now have no rub when I stand on the pedals and my braking is still ok, but why do I feel that I've addressed the symptom and not the cause? 

Anyway, life is too short, and I'm embarking on purchasing a charger/cache battery to go in betwixd the dynohub and my iphone 4.  There's some good stuff on this forum about chargers - thanks to all for contributing to the 'knowledge'.  It really does make a difference when doing research.  I want to be able to charge my iphone, camera and old magellan GPS when on tour - all requiring different voltages.  As far as I can sus out the only player in town is the ewerk.  I've been told that as long as the phone runs firmware 4.2 or earlier then the ewerk will do fine.  If I leave the camera and GPS at home and rely only on the iphone, then the Plug 2 would be my first choice solution - what a neat well enginerered piece of kit!  Any comments on my choices/ poor logic would be much appreciated - apologies for change of topic!

Ali

Danneaux

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 09:43:05 pm »
Hey there, Ali, hello!

If you can post under the Lighting and Electronics' child board, "Battery Charging from a Dynamo", I'll be happy to make a reply to your question about chargers.

(just thinking it will be easier for future searches if the battery charging stuff is all in the same place and not mixed-in with spoke wrenches and wobbledy wheels  ;)).

All the best,

Dan.

allywatt

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 09:29:55 pm »
Dan,

You are quite correct - will repost to other board.  Thanks for keeping me right.

Back to my wheel rub, or lack of it because I've backed off some brake cable.  A good friend lent me a Park Tool TM-1 Spoke Tension Meter.  I've been round both sides of the front and back wheels, just to compare, and have come up with the following:

Front: LHS Average tension 19.6 (approx 110 Kgf), RHS Average tension 19.6.  Max tension 22.5, min tension 17.

Rear: LHS Average tension 22 (approx 137Kgf), RHS Average tension 22.  Max tension 24, Min tension 16.

The max/min results all fall within the 20% tolerance (apart from one spoke showing 16 on back wheel) as described in the Park Tool instructions (don't know any better!).

I would appreciate advice on whether my spoke tension on the front wheel is too low.  What can I safely go up to with Andra 30 rims and 1.8mm round steel spokes.  Is it normal for back wheel spoke tensions to be higher than front?


Danneaux

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 10:33:29 pm »
Hi Ali,

I can offer this bit from the Park Tools website...
Quote
The recommended tension for spokes in bicycle wheels can be as low as 80 Kilograms force (Kgf) and as high as 230 Kilograms force. As a rule of thumb, it is best to set tension as high as the weakest link in the system will allow, which for a bicycle wheel is usually the rim. Therefore, to obtain a spoke tension recommendation for a specific wheel, it is best to contact the rim manufacturer.
...from: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/wheel-tension-measurement

Based on your average measurements, you're a bit low in the overall range as referenced by Park (midway in their overall regardless of rim weight is 155Kgf; they would recommend higher tensions for heavier rims, as shown below). As to the specific range recommended by Rigida for the Andra 30...that's where things get a bit more murky, thanks to Rigida's recent history: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3571.0 I don't at present know where to find the factory-recommended figures for the Andra 30. If I can track down the specs for you, I'll post them in a followup.

Looking back at the full article on the Park site, they correctly state that "correct" tension will vary according to a number of factors, including spoke gauge and rim "weight" ("weight" being a proxy for not only mass, but construction, i.e. lightweight rims will be built of thinner extrusions than heavy-duty rims). Their general rule is, go with lesser tensions for light rims and higher tensions for heavy rims. According to Park's own figures, a "heavy" rim is one weighing more than 450g. The presence and absence of eyelets makes some difference (though the Andra eschews eyelets in favor of a heavy longitudinal central rib and centering sockets for the spoke nipples), as does anodizing (in my experience, Mavic MA-2 rims were always able to take much higher tension than their MA-40 brethren. The anodizing on the MA-40s was often breached by the factory setting/clinching of the eyelets, creating stress risers at the eyelet edges that would frequently propagate cracks if built with higher tensions).

Park further state...
Quote
Tire pressure will have the effect of lowering the tension of the wheel. Generally, do not try to account for this drop by adding more tension then recommended by the manufacturer.
...and this is true; compression caused by high tire pressure has the effect of squashing the rim smaller, thereby lowering spoke tension -- and the rim will pull toward the drive side, which has higher tension in a dished wheel. Ali...did you measure your spoke tension with a tire mounted and inflated, or as a bare set of wheels? This could account for some variation. I once built a set of track wheels for a friend who was using extremely high pressures in his tires. I could not keep the wheels perfectly tensioned/centered unless I tensioned and dished them with the tires on and pressurized or under-dished them slightly with the tires off. The compressive effect on the extremely light rims was just too great, as was the variation in spoke tension for the bare wheel compared to one with the tires mounted and aired-up (225psi/15.5bar). The downside was effective spoke tension soared when the tires were deflated after use, as was the custom. Fortunately, there was never a rim failure, but I can see it could happen. Honestly, I wouldn't expect them to last long with a great number of de/compression cycles, but these were his special "race" wheels and saw little actual use.

Ali, what I have always tried to do is to concentrate on reducing variations in spoke tension so the wheel so the tension is as consistent as possible across (one side of) the wheel. I don't want my highest-tension spokes to exceed the recommended variation, yet try to get the lesser spokes to vary from the highest by the minimal amount possible (an average spoke tension based on a narrow overall range). The result is a wheel with high average tension. The reality of the situation is rims are often less than round, and there is a lot of variation in spoke-hole concentricity -- the hub flange holes aren't always the same distance from the axle.

You asked...
Quote
Is it normal for back wheel spoke tensions to be higher than front?
On a derailleur rear wheel, the dish can account for variations in wheel tension compared to the symmetrical (undished) front. For a dished rear wheel, go with the drive-side tension for a maximum. As Park correctly state, "it is important to only compare the tension of a spoke relative to spokes on the same side of the wheel". If all other parameters are the same i.e. equal flange height and spoke length and the wheels are symmetrical in dish -- or nearly so as in the case of a Rohloff-hubbed wheel -- then front and rear wheel tensions will be similar. Usually, they differ for the reasons listed above.

May I suggest a couple additional links you might find helpful?:
http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2009/08/wheel-building-tip-no-5-be-wheel.html
http://wheelfanatyk.blogspot.com/2011/12/wheel-building-tip-no-14-set-spoke-path.html <-- Elbow setting makes a difference!

Having gone at some length, I think your reported spoke tensions may be a bit low for a heavy rim like the Andra 30. If you check again, make sure you're taking the average per side of wheel, and that you're taking the tension with bare wheels (preferred) or deflated tires (acceptable). A personal concern: Given the rare but occasional incidence of Rohloff flange failure, I would err a bit on the slack side to avoid stressing those flanges unduly.

Sorry I can't be more specific at present; perhaps this will still be of some help?

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:16:24 pm by Danneaux »

allywatt

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 01:29:56 pm »
Thanks for the detailed reply Dan.

I'll check again with a bare wheel, and if still a little on the low side, I'll give each spoke a tiny tweak. 

This wheel building certainly is all consuming!  Thanks for the links, I particularly enjoyed the 'wheel whisperer'.  Direct measurement using a meter is quicker initially if you don't know what you're up to, but being able to feel and hear the tension seems to me to be the way forward from a practical point of view - how many of us would take a tension meter on tour?  Since I'm new to this game, I'm going to try and up the average tension on an old wheel first - my worry is that, due to my inexperience, I'll up the tension and in doing so put the wheel out of true.  I'll report back once I've had a go.  Many thanks again for your advice.

Danneaux

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 03:28:17 pm »
You're welcome, Ali.

My only remaining cautions as you practice on the old wheel are to:

First lube the nipple/rim interface to reduce friction at the seat, then...

1) Add additional tension in small increments
...and...
2) Stress-relieve the wheels each go-'round (watching also for spoke wind-up and backing off a partial turn with every up-tensioning is necessary. Hint: Take a permanent marker and draw it along the length of a spoke, then adjust it for tension, watching the painted line. If the spokes are light -- say 15/16g butted or otherwise light -- you'll see the spoke wind-up and will know how much to back off to compensate. Alternatively, you can hold the spoke with smooth-jawed pliers or a Fourth Hand to prevent wind-up. Stress-relieve by grabbing and squeezing pairs of parallel spokes on each side).
...and...
3) Check/adjust for concentricity (roundness) and trueness and dish ("centeredness") with each go-'round till you get a feel for things.

Doing all three in turn will minimize the chances for trouble and will give you a better feel for tension and the dynamics at play as forces build.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:35:43 pm by Danneaux »

allywatt

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2012, 05:17:58 pm »
Thank you - Problem Solved!

Spent a great 2 hours in the shed this morning. A good friend lent me his wheel jig.  Practiced upping the tension on an old wheel to get the feel of things, then got my Nomad front wheel off.  Yes, I did remember to deflate the tyre.  Checking the tension on the deflated rim with tyre still on gave tension readings of, on average, 2 points on the tension meter scale greater than with the tyre inflated to 40 psi; the tensions involved with track tyres inflated to over 200psi must be huge!  Went round twice, quarter turn each time, stess releaving as I went.  Average spoke tension has now been upped from 110Kgf to 140 Kgf, a modest increase I suppose, but I didn't want to overdo things.  After putting the wheel back on the bike, I found that I could take back in the little cable that I let out in the first place to stop the brake rub - remember this story started about brake rub - and stand up on the pedals really going for it, with no brake rub at all.

Up until this morning, I have stayed well away from any sort of wheel tinkering.  Thanks to your encouragement Dan I was able to make the leap of faith and have a go.  I now feel confident enough to replace a broken spoke and true a wheel when on tour.  I must also thank my friend Chris for the loan of his jig, the tension meter and his patience.  I'm planning a 5 oo 6 day tour in a weeks time, and hopefully won't have to put my new skills to the test.

Bye for now,
Ali


Danneaux

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Re: Brake Rub
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 05:40:06 pm »
Yay, Ali!  Good on you!

The nicest thing about gaining experience with wheels (traditionally the biggest mechanical fear among cyclists) is it fosters true independence and self-sufficiency through de-mystification. You're all set from now on, and can easily tackle a 'round-the-globe ride as well as regular maintenance. Really proud of you, and you can feel justifiably proud yourself! Excellent!

Thanks for letting us know the problem is solved.

Looking forward to hearing about your trip, and hoping we might even see some photos in the gallery upon your return. All best wishes for a safe, happy, fun Adventure!

Best,

Dan.