Author Topic: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour  (Read 6558 times)

cyclingispure

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A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« on: November 06, 2007, 12:17:56 am »
Hi All,
I took delivery of my new Thorn Raven Tour last Thursday after two years of wondering whether to take the hub gear plunge. My excitement was immense. Excitement increased by a 4 week wait for delivery!!!!! I haven't felt this much like a kid waiting for Christmas since.........I was a kid waiting for Christmas.

I ride a round trip of 23 miles commute to work and have ridden derailleur bikes, mainly Dawes tourers for 20 years. My average yearly mileage around 6000 miles. My last bike was/is a Specialized Crossroads 50/40/30 chainrings with 9 speed 23 - 13 cassette. I loved the close ratios!!!!!!!! This bike was fast, carried a load well and fitted my body like a glove (after many a session fine tuning position and components). The only drag was general maintenance and the 6 monthly cost of new cassette and chain. Being a canny (but stupid Scot) I dragged the change of components to the point where either the chainskip drove me to distraction or on a hillclimb when the worn slack slappy chain would jump ship, i'd haul the bike in the air, keel sideward and hit the road. Haven't we all done this at some time?? So, what are my impressions after my first commute to work.......the first ride in anger as it were.

What a bike!!!!!!!!!! Stunning, the gears are liquid velvet, the comfort fabulous, the frame....fantastically responsive for a touring bike (reminder, I have the Thorn Raven, not the Sport Tour) and stability that inspires confidence. I carry two panniers with laptop and bag, a thick A4 diary, tools, change of clothes, sometimes a Canon G5 digital camera and a lead acid battery that powers my 10 watt halogen front light so am used to riding heavy. Todays ride is the most assured I've felt in years. I have nothing but praise on my first day for this beautiful machine. However, all is not rosy in the garden. A ride that normally takes me 42 - 45mins depending on wind took the the fuller part of 48 mins (both ways) today. I feel to gain the most from the Raven Tour, I am going to have to change my riding style. I felt like I was riding slightly too low a gear at a cadence higher than is normal for me. When I changed up a gear, riding up to the cadence I was using was not instinctive. I missed my close ratios. This I feel was the reason for the increased time. My Raven Tour has a 44/16 combination and I felt the difference the most between gears 10 & 11. Also easing the pressure on the pedals during a particularly steep climb to change gear is a skill that will require some practise.

So, on my first day in the saddle do I have any regrets........yes.......when are Rolhoff going to annihilate the Shimano/Campag opposition and design a closer ratio hub????!!!!! Apart from that I am utterly thrilled with my new bike. I knew I was compromising on the ratios when I made the order but when I consider the 35 years I have owned derailleur equipped bikes I realise I have been living with compromise those 35 years, a compromise of hours and hours of maintenance, hundreds  of pounds in chains, cassettes, chainrings and new derailleurs, the infuriating sound of a gear change that refuses on a heavy climb.......the list goes on!!

I am thrilled with my purchase. The design, quality of build, the thought thats gone in to every detail...I love the cable guides and the immense pleasure I get from knowing the intricacy of whats going on inside the hub make riding the Thorn worth every penny of hard earned cash. I hope to bring an update in the coming weeks.......I know that time will drop!!!!! I welcome your comments on riding styles.

Jim
 

stutho

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2007, 09:26:54 am »
Cyclingispure

Congratulation and it only get better! The first time you clean your bike you will have a smile on you face - it sooo much easier to look after!

Re Gearing:
The large step in ratios is an issue for some with the Rohloff. In an ideal world I would love to see the top 4 steps closer together. Of course the payback is that you now have a gear range of 525% (19.4-102.1in) as opposed 294% (35.1-103.7in) on the crossroads.  Those lower gears will allow you to stay in the saddle much longer when climbing which is more efficient especially on long climbs. (N.B. more efficient but not necessarily faster.)  

I have a very hilly rural commute.  30min in, 43min home (I live on a hill and work at sea level). When I switched to my Raven I found that my time to work increased by about 1min but that my home run came down to 38min.  I have now being ridding my Raven (Sport Tour) for nearly 2 years I recently sold my derailer bike, I just wasn't using it anymore.  I used the money to buy a Raven Tour for the Wife!  I occasionally hanker after a Bianchi but then the next day it raining and is blowing a gale directly in my face and I know I am on the best possible bike for the task of getting me home safely.

cyclingispure

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2007, 07:21:55 pm »
Stutho

Thanks for the encouraging words. I smiled at your "clean your bike" comment, for the first time in months it rained on my journey home!!!! I ride my new bike on its first proper outing and it rains!!!!!!!!! Frustrating. Times today were 46 min in and 44min 42 secs home so a considerable difference on yesterday. Getting used to the steed as it were. I read a comment on one of Andy's articles that he used his gears more than ever with the Rohlhoff, I'd say on my short experience I am the opposite. Using the derailleur (flat bar with Deore shifters) I'd change gear on the more undulating sections of my commute literally hundreds of times. I never found it an issue "one up cassette one down chainring" as it was utterly second nature and I used the ratios so much to maintain cadence. Currently I'd say I change gears probably half as much. This I believe will change as I get used to the Rolhoff.

Beautiful day today, global warming is benefitting with a gorgeous and mild late Oct/early Nov............is it a price worth paying, of course not, but I'll enjoy it knowing we cyclists are doing our bit in not dumping more carbon into the atmosphere!
 

Fred A-M

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2007, 10:55:22 pm »
I'll 2nd Stuart's observations ref efficiency: as the ease & reliability of the Rohloff becomes an intuitive part of your gear-changing routines, you'll really notice the difference on hills and long journeys.
 

jonathan

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 07:19:32 am »
Gday you blokes,

I am also a Rohloff virgin having about 480km on my hub. I bought an RT frame from SJS and built the bike up myself. A mate who worked in a bike shop got the hubs for us (the trouble and strife has one on her bike too). I really like the frame. It seems much more responsive and "alive" than the Surly LHT frame that I had (and still have abandoned in a corner :(

I had hassles with my hub from new, with gears not engaging, missed shifts, getting stuck in 14 when changing to 7 even when not pedaling, very notchy shifts etc. It was unpleasant to say the least. I sent the wheel to Rohloff Australia who poked and prodded and sent it back and it is now better, still notchy and lumpy but no engagement problems touch wood. Every one else seems to have nice light shifts so I hope mine gets better with some work.

I am looking forward to getting some more kms under the wheels. The RT is very comfy so far. I am still fiddling and tweaking the setup but already I have ridden it further than I did the surly with very little discomfort. I suspect it might even be a little faster despite smaller wheels and fatter tyres.

There is really only one thing I dislike about the frame although I understand why the situation exists. The hassle for me is the cable routing. the RT is designed for the internal shifter but to my mind that looks like a real compromise. The silly little cables and bayonets that seem to seize. I chose to go with the EX clickbox but that does make it hard to run the cables. It seems the best route for the EX is down the DT and along the chainstay, but I cant do that with the RT so I have had to resort to zipties on the seat stay. It looks OK but I do not think it is optimum and cable runs seem quite important to Rohloff operation. I wish SJS had two options with the RT but I understand the stock issues that would raise. I would post a picture for comment if I could figure out how to make it work.

The other cable issue is the rear brake. Being able to swap the noodle over would be great but I got XT not Avid brakes.

I reckon me and this Thorn are going to get along just fine.
 

jonathan

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 07:35:35 am »
Just some more on this topic,

I bought the Thorn because having had this shiney hub drop in my lap unexpectedly I had to make some decisons. I was going to install it on my Surly LHTthat I had, which I was very happy with. It was reasonably fast, comfy and looked pretty cool too.

It was Andy's living with article that started me thinking and although it was a very hard decision I am glad I did switch.

The RT, despite heavier tubing (its the same 4130 alloy), seems more responsive. There is less shock through the handlebars, and I wonder how much this has to do with either the 531 forkblades or the double crown. The Surly has 4130 blades. On the corrugated dirt roads around here believe me I know about handlebar shock.

I never liked the 700c wheels on the Surly and can not see any advantage to the bigger wheels.

The Surly has a longer head tube which means fewer spacers. This is my other gripe about the Thorn. I (and most others it seems) have about a brazillion spacers below the stem which does not look to flash. I live with it cos I dont want my bars near the front spindle but it would be nice to reduce the number of spacers.

Its possible that the Surly has slightly tougher paint, thats probably subjective. Actually thinking about it its quite likely that they are made in the same factory despite the marketing spiel on the SJS/Thorn brochures.

Despite the different fame geometry both bikes are pretty similar but on my short association so far the RT is the better bike. My big problem now is what do I do with two bikes that are the same. I only want to ride one. Anyone know anyone who wants a secondhand Surly?
 

stutho

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 01:40:27 pm »
Hi jonathan,
There are a lot if issues in you 2 mails!    

Problems with the hub
Do you know the manufacture date (or serial No) of your hub.  Older hubs seam to take a lot longer to 'bed in' than the more recently manufactured hubs. Cabling to the hub can also make a big difference. On both the Ravens that I have built, and maintain, I now use quality brake cable outer with Teflon coated gear cable inner.  I originaly used gear cable outer, for over a year, which, while it worked OK, it did give a 'notch' feel to the gearing.  If you own the TS version of the hub (do Rohloff do a TX EX version?) be especially careful not to over tighten the wheel nuts - It makes a really big difference to the feel of the gearing as does over tightening the slack in the gear cable.  I don't own an EX box so some of the info above may be wrong.

EX verses internal versions of the hub
There are pluses and minuses with each system.  The biggest pluses for the internal hub are that its lighter, shifts sweeter (supposedly) and cost less.  The biggest pluses for the EX version is that it that the cable run is sealed all the way from the shifter and you never have to replace an internal cable.  As my granddaddy used to say you pay your money and your make your choice.

Cable Routing
I think you are correct, for the EX box the best possible routing is along the Down tube and chain stay a.k.a Raven Nomad and Raven Sterling.  Being that you've got a Raven Tour I would recommend getting a pair of Rohloff cable clips (#5200) or equivalent for the seat stay and make the final cable bend into the EX box a gentle curve.  
The rear Brake cable issue is a problem coursed by both the Rohloff hub and most rear brakes requiring the cables to run on the left of the bike.  In reality there isn't much of an issue - just cross the brake cable over to the left in front of the seat tube. This is what I did on my wife's bike without any problems at all.  On my bike I went for Avid Ultimates ;-)

Posting Pictures
First you need to open an account with Photo Bucket (its free) then upload your photos to there.  Next (again in photo bucket) click on the IMG tag below photo you want to post (it will automatically copy the link). Finally in your next post press CTRL V to paste the IMG link to photo bucket.  You can preview you mail to check the link has worked.

Spacers
You are right this issue comes up perennially.  Personally I don't find them offensive in the slightest but I admit others do. I like the extra adjustment that they offer.

I feel very attached to both the Ravens that I have built up – I am sure you feel the same.  I hope you can get the gearing sorted to you satisfaction and get on with enjoying you handwork.  

Best regards,
Stuart
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 01:43:56 pm by stutho »

lewis noble

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 10:09:17 pm »
Some very interesting comments here.  I also have found that the RT is actually faster than it feels; I have surprised many people who have looked at the bike and said something like 'what a tank!', and then are surprised when I (at 61 and only recently returned to cycling after 35 + years) either keep up with or leave them behind.  On hills, I often find myself wishing that the bike was lighter, perhaps I should have gone for the RST . . . but in reality weight is only one of many issues and posture, comfort, etc and how you feel about things make a big difference.  

Best of luck with the bike - I am sure you will enjoy it.

Lewis
 

cyclingispure

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2007, 10:42:05 pm »
Now you see Jonathan...........I dispute your comments re cable routing. Now my bike came as a new build and has been perfect from coming out of the box. I find the whole cable routing from handlebar to hub the very essence of economy and elegance. Both my friend Paul and I bought a RT at the same time after a day out to the SJS shop. Since they came out the boxes we have spent way to much time, more that is healthy just staring at the variously beautifully designed and thoughtout elements of the bike. One of these being cable routing. the way the cables are swept along through the cable guides down the top tube, three neatly tidy cables together, then out the back and efficiently ending to attend to their specific tasks...............simple is beautiful.


I agree with your comments on the frame, it is quite on of the most comfortable and responsive I've ridden. How did Andy achieve responsive with those relaxed angles and long chainstays...........frame design is a dark art mastered by few!!!!!! In the Thorn Raven Tour you have a piece designed by an artist craftsman!!

Jim
 

Geoff Simpson

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2007, 12:44:54 am »
quote:
Originally posted by jonathan

Just some more on this topic,

I bought the Thorn because having had this shiney hub drop in my lap unexpectedly I had to make some decisons. I was going to install it on my Surly LHTthat I had, which I was very happy with. It was reasonably fast, comfy and looked pretty cool too.

It was Andy's living with article that started me thinking and although it was a very hard decision I am glad I did switch.

The RT, despite heavier tubing (its the same 4130 alloy), seems more responsive. There is less shock through the handlebars, and I wonder how much this has to do with either the 531 forkblades or the double crown. The Surly has 4130 blades. On the corrugated dirt roads around here believe me I know about handlebar shock.

I never liked the 700c wheels on the Surly and can not see any advantage to the bigger wheels.

The Surly has a longer head tube which means fewer spacers. This is my other gripe about the Thorn. I (and most others it seems) have about a brazillion spacers below the stem which does not look to flash. I live with it cos I dont want my bars near the front spindle but it would be nice to reduce the number of spacers.

Its possible that the Surly has slightly tougher paint, thats probably subjective. Actually thinking about it its quite likely that they are made in the same factory despite the marketing spiel on the SJS/Thorn brochures.

Despite the different fame geometry both bikes are pretty similar but on my short association so far the RT is the better bike. My big problem now is what do I do with two bikes that are the same. I only want to ride one. Anyone know anyone who wants a secondhand Surly?

 

Geoff Simpson

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2007, 12:22:13 am »
quote:
Originally posted by jonathan

Gday you blokes,

I am also a Rohloff virgin having about 480km on my hub. I bought an RT frame from SJS and built the bike up myself. A mate who worked in a bike shop got the hubs for us (the trouble and strife has one on her bike too). I really like the frame. It seems much more responsive and "alive" than the Surly LHT frame that I had (and still have abandoned in a corner :(

I had hassles with my hub from new, with gears not engaging, missed shifts, getting stuck in 14 when changing to 7 even when not pedaling, very notchy shifts etc. It was unpleasant to say the least. I sent the wheel to Rohloff Australia who poked and prodded and sent it back and it is now better, still notchy and lumpy but no engagement problems touch wood. Every one else seems to have nice light shifts so I hope mine gets better with some work.

I am looking forward to getting some more kms under the wheels. The RT is very comfy so far. I am still fiddling and tweaking the setup but already I have ridden it further than I did the surly with very little discomfort. I suspect it might even be a little faster despite smaller wheels and fatter tyres.

There is really only one thing I dislike about the frame although I understand why the situation exists. The hassle for me is the cable routing. the RT is designed for the internal shifter but to my mind that looks like a real compromise. The silly little cables and bayonets that seem to seize. I chose to go with the EX clickbox but that does make it hard to run the cables. It seems the best route for the EX is down the DT and along the chainstay, but I cant do that with the RT so I have had to resort to zipties on the seat stay. It looks OK but I do not think it is optimum and cable runs seem quite important to Rohloff operation. I wish SJS had two options with the RT but I understand the stock issues that would raise. I would post a picture for comment if I could figure out how to make it work.

The other cable issue is the rear brake. Being able to swap the noodle over would be great but I got XT not Avid brakes.

I reckon me and this Thorn are going to get along just fine.

 

Geoff Simpson

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2007, 12:22:44 am »
quote:
Originally posted by jonathan

Gday you blokes,

I am also a Rohloff virgin having about 480km on my hub. I bought an RT frame from SJS and built the bike up myself. A mate who worked in a bike shop got the hubs for us (the trouble and strife has one on her bike too). I really like the frame. It seems much more responsive and "alive" than the Surly LHT frame that I had (and still have abandoned in a corner :(

I had hassles with my hub from new, with gears not engaging, missed shifts, getting stuck in 14 when changing to 7 even when not pedaling, very notchy shifts etc. It was unpleasant to say the least. I sent the wheel to Rohloff Australia who poked and prodded and sent it back and it is now better, still notchy and lumpy but no engagement problems touch wood. Every one else seems to have nice light shifts so I hope mine gets better with some work.

I am looking forward to getting some more kms under the wheels. The RT is very comfy so far. I am still fiddling and tweaking the setup but already I have ridden it further than I did the surly with very little discomfort. I suspect it might even be a little faster despite smaller wheels and fatter tyres.

There is really only one thing I dislike about the frame although I understand why the situation exists. The hassle for me is the cable routing. the RT is designed for the internal shifter but to my mind that looks like a real compromise. The silly little cables and bayonets that seem to seize. I chose to go with the EX clickbox but that does make it hard to run the cables. It seems the best route for the EX is down the DT and along the chainstay, but I cant do that with the RT so I have had to resort to zipties on the seat stay. It looks OK but I do not think it is optimum and cable runs seem quite important to Rohloff operation. I wish SJS had two options with the RT but I understand the stock issues that would raise. I would post a picture for comment if I could figure out how to make it work.

The other cable issue is the rear brake. Being able to swap the noodle over would be great but I got XT not Avid brakes.

I reckon me and this Thorn are going to get along just fine.

 

Geoff Simpson

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2007, 12:37:50 am »
Jonathan,
Do you still have the Surly, if so what are the frame dimensions, particularly:
1. Standover height, and
2. Top Bar length.
Regards,
Geoff (in Brisbane)
geoff.simpson@managementeffect.com
 

jonathan

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2007, 02:09:19 am »
Hi Geoff,

I have replied off list but yes I still have the poor thing abandoned in the corner of the shed:(
 

Geoff Simpson

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Re: A Rohlhoff virgin's impression of the Raven Tour
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2007, 03:21:38 am »
Jonathan, could you help me understand 'Poor Thing', how old is it, is it scratched / rusty and what is the stand over height of the top bar?  What colour etc?
Thanks, Geoff
geoff.simpson@managementeffect.com