Author Topic: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!  (Read 7456 times)

Danneaux

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Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« on: February 04, 2012, 03:39:35 am »
Hi All,

Today was lovely here in the Willamette Valley, and I took Sherpa out of his stable for a nice, long airing. Loved it, and piled on some distance in between exploring some dirt and gravel byways like the aptly-named "Cottontail Road" (we saw several of the small rabbits that live there, which was a treat).

As we rode along on pavement again, I noticed a couple guys coming up behind on some really outstanding carbon bikes.  As they closed, they began to comment, somewhat unkindly, on Sherpa, pointing to his fenders and racks and lights and such as hallmarks of a novice rider. They seemed confused by the Thorn name, concluded it must be a department-store brand, advised me to get something better, and rode on past with some derisive laughter.

This is a not unusual reaction to my touring and rando bikes by those on dedicated racing machines here, and a thorough razzing is apparently part and parcel of a scene where light weight and aerodynamics are valued above durability, cargo capacity, and versatility. As they headed toward the horizon, I noticed they passed some of the more interesting unpaved byways in favor of pavement, riding side-by-side and holding up irritated drivers in the traffic lane. They even tossed some banana skins and orange peels on the shoulder, which I stopped and put in the trash sack I carry for such occasions.

In the larger picture, I count their reaction as a Good Thing; if the Thorn name is unknown here and Sherpa undervalued, it bodes well for avoiding future theft and loss. A good day in all, and a wonderful ride, as always.

Just wondering...is there a racer/tourist split in your locale, or is what you're riding at the time regarded as just part of the larger cycling spectrum and a matter of horses for courses? Here, it seems to be either/or instead of "and".

Best,

Dan.

Cambirder

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 09:41:46 am »
I hate these snobs, but luckily I think they they are in a very small minority (at least around here they are) The worst reaction I get when being quickly overtaken by a slick carbon bike ridden by a fit young person is to be ignored because the are too concentrated on their cycling computer, but most give a cheery hello on their way past.

One of the reasons I've quickly got hooked on audaxing, is the almost total lack of bike snobbery. No one cares if you are riding £5000 worth of bike or one salvaged from a skip. 

Relayer

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 10:07:19 am »

Just wondering...is there a racer/tourist split in your locale, or is what you're riding at the time regarded as just part of the larger cycling spectrum and a matter of horses for courses? Here, it seems to be either/or instead of "and".

Best,

Dan.


Hi Dan

Around the Edinburgh/Lothians area of Scotland where I live and do most of my cycling my perception is that of "horses for courses".

In the city there is a healthy volume of every kind of bike imaginable on the streets, including rickshaws!  There is a variety of pro-cycling groups in Edinburgh including a very effective cycling campaigning group called 'Spokes', there are 'critical mass' rides, CTC campaigning ... so utility cycling has a reasonably high profile, besides a 600 strong [Edinburgh] Road Club.

Images from Edinburgh  
http://edinburghcyclechic.wordpress.com/

However I usually ride on rural roads where I come across 'roadies' on fast bikes in the usual lycra trade/Rapha gear. Most roadies will respond to a wave or a hello, but some do not - either intent on their training readouts or simply too aloof to acknowledge the presence of what I suppose they perceive to be non-athletes.

The opposite end of the spectrum is the odd one who will say hello and start a conversation, "nice day for a ride", "where are you going to/from?", "is that a Rohloff?", "oh a Mercian - they are good bikes!"  ;D

I am happy to say that I have never had the kind of disrespect you describe from another cyclist ... youngsters in less salubrious suburban areas yes, boy-racers in noisy cars with fancy alloy wheels yes, but cyclists no.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 10:09:28 am by Relayer »

StuntPilot

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 01:30:16 pm »
Agree Relayer, people in the UK seem to say hello unless they are absorbed in some fitness training, group cycle, or staring at the computer. Most cyclists usually smile and say hello. It does not seem to matter what kind of bike you have. In Edinburgh it even seems slightly 'cool' to have an a non-flashy or beat-up one. They fit well with the ancient city surrounds. With the cobbled streets and potholes, it makes sense to have a solid bike. I doubt many carbon racing bikes would survive daily use in the conditions there. Like the web site!

Dan - if flash racers did start a condescending conversation with you then I would just tell them that the Sherpa is a cheap bike and praise their fragile carbon egos (while, of course, at the same time inwardly smiling and feeling smug with yourself and your magnificent bike!) Don't let the secret out! Lets put the word around to the uninitiated that they are nothing special. Real cyclists know otherwise. I like that Thorns are basic looking, some say a bit ugly (on another thread I remember) and very unassuming, and as you say that is a good impression for them to have!

Anyone cycling and dropping litter is not very intelligent anyway.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 01:32:27 pm by StuntPilot »

Danneaux

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 06:31:22 pm »
Thanks for your collective thoughts! Much appreciated, and it gives me further insight beyond my corner of the world.  When I ride, I think. I rode yesterday and thought for a bit...

One thing became immediately clear to me when I toured The Netherlands, Belgium, and western France: Bicycles were integrated in those places in ways they have not been here in the US, and are unlikely to be. We here in the States are orders of magnitude more car-centric, partly due to greater distances between towns, the lack of a village-development model, and a general lack of infrastructure to support non-motorized transport. All of this has fostered great primary dependence on cars; my neighbor uses his truck to get beer from the convenience store barely a km away, rather than walking or cycling to get it. As noted in another post, our mass transit options (where available) take place within towns, not between them. Our rail system is shot, and Greyhound and Trailways are essentially dead as mass providers of long-distance bus service. As a result, bikes are not viewed as a vital piece of the societal transport infrastructure. Instead, they are generally seen as toys for children or (expensive) toys (and sporting goods) for adults. In the last 30 years or so, bicycling here has taken much the same course as skiing or tennis; becoming more equipment-oriented than human-centered. Part and parcel of that is an increasing perception that one can buy expertise through better equipment rather than earning it through training. As one rider told me recently, "I don't have time to get in shape, and I don't want to work any harder than I have to. If I can exercise with less work than fine by me". We also have a national problem with obesity. Things have changed since the mid-'70s Bikecentennial era, when we were in the midst of a national fuel crisis and cycle-touring cross-country had some degree of mass appeal and social acceptance.

I toured Europe from late August to nearly October, and one of the most astonishing sights to me came when passing the local high schools when the final bell rang. Students fled the buildings as at home, but they did so on bicycles, rather than in cars. Girlfriends rode on the racks of their boyfriends and sometimes the opposite. Practically everyone rode, and in stylish street clothes. Here, cycle-dependent students are social pariahs. Having read so much about cycling in The Netherlands, it was still a shock to see it so fully realized in practice. In the States' car-centric society, getting a car at 16 or so is a rite of passage that seems nearly universal, and it is related to status. There is a perception you are what you drive, and I believe that extends on down the transport food chain and does so in spades in a society that (still and increasingly, though there are signs of backlash in some manifestations of the Occupy movement) values conspicuous consumption and public displays of wealth. Bigger equates with Better, and More is preferred to Less. By this reasoning, 10-speeds (or eleven!) are better than 9-, 8-, or 7-sp drivetrains. Is the USD$18,000 Specialized's S-Works/McLaren Venge really "better" than a USD$5,000 Trek Madone? They are certainly out there (see: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/10000-bikes-whats-the-point-32350 for an interesting treatise on the real value of a halo bike) and may well better suit an individual's needs or preferences than another sort of bike, but universally better? We get back to horses for courses, methinks, and choice rather than social prescription. I run more steerer spacers than anyone locally, so nyah-nyah. Unfortunately, an overlooked category. I purchased Sherpa over domestic and locally-produced brands because it best met my needs, not to display the name; no one here seems to know it (yes, a Good Thing in all).

At the top of the food chain here are automobiles and SUVs; that's where it's at, and within that world there is vast social stratification. A late-'80s Honda Civic just does not have the same cache' as a current model, and orbits a different planet in a remote universe from a prestige Japanese or European marque such as Lexus or BMW. I have heard water-cooler conversation where people of either sex used the vehicle driven as an indicator of social standing, wealth, and -- yes -- desirability. The perception extends to non-motorized transport -- if one isn't driving, then something is wrong unless you are "training" for something. The perception is one takes public transport, cycles, or walks -- except for Sport -- only if a) you've lost your license, b) are financially insecure, or c) are homeless and without possessions as the result of some character flaw or financial reversal (the two are sometimes equated). I don't think it is an issue of class standing alone so much as it is status and perhaps using that as a proxy for social standing and position. As stated in the article linked to above,
Quote
...many buyers don't make their bicycle purchases based on how well it suits their abilities. Truth be told, we often buy based on what we want to be and the image we want to project.
And maybe that's okay. It surely helps the economy, and advances the technology through real-world testing and eventually makes the advances seen in halo bikes available to the mass-market consumer. True, yes, but that is different from making it a means for social approbation, condemnation or judgement.

Within the local cycling world, many of the local bike shop sales are to people who want to be seen "profiling" on a nice ride, kitted out in full faux-team gear. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems a little less authentic to me than simply going out for a ride of whatever distance just because you want to. People here don't ride so much as they "train" -- even if they are not shooting for participation in an organized event. The full kit seems to be a justification for leaving one's car, rather than in service to the pursuit. The wife of an acquaintance recently opined she might get into cycling "because the clothes are cute" and her husband later echoed that statement in similar words, saying "I'd ride if I could look like I meant business". Female friends with gym memberships tell me status stratification has hit their spinning classes as well, with people spending enormous sums to parade the latest cycling fashions, upgrading seasonally rather than as needs be.

An interesting world, and worlds apart!

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 07:33:47 pm by Danneaux »

stormdog

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 07:12:02 pm »
Hi,

A really interesting thread. I always find people are generally very friendly when I am cycling and particularly on the Thorn, it is probably because I tend to dress down when out on the bike, or can't be bothered to dress up. My missus is always trying to encourage me to buy something a little smarter, and suggests I look like Compo from Last of the Summer Wine, for anyone who remembers the series My attire normally consists of an old bush hat with string under the chin, tee shirt, and a pair of baggy trousers with tie cords round the ankles. I supplement this with my old mountain jacket, and a long sleeve thermal base layer in the type of weather we have experienced lately. If I had met the people Dan met they would probably looked even further down their nose.

I do notice that some other cyclists do ignore me, perhaps because they do not think I am a proper cyclist (whatever that may be in their eyes), but people generally seem happier to chat in this attire than when I meet strangers in other circumstances.

I have had some comments about "what a lovely old bike you have got there, bet it is quiet old but you have certainly looked after it, and only a single speed as well, bet its hard on the hills!!!!!). I also find people appear surprised that me my attire and the "old bike" are so far away from home when touring for a few days.

I go out on my Thorn Raven to relax and not rush along but enjoy what is around me, and what I wear makes me feel comfortable. Each to his own, but the people you met Dan sound ignorant and probably have the same attitude to life in generally.

kind regards to all

John

Relayer

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 10:59:21 am »
Sorry to harp on about my own backyard, but breaking news - Edinburgh sets the pace ...

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3316568.ece


P.S.  Here's hoping this sort of thing inspires authorities elsewhere.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:48:31 pm by Relayer »

Fred A-M

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 02:41:41 pm »
Dan, I'd agree with John - these people are almost certainly not the kind of the people you'd want to socialise with in any context, least of all be stuck with them on a cycle venture.

Very very occasionally, one or two stumble onto the Thorn forum with their laughably misinformed prejudices and sometimes offensive attitudes to cycle-touring - you can usually spot them a mile off - the results can be "entertaining" depending on which way you look at things!  
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 03:13:26 pm by Fred A-M »
 

jags

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 04:03:14 pm »
agree there fred just hope a certain gut doesn't make his way on here :'(

Fred A-M

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 04:44:36 pm »
Ironically Jags, the guy in question ultimately acknowledged that he only rode the RST subsequently once when drunk, and then only to conclude what everyone was telling him in the first place, that the gearing wasn't right for his needs on the RST loaned to him -  It seemed v clear to me from the word go that he had come on the forum to diss the RST and insult cycle-tourists in general, because he plainly wasn't interested (or capable?) of having a rational discussion about the RST or of accepting it was a touring and not a racing machine.....and to think I put up with all that grief from a fellow member who castigated me for giving him short shrift!   Anyway, you know me Jags, never shy of having a good-old fashioned argument....quite enjoyed it at the time and felt vindicated given the above ;D!  Personally, I find it difficult not be contemptuous of the carbon-lycra brigade as described by Dan, but as long as they don't enforce their prejudices on the forum, happy to leave them to their ignorance! :-)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 04:48:11 pm by Fred A-M »
 

jags

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 06:59:39 pm »
ah well its all history now Fred as the man said there's always one ::)
anyway besides all that your keeping fairly quiet have you any tours planned for the summer. ;)

Fred A-M

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 08:02:41 pm »
Indeed, tis all water under the bridge Jags -I was just pleased to have an on-topic opportunity to make a dispassionate reference to that comical episode (thanks Dan)- in short if people rebuff sincere attempts to address their misperceptions through sarcasm or disdain (the dynamic of this topic ref people who don't appreciate cycle-touring), it's only fair in my eyes to treat them with equal contempt, not everyone's approach I appreciate, but that said, the subsequent attempt to paint me by said forum member as the enemy within was laughable.

Moving swiftly on, I've no firm plans as yet for a gentle re-introduction into cycle-touring - the year holds many uncertainties unfortunately, but I'll certain aim to do some w/end sorties come spring!

 
 

Danneaux

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 03:06:47 am »
Thanks, all, for your kind words of support and encouragement! Relayer, you can rightly be proud of Edinburgh's efforts and recognition for being a bicycle-friendly city. I so appreciate the link you posted.

In truth, I am also fortunate; here in Eugene, we are blessed with an entire system of bike-specific, off-street trails and paths, and there is access to one just a block or so away at the end of my street. There is also a network of on-street paths, and we are beginning to see the introduction of "bike box" lane markings at intersections to aid the safety and flow of bicycle traffic, even over car traffic. In terms of infrastructure, we are really lucky compared to many other, larger communities here in the States, and the local and state governments have made a sizable investment in bicycling past, present, and future. We now even have a local bike shop devoted to the needs of commuters.

Still, having seen how well bicycles have been accepted and integrated into the traffic infrastructure and societal attitudes elsewhere (the UK and Europe come to mind), I wish it was something we could achieve here to the same degree. Alas, I am not sure it is possible to the same degree due to larger cultural differences, geography, and existing development, but it is surely something to aspire to -- and very much admire, as I do. I do think people here in the States may have more of a need to justify cycling as a sport, where elsewhere it just happens as a matter of course. In my locale, one no longer see kids riding their bikes to school as when I was growing up. There are parental concerns about child safety (traffic, theft, molestation), but the kids also have after-school commitments (band, sports, clubs) that require travel beyond school so the parents take them or they ride the bus instead of cycling. The older kids drive themselves.

It is a bit discouraging to still find a racer/tourist split here over the years, but that hasn't dimmed my enthusiasm. It is not the bike one rides or the clothing one wears or the money spent; instead it is about finding what works for you and being happy out on the bike. If I go out with a good attitude, maybe I can kindle a little interest in taking the odd adventure on a different kind of bicycle. I was able to do that as a cycle-touring instructor and tour leader, but the audience was receptive.

This is a good time and place for me to express my gratitude to the members on this Forum. I remember the trolls and flame-wars of Usenet's RBT and such in years gone by and how quickly civilized discussion could devolve into something far less. The users and moderator (thanks, Stutho) make this forum a remarkable place, with a level of decorum and tolerance, civility and helpfulness absent in other venues. This is the kind of mutually supportive and enthusiastic cycling community I have long sought, and I am pleased to have found. Though the interaction is virtual and limited to this forum, it is an outlet for the like-minded who aspire to higher expressions of enthusiasm. Already passionately enthused about cycling and touring, I have learned and grown from interacting with forum members and you have my respect and admiration. I followed the list for a very long time as a guest and silently learned the tone of the list and the players, though many changed over time. When I moved closer to ordering my own Thorn -- and got it -- I came to think I could contribute in some meaningful ways instead of just consuming the wonderful resources of the list. Frankly, it means a lot to give back and I appreciate your warm welcome. Thank you again.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 08:36:22 am by Danneaux »

Fred A-M

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 09:35:51 pm »
Hi Dan

I think you've stunned everyone into silence with your combination of eloquence, enthusiasm, warmth and diplomacy!

To me it's very evident that you're an extremely generous and conscientious individual.  It's been great to be able to absorb just a fraction of the wealth of experience and knowledge that you've imparted on the forum and I'll have no qualms in contacting you for any advice ref cycle-touring, as I know it's likely to be highly objective.   

Welcome once again Dan - I don't log on so frequently these days but to me it's clear that the forum is a better place for your presence.

Cheers

Fred
 

slim

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Re: Dissed me, they did! Me *and* my Thorn!
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 01:23:15 am »

+1

Well said Fred.

Chris