eXp is here!

[rdbdickson]

Maybe he IS Lance A....

[James]

Or the camera could have broken

[LowFlyingHawk]

I suppose we should express some concern.  Broken camera or not, he hasn't posted a word let alone a picture.[?]

[George]

I've emailed him without a response -- Cephas, have you heard from him?

[Istanbul_Tea]

Thanks for all the posts concerning my whereabouts & welfare... and even a few of you that have emailed me privately as well.

I'm here and doing fine... mostly.

Hmmm, where to begin?

Ok, I received the packages from Peter's shop last week as I posted about.  My wife and me set everything up and while doing so I noticed a few things...

1.  The matte powdercoat was certainly a "different" look than most cycles would ever have BUT I actually liked it.  Especially once the cycle had so much beautiful sparkling chrome from Shimano components, Phil hubs, etc... it looked damn nice in fact!!

2.  It had no seatpost as Peter thought it took a 26.8 as he couldn't fit a 27 in it.  After realizing it would be a tight fit and confirming that with Robin, Peter overnighted me a 27.  It WAS extremely tight fitting but did work... in hindsight, I don't think the seat tube was reamed before SJS shipped it to Peter.  No biggie, but it did take a few days extra before I had the eXp set up for a test spin.

3.  While doing & waiting for all this to happen I was having an increasing concern that the frame looked smallish but quelled that fear by just being patient and holding off all judgment until I had the seatpost.

4.  After getting the post and attaching my saddle I went for the first of appx. 10 rides on it.  What follows are my impressions as I wrote them down after each ride.

Directly from my journal...

a.  Frame feels small.  Way more seatpost showing than I'm used to.

b.  Handles well on cornering but is not as comfy yet as I was wishing for.

c.  Frame still feels small and with all the spacers and a steerer extender added plus higher saddle STILL cannot get upright enough without having my knees nearly hit the handlebars and have hand numbness.  Like the wheelbase very much... Amy says I look like I'm struggling on the bike versus my other rides.  She also says the frame looks small for me... it fits her better than me and she almost 6 inches shorter.  

d.  Love the tires Peter installed, Avocet City Slicks 26x1.9 w/no tread & huge gum walls.  They look great, ride great and am trying them with lower and lower PSI.  Trying a different saddle today.  Frame is beautiful and really like the basic look of it... very straight ahead like no one will bother me or the cycle.

e.  Just in from another long one... for the first time ever riding my back hurts down low.  Also, my knees feel tight.  Must be the all the new height adjustments and the saddle.  Brooks Conquest isn't for me... my arse is screaming.  Back to my trusty B67.  Frame is too small, I know it and I'm trying to ignore it and make it fit me.  Also, the BB height is too high for my tastes... it's fatiquing me on rides.  Handles bump great... tires at 28 PSI, Phil hubs are Hella Good!... they click like no ones business though!!  Peter says it softens over time.

f.  Had a framebuilder friend come by today and watch me ride... within about 10 feet he yelled over to me that the frame is too small.  ****!  Confirms what I don't want confirmed.  After riding a bit he asked me to bring out my Atlantis... he watched me ride that for a bit and immediately noticed that I looked more comfy (true), and relaxed (true) so he did some comparison measuring.
He found that not only would I need a size larger in the eXp but what was really bugging me was the BB drop.  Sadly I had to agree.  Tomorrow I'll ride it again and have to make a decision.

final ride day.  B.67 feels great but the height of it w/handlebars is bugging me.  Knees hurt again...

So after some serious soul searching and thinking through the fact that I'll be on this cycle for a lot of years of touring I made the choice to return it back to SJS.  Could exchange it for a larger one but I'd still have the BB issue with height.

That's the downside.

The upside is this...

I know that I've tried and REALLY given it a fair shot for my specific needs.  In addition, I'm going to have a frameset built for me.  It just makes sense and will get me 100% onto what I need and want.

Robin & Co. are probably completely & utterly sick of me and in a way I don't blame them.  However, this ride is important to me and as such I guess I require custom.

Nothing but thumbs up for SJS and their willingness to please.

All that said, I guess I shouldn't return here as I'm not riding a Thorn and hey, that's the point of these forums after all.

Cheers to all my forum friends!!

[hoogie]

why is BB height an issue? just curious ...

[LowFlyingHawk]

Is actually owning a Thorn a pre-requisite to post here[?]

I better pull my finger out and order that Raven [:p], lest I be banished[].

[Robin Thorn]

So, my freind is returning his frameset, that's fine, we are very easy to get on with, i'd just like to point out 2 things for anyone else reading this thread:
1) If I.T. has the bodily dimensions he told ME, particularly standover height, then if he buys a bigger frame, there will be no more children for him if he needs to stand over his bike in a hurry!
2) We sell 1000's of bikes, the b/b heights are suitable for the relevant tasks, i've NEVER had anyone complain about a bottom bracket height!! (up till now of course)  (... come on, somebody remind me about the XYZ model i sold in 1996!)
- the higher the bracket, the higher the saddle, the higher the centre of mass, the worse the bike will handle, especially @ speed, the harder it is to get on and off.
If it wasn't for cornering and riding on uneven ground there would be no benifit from not having the cranks JUST missing the ground!
Oh, and one more thing, if I.T.'s got a freind that builds bike frames WHY did he kick him in the teeth and order a bike frame from me?

[Cephas]

What happens now? Does the frame go back to SJS or does it stay here the States (Harris Cyclery?) for possible re-sale? eBay?

What is the size? And if it would fit me, how do I convince my wife that I need to upgrade from my two year old Nomad? Which, btw, has proven to be the most comfortable and versatile bike I have ever owned.

John Moore
Manchester, New Hampshire, USA

[LowFlyingHawk]

Hey, Robin.... you seem to have forgotten about the XYZ in 1996.[]

On a serious note, though, did I.T. actually tell anyone what the issue with the bottom bracket was[?]

[russellm]

I've been lurking on this list for a while now, but have some concerns with how this thread might be used, so a quick comment ....

Since I frequently use the internet to research purchase decisions, it bothers me that, in conjunction with other I.T. posts, it will be read as a negative review of the eXp in particular and of Thorn bicycles in general. I would hate someone to forgo consideration of options from Thorn on the basis of I.T's posts.

Actually, I.T's critique of the eXp is vastly premature. None of his "test rides" mention how the bicycle has performed loaded with real loads on real roads. Frankly, I find Mark and Juliette at http://www.mark-ju.net/ much more useful since they are using the eXp and the Nomad for the purpose for which they have been designed i.e. to carry huge loads with minimal fuss over long distances.

Secondly, last year I rode 960kms carrying a 24kg + load on a bicycle (not Thorn) that was susceptible to wheel shimmy. Believe me! It's better to find out that your bicycle is under designed for your intended purpose before you leave rather than after.

Thirdly, I've looked closely at the eXp frame sizes. There are so many of them that a prudent, well researched purchaser should easily find a frame to fit.

Now, back to lurking!

Best wishes, Russell

[Istanbul_Tea]

A couple additional remarks and that's it from me...

1.  Robin and me have corresponded off-forum and now have a better understanding of one anothers position on this.  I would assume he would echo me by saying that neither he nor I have any negative feelings toward one another and that he more clearly understands what I was saying in my post describing my experiences with the eXp.

2.  Cephas-John... no, it's been sent back to the UK.  Harris had no involvement in the purchase so my thinking was that they should have no interest in the return.  Sorry.

3.  Russell-The Oz Lurker.  Prudence?  Researched?  Damn, and to think I've been talking to Robin for nearly a year, spoken to Mark & Ju countless times, etc... I need to work on prudence & research then, eh?

Additionally... where in ANY of my 348 other posts do I cast anything other than PURE positivity on the Thorn name in general and the eXp model specifically?

With my posts here, at C+, at Bike Forums, at Crazy Guy, at RoadbikeReview.com and on various Mailing Lists I'm the freaking Poster Boy for Thorn and the eXp when everyone else is singing the praises of the standard pap like Trek 520's, C-Dale T-2000's, Robert's, Dawes, yada, yada, yada.

I should be on payroll for Thorn.  I'm sure if you google me under Istanbul Tea and Thorn and/or eXp you'll be wishing you hadn't said half of what you've said.

4.  Hoogie & others-  Yes, I've mentioned what EXACTLY MY issue was with the BB.  For the umpteenth time... it is too high FOR ME.  

Last...

Precisely how does one come to been seen "trashing", "pi$$ing on" or being "negative" about anything or anyone when they OPENLY admit that it was THEMSELVES that didn't work well with a given design and not that design itself?

If I buy Nike shoes and they are too narrow for my feet and I tell someone that... I am NOT saying that "XYZ" model of Nike is crap or even that Nike as a brand are crap...

I am stating that MY feet are too wide for THAT model of THEIR shoes.

The eXp has too high a BB for ME.

The eXp I selected was a size too small for ME... AGAIN, I selected it.

Peace

[luceberg]

A couple of comments:-

I.T.,when you go on your round the world tour, you WILL encounter off tarmac conditions where a higher B.B.is essential to avoid grounding the pedals. A 1/2" or so higher is not THAT big a deal in terms of raising your centre of gravity. I assume you are a long leggy person, so already have a high one and are wary of raising it further.

My other comment is about inside leg measurement. When I took measurements for my Audax, the figure I gave Robin was 5/8" too low. I didn't realise this for quite some time and the bike was unconfortable at first, put right now with a higher, shorter stem.Apart from my own stupidity, probably, the instructions for self measurement on the Thorn site are a bit ambiguous. "Raise the coffee table book until it feels uncomfortable" is nice and polite, but what does uncomfortable mean? Just squeasing you gonads slightly? I prefer Richard Ballantine's "Crotch bone to floor without shoes". You do need to hit the crotch bone with that book.

Cheers   Love and Peace

[LowFlyingHawk]

That may work for women, but one has to question the wisdom of a man ignoring the family jewels when calculating standover height.

[luceberg]

quote: That may work for women, but one has to question the wisdom of a man ignoring the family jewels when calculating standover height.

I certainly don't advocate ignoring standover height, but it's a separate issue from saddle height. For that, the measurement you need is crotch bone to floor minus shoes, regardless of sex.