Author Topic: Another Chainglider post 😊  (Read 451 times)

John Saxby

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 07:19:08 PM »
Let me echo Martinf's comments, with the adjustment that I have a Raven, bought in 2014.

My spec is a 17 x 36 sprocket and ring combination, with a Chainglider.  I used Surly stainless steel rings at the front until 2019.  These are sturdy, and thin enough to work with the 'glider. In my experience, however, their quality is uneven -- I've found them to create a pronounced tight spot in the chain, for example. 

I now use an alloy ring sold by Rivendell Bike Works -- Origin8 makes the rings for RBW.  These rings create no discernible tight spot -- first time I've ever seen this in a lifetime of riding chain-driven two-wheelers.

Lastly, an anecdote to confirm Martin's observation that
Quote
a chain is much cheaper and easier to replace on tour if necessary.

This is just one anecdote, but it's real, and I suggest is an important signal:

A friend-of-friend bought an expensive custom touring bike c/w Rohloff a couple of years ago, and rode it across Canada from Vancouver to Halifax. The ride took rather longer than planned: crossing the Rockies, she realized that her bike was way overgeared. (Her prep had been done in Ontario, where we have hills-a-plenty, but no mountains.)  She reached Jasper, in Central Alberta, and decided before riding south on the Icefields Parkway, that she wanted to lower her gearing. Ummmm, problem was that she was using a Gates belt.  Replacing belt and sprocket took two-weeks-plus.

By comparison, a cycling acquaintance following the same route in 2017 faced exactly the same problem in the same place. Key difference was that his wife's bike was Rohloff-equipped, but with a chain and a Surly ring. He contacted me, and I suggested he get in touch with a bike shop in Vancouver, and ask them to courier a 36T ring to jasper.  It arrived overnight, and by noon he and his wife were riding south on the parkway, a delay of 3 hours. (As compensation, her load was lighter by the weight of one chain link.)

Cheers,  John


martinf

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 07:41:42 PM »
I am convinced that a protected chain is at least as good as a belt as far as longevity is concerned.

I just donít see how this is possible. Chains don't wear out because of contamination on the chain, the thing that a Chainglider protects against. 

Mine do.

My record for wearing out a chain (to past the recommended 1% wear) is 541 kms, on a derailleur bike used for loaded touring in bad weather on sandy tracks. My best on a derailleur bike used for loaded touring is 7,762 kms, I don't remember the weather, but I am certain it wasn't on sandy tracks.

There are tests using various lubricants and various simulated conditions such as clean and dry, dusty and dry, wet. The ones I have seen show that wear increases a lot in wet, dirty conditions, which reflects my own experience.

In my experience a Chainglider does help in wet, dirty conditions, but I haven't had enough experience in dry dusty conditions to say whether it helps there.

In clean, dry conditions it probably makes no difference, but I rarely have clean, dry conditions for very long on my rides.

One exception, my old derailleur gear tourer. I now only use this for local day rides in good weather, and as the tyres are narrow (28 mm) I keep to reasonably good roads and cycle paths.

Danneaux

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 08:53:46 PM »
Quote
Dan, what you say may be true in theory, but do we have much real-world support for it? Can you link to any accounts where a tourer has cycled 30,000 km on a single Chainglider-protected chain and, at the end, did not have to replace the cog and chainring as well?
This is a good question to which I can say, "I don't know". ;)

I do remember Stuart (Stutho), highly esteemed Forum Admin before me, was not given to exaggeration and was a careful record-keeper. His mileage for an uncovered chain in all sorts of Welsh weather was remarkably high...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4308.msg20147#msg20147
...with projections for even more possible witnh careful selection of components...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2239.msg10746#msg10746

10,000+ miles' chain life on one side of a sprocket and chainring with projections of 20,000mi per chain for an optimized derivetrain is remarkable for an open system.  I wonder if the greater figure might indeed be possible...?

Best,

Dan.

ourclarioncall

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2021, 08:19:51 PM »
MartinF

Yeah, Iím the type of guy that has to analyse everything to death 10 times over and it probably drives people nuts 😁

But in my defence, when I finally make decision , Iím always happy and feel like I made the right choice.

There so many parts on a bike and so many options. Which means more time needed to scrutinise

My suspicion is that for what I will probably do with the bike , a Raven would maybe suit me better and I like them , but i also like the nomad and the heavy duty and even overbuilt ness of it . Iím about 16 stone and could get heavier (hope not!) so a big tank of a big that can go anywhere I might want appeals to me. Obviously the Ravens are no more which means Iím looking at a used bike.

ourclarioncall

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2021, 08:30:41 PM »
Andre

Totally agree with you on the fitting of the bike being priority 😊

Communication is a bit of a minefield sometimes via the written word

Often I poke fun at myself and throw in a little honest transparency by ďthinking out loudĒ

I will let yíall into a little secret , I would rather buy a nomad mk2 than a mk3 because I want black paint 😆😆😆 (***running to  hide under the bed***)

But I would not compromise on the fitting

So it will be a silver mk3 if I canít get a mk2 in my perfect size/setup 

steve216c

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2021, 10:39:03 AM »
Quote
Dan, what you say may be true in theory, but do we have much real-world support for it? Can you link to any accounts where a tourer has cycled 30,000 km on a single Chainglider-protected chain and, at the end, did not have to replace the cog and chainring as well?
This is a good question to which I can say, "I don't know". ;)

I do remember Stuart (Stutho), highly esteemed Forum Admin before me, was not given to exaggeration and was a careful record-keeper. His mileage for an uncovered chain in all sorts of Welsh weather was remarkably high...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4308.msg20147#msg20147
...with projections for even more possible witnh careful selection of components...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2239.msg10746#msg10746

10,000+ miles' chain life on one side of a sprocket and chainring with projections of 20,000mi per chain for an optimized derivetrain is remarkable for an open system.  I wonder if the greater figure might indeed be possible...?

Best,

Dan.

Dan, those links were really useful to digest. Thanks for sharing them.

My own chainglider was fitted to a 5000km old chain that had been ridden open on a reversed sprocket at time of fitting. The chain had got incredibly messy while open- due to my daily commute taking me through forested paths in all manner of weather situations. I was having to clean my chain of oily crud regularly (once or twice a week sometimes) until I switched to waxing the chain @ around 3000km into its life which ran far cleaner and allowed me 4-6 weeks (up to 1000km) between rewaxing. With the chainglider fitted around 5000km into chain's life I got just over 1000km with wax, but as wax 'falls off' as chain is used, I reverted to oil under the chainglider since around 6000km into chain's life. I removed my winter spikes at the weekend and fitted my regular tyres back on, and saw that the oiled chain is still pretty clean despite approx 2500 km since oiling it and despite winter cycling conditions. It didn't really need new oil, but as I had the chainglider open, I cleaned and reoiled just to stop the OCD mini Steve in my head nagging me later. But I am convinced the chainglider extends chain life by keeping most water and crud away from your running gear. And the wife is happy that my trousers stay cleaner too, which in itself is worth more than the cost of a new chain.
If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

steve216c

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2021, 12:18:09 PM »

My suspicion is that for what I will probably do with the bike , a Raven would maybe suit me better and I like them , but i also like the nomad and the heavy duty and even overbuilt ness of it . Iím about 16 stone and could get heavier (hope not!) so a big tank of a big that can go anywhere I might want appeals to me. Obviously the Ravens are no more which means Iím looking at a used bike.

You are not wrong to consider your own weight when choosing the right bike. I don't know how it is done in the UK, but in Germany new bike info generally shows the total authorized weight INCLUDING rider, baggage and bicycle to help you select the right bike for you. It is not just about your height and inside leg measurement- but a frame that can carry you and your luggage.
I once bought a 'discounter' bike that otherwise had reasonable looking components on it- and with a 14 days no quibble return. Bike details was total weight including rider of 100kg. I think I was around 100kg (approx 16 stone) at time of purchase- and quickly discovered that the bike was not nice to ride. The chain skipped under duress and the frame didn't feel that solid. Bike was returned. If I had kept bike, I just wouldn't have cycled as it was not a nice experience.

I then went to a real bike shop with knowledgeable staff and spent double the price on a similar looking bike- but made to carry up to 115kg. I probably should have gone a tad higher on the rating as with me+bike+bike bag I'd have been topping 120-125kg. But 20 years later, I still have that bike frame and forks in use and they still perform fine. Most of the components have worn out during that time and been replaced though. I am in no doubt that components will wear quicker with a heavier rider too as they will get more stress applied as you ride.

Although above mentioned bike is still great, and works fine, my Rohloff journey began 2 years ago when I was 49, 5'9 tall and my weight had crept up to 19 stone and suffered a stroke cause by a thrombosis. I've been a keen cyclist since my mid 20s, but had dropped from around 5000-8000km a year down to less than 100km- always putting off starting a fitness/weight loss program 'until tomorrow'. Those extra kg didn't appear overnight, but gradually as my lifestyle became more sedentary but my appetite for food had not changed since I cut down on cycling so frequently. Simple maths. If calories in exceed calories out, your weight will climb. As will your health risks.

I wasn't fit enough to cycle after my stroke. In fact I was 6 months off work. Post convalescence, my GP encouraged me to walk every day, rain or shine. I was so proud to wear the soles out on my trainers. I set a target to walk 10,000 steps/day. Then I upped my game to 16,000 every day- on average, but often way higher. I started to ride my (old) bike about 18 months ago and set myself a target that if I could get 1000 miles on my bike before my birthday, then I would reward myself with a Rohloff hubbed bike for my 50th birthday to encourage me with something new and shiny to keep my cycling. I got my birthday present 2 months early and I have made myself ride that bike every day (and I've enjoyed it too) rain or shine since then.

Back to bikes and total approved weight. The Rohloff hub is the perfect hub for tandems. And these are often with total approved weight of 200kg+. So a heavier person riding such a bike is not a problem for the hub. Chains/sprockets might wear a little quicker than a lighter person would manage- but the hubs are very reliable and highly suited to such demands.
Don't just invest in your bike purchase. You've asked a lot of questions about various aspects of getting yourself this new bike. Keep that enthusiasm once you pull the trigger and purchase- and start to ride your bike regularly. Make sure your bike is suitably sized even if not custom made (e.g. 2nd hand) for carrying you today and for the future.

16 months after purchasing my non-Thorn Rohloff hubbed bike,  I've ridden almost 9000km. The cycling combined with a healthier lifestyle means my weight has dropped by around 5 stones since my stroke. But having a bike that is enjoyable and comfortable to ride because it is designed to carry someone of your stature will encourage you to use it, and perhaps help you maintain or even lose weight in the process, rather than letting it creep up over the years as it did with me- until almost too late.

In my opinion, better to take your time and find the right bike for you, and make it your 'forever bike' than to just purchase and then regret down the line that you did not do your due diligence before parting with a not-unsubstantial amount of money for this steed if something was not quite how you wanted it. And if you do go 2nd hand (which I think you have mentioned in a couple of threads) decide on what factors you will compromise on if not exactly the specification you want. I really wanted disc brakes, but have learned to really love the HS11/HS33 Magura rim brakes that came on my bike that I know longer pine for discs.


If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

ourclarioncall

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2021, 08:54:40 PM »
Steve

Great read, good to hear you recovered and doing well. Thanks for sharing

Yeah, long term health is definitely on my priority list. Iím 41 now and go through phases of eating well and exercising then falling off the wagon as it were. No matter what weight loss regime I try I find it hard to get it off and keep it off. Even with strict discipline . I could eat the same thing every day if I knew it would give me results. I think lack of sleep really effects weight loss/recovery /muscle gain. Hormones and s ask that jazz.  I do a lot of fasting over the years, so that is a quick and easy way to lose some pounds as a side benefit . Hopefully once the kids are a bit older in the next few years il be able to get into a proper routine and get the body fat percentage down and the muscle mass up 😊


steve216c

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2021, 09:24:43 AM »
Steve

Great read, good to hear you recovered and doing well. Thanks for sharing

Yeah, long term health is definitely on my priority list. Iím 41 now and go through phases of eating well and exercising then falling off the wagon as it were. No matter what weight loss regime I try I find it hard to get it off and keep it off. Even with strict discipline . I could eat the same thing every day if I knew it would give me results. I think lack of sleep really effects weight loss/recovery /muscle gain. Hormones and s ask that jazz.  I do a lot of fasting over the years, so that is a quick and easy way to lose some pounds as a side benefit . Hopefully once the kids are a bit older in the next few years il be able to get into a proper routine and get the body fat percentage down and the muscle mass up 😊

Everyone is different. I was never a sweet tooth, but rather fond of carbs. On rehab they advised NEVER to cut out food groups or to leave yourself feeling hungry- but to balance your plate better with less carbs and more greens as a lifestyle change. By eating all food groups you shouldn't get the cravings that help you fall off the wagon. And by filling your stomach with a healthier balance of foods you don't feel empty after a meal.

A real eye opener for me was the "Lose It" app. Even with the free version (which I use) you can set your current weight age and your weight goal (e.g. lose 1lb every 14 days). It then tracks your steps and you can enter other sports manually (on free version) or link to smart functions on paid to track that. The app gives a recommended calorie intake for each day and tracking is as easy as scanning the bar code of what you are eating. If it is not in the database you can photo the nutritional info and it self populates and uploads for other users to use. If it is without a barcode, you can enter the portion size (e.g. 100g pasta or 200g homemade cake).
This helps you see where the hidden calories are. For me it was bread and pasta. And once I opened a packet of tortillas or Pringles, I would not stop until finished.

Other than regular sport (on yer bike!) the only big lifestyle changes I have made (and my family have been forced to it by default) is that we have reduced carbs in our main meals by around 25% less and replaced that with more fresh and/or froze veg. And where I used to eat sandwiches for lunch, I now take a large (approx 600g) home made salad mix each day to work and have a simple 90% balsamic vinegar to 10% oil dressing over some herbs and spices with it- having almost had a coronary seeing how creamy salad dressings/mayo often make a healthy salad more calorific than a kebab or burger meal!

Pizza night for the family used to be two 30cm pizzas. Now we have one 30cm pizza and a side salad with simple dressing as per my lunch.   Sunday dinner just has an extra side veg next to a smaller pile of roast potatoes. I just eat bread at weekends now. As for tortillas or Pringles, I simply stopped buying them. I always have a fresh fruit bowl for snacking, and it is amazing to find that I was never actually hungry for those salty snacks- but just munched too regularly out of habit and from their addictive nature.

It is a lifestyle change that works for me. I have had no big cravings as I still eat all my favourite foods- albeit with an abundance of fill-me-up healthier sides. And I have learned to love salad lunches (the only big change) Mon-Fri which do fill me up- but which were more of a challenge to get away from the cheese and marmite sandwiches I've eaten daily since I was a child. But to keep the pounds off, you need to make it a permanent change (at best with your family joining the regime) which crash or fad diets rarely do. By making healthy eating the new norm, you should be able to shed some pounds and keep them off.
If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

JohnR

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Re: Another Chainglider post 😊
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2021, 10:20:50 AM »
Everyone is different. I was never a sweet tooth, but rather fond of carbs. On rehab they advised NEVER to cut out food groups or to leave yourself feeling hungry- but to balance your plate better with less carbs and more greens as a lifestyle change. By eating all food groups you shouldn't get the cravings that help you fall off the wagon. And by filling your stomach with a healthier balance of foods you don't feel empty after a meal.
We've venturing off topic but I find raw vegetables such as carrots an excellent way of placating a stomach by giving it something to work on for a while and keep quiet. Plus there's no loss of nutrients such as occurs with cooking.