Author Topic: Chainglider feedback  (Read 13112 times)

John Saxby

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2022, 02:54:07 pm »
It all gets so complicated, eh?

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John Saxby had a more successful carve-your-own-Chainglider session, which also left a part of the chainring uncovered but more tidily than Frank’s Hebie-inspired mismatch.

In the next few days, I'm going to dress up my spiffy new Mercury (36 x 17 ring/sprocket) with my equally new but less spiffy 38T 'glider.  I expect to do some surgery at the back, where the 'glider kisses the seatstay, and will wait to see how ugly is the mismatch at the front.  Then, I'll decide whether to adjust my expectations or resort to the knife once more.

Stand by for breaking news, but don't hold your breath or postpone any rides  ;)

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2022, 04:27:53 pm »
Good to hear about your plans.
I run 38/17 on my Raven Tour with a 'glider.

I can't imagine being without it after so many years.

Best

Matt
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JohnR

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2022, 05:52:19 pm »
Super update, John, very useful, especially your estimate of 80 per cent of the benefit for half the chain coverage.
It's a guesstimate and might be on the low side. The main unknown is how much muck gets carried round on the rear tyre and dropped onto the lower part of the chain just after it leaves the protection around the chainring. There's also some splatter in the sprocket area but this tends to be quite small as demonstrated by the low rate of muck build-up on the Rohloff hub.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2022, 08:51:18 pm »
Many thanks again to all the folks who helped me out with my squeak.

As mentioned - it turned out to be the front part of the Chainglider.

New part now fitted and quiet as a church mouse now.

I checked my stats:
Original part fitted October 2015.
24,868 miles / 40,000+ Km covered over 8 years 9 months.

The small clips started to fail and I ran it with tape holding things together for a month or so. Eventually the whole thing came apart and wrapped itself around the off side crank.

I think it's been good value and I wouldn't cycle without one now. But of course respect other folks opinions.

The rear part is quite robust and did not require replacement.

Best

Matt the Church Mouse.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

Andre Jute

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2022, 01:22:24 am »
Many thanks again to all the folks who helped me out with my squeak.

As mentioned - it turned out to be the front part of the Chainglider.

New part now fitted and quiet as a church mouse now.

I checked my stats:
Original part fitted October 2015.
24,868 miles / 40,000+ Km covered over 8 years 9 months.

The small clips started to fail and I ran it with tape holding things together for a month or so. Eventually the whole thing came apart and wrapped itself around the off side crank.

I think it's been good value and I wouldn't cycle without one now. But of course respect other folks opinions.

The rear part is quite robust and did not require replacement.

Best

Matt the Church Mouse.

Thanks, Matt.

That gives us a lifespan for a Chainglider of 25,000m/40,000km to shoot at.

For comparison, my first bike electrification scheme cost under Euro 500 and was seen by me in advance as a learning experience with an unknown but definite finite expiry date. I was so much satisfied that I'd made a good investment that, when the installation had to be replaced at 3500m, I bought a stronger motor of the same brand.

It's for Matt to say whether his Chainglider had a hard life, but from his reports of his tours, it clearly hasn't been mollycoddled, so some of us may be able to get more miles out of a Chainglider.

Personally, I'd be perfectly satisfied if I got Matt's 25K miles out of such a radical c50 Euro component bought without knowing precisely how it works. We still don't know how it works, hence:

I hope you haven't thrown your original, worn-out Chainglider away yet, Matt, because a question does arise: Is there any sign, except for the failure of the passive slot-and-tongue fixing scheme, that any part of the Chainglider has been worn by contact with the chain or the gears?

Thanks again, Matt.

PH

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2022, 07:38:06 am »
I think it's been good value and I wouldn't cycle without one now. But of course respect other folks opinions.
Glad you got it sorted and you replacing like with like is enough proof how well it suits you.  I think 25,000 miles out of any component is good going. I'm going to guess that the vast majority of bikes sold never do that in their lifetime.
I still can't imagine me ever using one! But have no opinion on others doing so. 

Danneaux

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2022, 10:08:17 am »
Just to note...

The Hebie No. 9386 product information guide available here...
https://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/pdf/chainglider/9386_Anhaengekarte_CG_2022_web.pdf
...states...

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• Lubricate the chain sufficiently.
• Keep the clipping surface free from lubrication.
• Not to use a chain with spring link
(max. width of the chain!).
• Note the specific chain tension.
• Please clean the CHAINGLIDER inside regularly.
• Capacity at least approx. 15.000 km

At one point in my past correspondence with their then-representative Ron Hout urging Hebie to produce a model for 36t chainrings, he linked to further information that said it was important to smear a very light coating of grease on the inside of the chain case in proximity to the chain run to prevent squeaks.

That view is supported by the untranslated German text at their Service FAQ ( https://www.hebie.de/en/service/faq/ )which -- after translation -- reads...
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Noise development on a very uneven road (cobblestones, etc.) - explanations and additional information!

The Chainglider offers the best protection for the drive chain with the slimmest look at the same time. The unique concept of "sliding" on the chain involves contact with it.

As a rule, drive chains are not additionally lubricated by the bicycle manufacturer after assembly beyond the initial lubrication by the chain manufacturer. Additional lubrication at the factory is often undesirable to avoid that too many drops of new bicycles soil the floor in the shop (drainage hole in the chain glider).

In the case of dry-mounted chain gliders without any additional lubrication, rattling noises can occur on very uneven surfaces. A relatively viscous lubrication in the chain glider dampens these noises excellently.

Hebie recommends bicycle manufacturers to apply a thin layer of grease during initial assembly or to introduce viscous chain fluid through the oil hole in the chain glider after assembly. A mix of tough (grease) and slightly thinner chain lubricants has also shown good results. [Emphasis Dan's] Sufficient chain care should take place at the latest during the first inspection, since the initial lubrication of the chain by the chain manufacturer mainly has preservation properties and is not designed for long running times.*

With this and the all-round protection of the chain glider, a significant increase in the service life of the drive is possible. Also because moderate "supply lubrication" is possible in the chain glider.

Maintenance intervals at which the inside of the Chainglider (or the chain as well) should be cleaned and supplied with new lubricant depend in particular on the type and amount of dirt.

In any case, the protection and thus the service life of the entire drive is higher with a correctly lubricated chain in connection with the Chainglider than with a completely open chain that is directly exposed to all environmental influences.

It might be that an interior cleaning and thin greasing of Matt's old Chainglider could return it to squeak-free service. It would be fun to see. :)

It is worth noting the English-language entry in their current Service FAQ available at the same link ( https://www.hebie.de/en/service/faq/ )...contradicts the German entry, saying...
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Which chain lubricant should I use for a Chainglider?

You do not need a specific lubricant for the Chainglider. Good results have been achieved with a dry film spray. Normal chain lubricants are also suitable. Take care that the lubricant is spread well and avoid or remove residues on the contact surfaces of the Chainglider. No more of the chain lubricant is used for a Chainglider than for a chain without a Chainglider.

Note: Chainglider assembly instructions, illustrations and cautions available here...
https://www.hebie.de/fileadmin/pdf/chainglider/9418_Chainglider_Anbauhinweise-2.0__3mm.pdf

Best, Dan.

*Of particular note from the English translation of the German at the Service FAQ above...
Quote
Sufficient chain care should take place at the latest during the first inspection, since the initial lubrication of the chain by the chain manufacturer mainly has preservation properties and is not designed for long running times.
contradicts Andre's experience running the chain on its original factory lube within the Chainglider for as long as possible.

For another take on this, see...
https://www.velonews.com/gear/tech-wearables/technical-faq-should-you-leave-the-factory-lube-on-a-new-chain/

For what it is worth, I have always dunked my freshly opened derailleur chains in my dash tank filled with mineral spirits, drained thoroughly, blown dry with compressed air, then relubed with aftermarket lubricant which I allow to penetrate for at least 24 hours before using the bike, at which point I wipe off any excess with a paper towel to prevent slinging. I reapply lubricant about every 500kms depending on conditions, more if it is particularly wet or dusty. I've had remarkably long chain life as a result on open derailleur drivetrains where the chains are more flexible/flex more. On my Fixie and Rohloff, I am unable to fit Chaingliders** and I've had much better luck/longevity leaving the factory lube in place than on my derailleur drives. I think the difference may be due to the straight chainline and relatively unflexed chains on the non-derailleur bikes and my occasional fitting of 1/8in track chains, which are pretty premium in terms of tolerances and can only be made to flex sideways a very small amount in comparison to derailleur chains.

**My Chainglider fitment problems on my Nomad are due to running a stainless steel Surly 36t chainring (x 17t sprocket) in 104mm BCD to fit my Shimano Deore crankset with external/outboard bearing bottom bracket. I prefer Surly stainless for its thinness and long service life, but Surly do not produce a chainring larger than 36t in this 104mm BCD, so unless I change my Surly chainring, present crankset and expensive Phil Wood bottom bracket, I am unable to fit a Chainglider. Hebie so far have not been willing to produce a 36t compatible Chainglider front assembly, citing Rohloff's former ratio restrictions that have since been updated to allow such gearing. This is all worth noting if you spec your new Thorn bike with Rohloff hub to run a sub-38t chainring on a 104mm BCD crankset and wish to later fit a Chainglider. I would instead recommend a 110mm BCD crankset (most likely designed to fit a square taper internal bottom bracket) as Surly produce a much wider range of stainless chainrings in that BCD so a 38t or 42t Hebie front section could be easily accommodated.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2022, 11:04:59 am »
Hi Andre, I did indeed keep the old 'glider and attach pics.

Interested to read Dan's post re a small amount of lube inside 'glider.
I'll sure try that.
Thanks Dan.

No wear visible on my ol' 'glider. More age related wear after so long and so many miles.
If that makes sense?
I guess we all slow down after a while.

Hope the pictures are of interest.

Would my Phil's waterproof grease be suitable inside the 'glider?
I'll be picking up a few tubes when I visit my son in NYC, Matawan, come August.
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Danneaux

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2022, 11:10:30 am »
Quote
Would my Phil's waterproof grease be suitable inside the 'glider?
I really can't say, but it might be fun to try inside the old one (after cleaning the interior) to see if it stops the squeak -- based on the English translation of Hebie's German-language entry in their Service FAQ. I don't see what you'd lose except a small amount of expensive grease (which you might wish to save for other purposes, given the cost).

Your Chainglider looks pretty weather-checked, Matt...even inside. I'd say it gave you stellar service to this point and may well deserve retirement. However, if you are of a curious nature....  :D

Best, Dan.

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2022, 02:31:09 pm »
Thanks Dan.
However given that the clips have failed I think I'll skip the trial.

However, if you are of a curious nature....  :D

Matt
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Andre Jute

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2022, 01:09:38 am »
The photos are indeed of riveting interest, Matt. Thanks. I must say your Chainglider looks better than any of my Dutch plastic chain cases looked at 3200km, which is the longest any of them lasted*. But what Dan calls "weather-check[ing] inside" and the worn-out fitting systems of the slots and tongues do indicate retirement: a chain guard which can't keep the weather out any longer has finished serving.

I think you're smart to skip the trial of putting Phil's green goo on a Chainglidered chain, even if only on grounds of the likely cost to conduct the experiment thoroughly, several hundred pounds minimum for enough Phil. Why? Phil's lube works by going squishy where there is movement between parts, which describes a chain's many components in dynamic relationship to each other, and also the chain's dynamic relationship to the toothed metal wheelies. The Phil's remaining green and thick holds in the thinned goo. Some of that thin stuff, no matter how well it lubricates, is likely to come out of the Chainglider, which after all has a drain hole, and get on braking surfaces, and on your clothes, and require frequent cleaning -- and by then the purpose of the Chainglider is long obviated. Perhaps you could avoid action-thinned Phil's goo dripping out by packing the whole of the Chainglider with the Phil's, as Dan and I do with various much less capacious spaces inside the Rohloff's EXT box (or boxes, to be inclusive of all faiths and heresies and kibitzers), in which application the unliquified Phil's makes a barrier to the thinner stuff created by the motion between close-fitting parts. I just don't see that the expense of a whole Chainglider full of Phil's is warranted.

*My original article about chain guards, "A Fully Enclosed Chaincase That Works" at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2233.msg10717#msg10717
can in retrospect be seen as a valedictory for the Dutch style of metal or plastic fully enclosing chain cover, and an announcement of the successful challenger, the Chainglider via Utopia's Country chain case (something similar to the Hebie Chainglider in appearance but in design and construction more akin to a hybrid).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 01:16:08 am by Andre Jute »

Andre Jute

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2022, 03:15:10 am »
I'm starting to wonder whether Hebie designed the Chainglider in-house, or whether Hebie, a bicycle-component distributor, merely branded a product designed and manufactured by someone else. Over the years there has been so much ignorance and contradiction about their own product coming out of Hebie, far more than one would expect from a firm where the proud engineer who fathered a successful product still sits at his drawing board just down the hall from publicity and customer support (you can probably bet that the product manager in charge is now a marketing manager somewhere bigger). What strikes one forcefully, again, in the sources Dan cites is that they're contradictory beyond belief for an engineering firm, and even more so for a German engineering firm.

*Of particular note from the English translation of the German at the Service FAQ above...
Quote
Sufficient chain care should take place at the latest during the first inspection, since the initial lubrication of the chain by the chain manufacturer mainly has preservation properties and is not designed for long running times.

contradicts Andre's experience running the chain on its original factory lube within the Chainglider for as long as possible.

Hmm. I think I'll stick to my proven ways, thanks all the same.

However, just a reminder: I designed and developed my bike as an exercise towards a zero-routine-maintenance, minimum-service, rare-component-replacement bike. I specifically don't care about the mickey mouse cost of unoptimised chain by running solely on the factory lube or even throwing it off at only two-thirds worn (0.5 rather than 0.75) when that coincides with the annual oil change on the Rohloff. I get a thrill from getting three times and change the best chain mileage I got under previous arrangements, even without optimising the potential distance obtainable from running the chain to death, but that's a fringe benefit to riding a permanently clean, silent, comfortable, undemanding bike.

It is quite possible, and supported by my own previous experience, that adding Oil of Rohloff (the best lube I know) to a chain inside a chain guard will potentiate an even bigger gain in chain life than running it for life on the factory lube, as I've being doing instead, but again, I can't be bothered if the chain won't go a full additional year so that replacement can coincide with the next gearbox oil change. I'd rather ride than fiddle with my bike.

Also, for those who can't resist the habit of lubing the chain, even inside a Chainglider, Oil of Rolloff applied sparingly (it comes in a small bottle with a dropper spout as a pretty strong hint) would make the least mess inside the Chainglider of all the lubes I know, including white cold wax (which drops grey balls of dirty wax from the chain but is otherwise pretty clean).

***
Something else developing with additional mileage on my bike under the present regime is a dawning realisation that replacing chains earlier rather than later must be at least partially, possibly largely, responsible for the virtually unmarked condition of the sprocket at c11,000km, with the plain steel (and not the best quality either as the centre motor necessitates fitting the component that comes with the motor) chainring also unmarked at 7500km, not numbers I ever thought I'd see when I fit Shimano's Nexus groups (if I saw anything over 1600km on them, never mind 2000, I opened champagne and wondered if I were on my way to becoming a spinner...). The balance of this benefit, however much it is, of course arises from the Chainglider keeping out dirt.

JohnR

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Re: Chainglider feedback
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2022, 08:58:00 pm »
I think this is a good a place as any to note that I've just fitted a Bikepunx stainless steel chainring. I had a Surly chainring on the wishlist but this is a less expensive alternative. The website is here https://bikepunx.com/ but the shop is broken so they are currently selling on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/bikepunxuk. The chainrings are either 2mm (for 3/32" chain) or 3mm (for 1/8" chain). I bought a 42T 2mm (last one in stock) to put inside my Chainglider. Previously I've been using a Jet steel chainring https://www.sourcebmx.com/products/jet-bmx-5-bolt-race-chainring?currency=gbp which was starting to look tatty and it's also 2.4mm thick so is a tighter fit inside the Chainglider. There is also a significant difference in weight  (Bikepunx = 125g, Jet = 210g) which is a combination of difference in thickness and the Bikepunx ring having more metal machined away.

While I was fiddling with the bike (my Elan Ti) I also tried to fit a KMC 3/32" half link on the KMC Z1 narrow chain to see if I could do away with the chain tensioner. The length of the chain with the half link looked as if it might work but I couldn't get the missing link to close when connected to the half link which seems to have slightly thicker links and the missing link, when open, was catching on the half link. I'm now wondering if a solution would be to insert the half link somewhere else on the chain.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 09:28:39 pm by JohnR »