Author Topic: looking to narrow my stance  (Read 3438 times)

phopwood

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looking to narrow my stance
« on: March 30, 2021, 08:34:40 pm »
Hi,

I have just finished Mercury build all very nice, I have put a set of these on

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cranks/150-thorn-10464-pcd-triple-crankset-mk2-black/

with a 110mm bottom bracket, this gives me a Q factor of 183mm.  Over the last few years I have been riding my audax with a road double, q factor 147mm.  Unfortunately I am finding the 183mm way too wide for me.  I can reduce the q factor a bit by using 107mm bottom bracket.  Also I have moved Mt cleats to give me a few mm less.

Does anyone know a chainset that may give me a narrower q factor, I know I need to consider the chainline, at the moment I am looking at options.  What chainset do you have on your mercury.

All the best.

Peter


martinf

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2021, 09:55:14 pm »
I don't think my knees would like a 183 mm Q-factor. 160 mm is the widest I ride regularly.

My old derailleur bike:                      TA Cyclotouriste triple, Q-factor 138 mm. This is really narrow for a triple, old hub spaced to 122 mm over locknuts.
The visitor bike at our flat:               TA Zephyr single with Nexus 8 Premium, Q-factor 147 mm
My Raven Sport Tour:                       TA Cyclotouriste single, with Rohloff, Q-factor 155 mm
My Raven Tour touring bike:             TA Vortex single, with Rohloff, Q-factor 155 mm
My Raven Tour utility bike :               Thorn 5 arm triple (used as single), with Nexus 8 Premium, Q-factor 160 mm

3 conclusions:

- Old design cranks have lower Q-factors than new designs (in the past, no need to clear fat tyres).
- TA designs, even relatively recent ones like the Vortex, seem to have lower Q-factors than most other makes.
- The position of the sprocket on a Rohloff pushes the chainline out (like a modern triple) so even with the same "narrow" cranks the Q-factor is significantly more than on my old derailleur bike.

A Nexus 8 Premium hub can be set up with a significantly smaller Q-factor than a Rohloff IF the crank/bottom bracket axle interface allows this, as the dished sprocket can be fitted "dish outwards" or "dish inwards". My Raven Tour utility bike is set up like a Rohloff with "dish outwards", because I couldn't easily find a shorter bottom bracket that would fit the crank. 

Older hub gears such as the Sturmey-Archer S5/2 can have even smaller Q-factors, as the hub is spaced for narrower over locknut dimensions. I have an old utility bike and one Brompton with shorter axles than my old derailleur bike, but have never bothered measuring the Q-factor.

Pedals can exacerbate or alleviate the effects of Q-factor to some extent. I still have a lot of the old quill type pedals used on racing bikes several decades ago, they suit me better than most modern design pedals (I tried and rejected clipless pedals). I have a pair of rather wide mountain bike pedals on the visitor bike, these are good for visitors as they are easy to use with various sorts of footwear. After the visitor season I generally swap them off for a pair of old quill pedals that feel more comfortable for me.

And I fitted a pair of very narrow quill pedals (MKS Racing) to my Raven Sport Tour to try and compensate a bit for the 155 mm Q-factor.   

phopwood

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2021, 10:19:02 pm »
Martin,

Many thanks for the detailed reply, I never got on with the older mountain bike triples, they alway felt to wide.  I know the chainline is part of the problem, on the Mercury. 

On my old sherpa I had a triple sora and this worked well and was comfortable.  But I am not sure it would fit the 73mm mercury BB shell. 

I have also just been digging in the garage and found an old teagra triple which will fit a 73mm shell, so I will give this a try.  I have not measured this yet, but it looks much narrower then than the current setup.

Peter

phopwood

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2021, 10:22:31 pm »
Martin,

What width bottom bracket do you have on your raven sports tour. 

Peter.

PH

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2021, 12:21:11 am »
I think Martin has done well to get it below 160 with a Rohloff chainline.  I'd be a bit surprised if his 155 could be bettered.
I have the opposite issue, that I pedal a bit toe out, I have that chainset with the ring in the middle position and a 118 BB and still occasionally clip a heel on a chainstay.
So, no recommendation, but if you do find what you're looking for I may be interested if you're selling the Thorn one.

martinf

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2021, 08:29:37 am »
Martin,

What width bottom bracket do you have on your raven sports tour. 

Peter.
The shell is 73 mm. The BB unit is a TA Axix 131 mm, this can be adjusted to fit 68 mm or 73 mm. 131 mm is very long because of the old design TA Cyclotouriste cranks I use on that bike.

My Raven Tour Touring (and my Raven Tour utility bike) both have Shimano UN55 110 mm in the 68 mm width. For the same chainline, the TA Vortex cranks are 5 mm narrower than the 5-arm Thorn cranks. Vortex was a mountain-bike crank, so I would expect a (relatively) modern TA road crank to be a bit narrower.

phopwood

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2021, 10:02:08 am »
Quote
The shell is 73 mm. The BB unit is a TA Axix 131 mm, this can be adjusted to fit 68 mm or 73 mm. 131 mm is very long because of the old design TA Cyclotouriste cranks I use on that bike.

My Raven Tour Touring (and my Raven Tour utility bike) both have Shimano UN55 110 mm in the 68 mm width. For the same chainline, the TA Vortex cranks are 5 mm narrower than the 5-arm Thorn cranks. Vortex was a mountain-bike crank, so I would expect a (relatively) modern TA road crank to be a bit narrower.


Thanks.  I am looking online to see what I can see, spa cycles have a bunch with a Q factor of around 155. 

I found a Tiagra 4603 but these have 165mm cranks arms and I prefer 170mm.  That said I am going to give them a try today and see if the Tiagra triple makes a noticeable difference to my overall comfort.

This image shows the difference between the my current thorn triple and the tiagra triple.

leftpoole

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2021, 10:15:02 am »
ALL my cycling life I was concerned about the chainline! No longer because it seems no longer to be a factor. Why ? I hear you say.
Well, simply put, because numerous bicycles are now retrograded to a single chainring with up to 13 sprockets at the rear.

This makes in my opinion a total nonsense of chainline.

Aleman

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2021, 11:43:13 am »
ALL my cycling life I was concerned about the chainline! No longer because it seems no longer to be a factor. Why ? I hear you say.
Well, simply put, because numerous bicycles are now retrograded to a single chainring with up to 13 sprockets at the rear.

This makes in my opinion a total nonsense of chainline.
Unless you are talking about Rohloff ;) Where the sprocket will act as a fulcrum for the force through the pedals, and transfer that force through the shafts of the IGH ... exacerbating bearing wear

martinf

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2021, 11:48:56 am »
One more thing to reduce Q-factor with a Rohloff: - choose the slimline sprocket carrier.

The standard carrier has a 57 mm chainline, the slimline 55 mm and the old screw-on sprockets 54 mm.

I have the old screw-on sprockets on my Raven Sport Tour and my Raven Tour Touring.

phopwood

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2021, 12:32:18 pm »
Quote
One more thing to reduce Q-factor with a Rohloff: - choose the slimline sprocket carrier.

The standard carrier has a 57 mm chainline, the slimline 55 mm and the old screw-on sprockets 54 mm.

I have the old screw-on sprockets on my Raven Sport Tour and my Raven Tour Touring.

My Rohloff has a screw on sprocket, as you say this will help.


mickeg

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2021, 02:10:51 pm »
My Nomaad Mk II, I wanted the Q factor to be as close to the same as on my derailleur bikes as practical.  I selected a square taper bottom bracket spindle about 10mm shorter than I should have for an ideal chainline, thus my chaineline is off about 5mm.

I did not think that would be a big deal, I am running my chainring on the inside position on a double crank.  Running a bashguard on the outside.  But if I found a chainline error of 5mm to be too big, I figured I could use the outer position on the crank for my chainring, that would have had an ideal chainline.  Or I could have put a spacer on the right side of the bottom bracket to move the bottom bracket further to the right.

Now, eight years later, have not had a problem with a 5mm chainline error.  I am running the threaded sprockets.  Last year I finally flipped my sprocket for the first time.  I see no reason to change my driveline to reduce chainline.

I have noted on this forum in the past I am running a 16T sprocket, not the Thorn recommended 17T.  I cut a small notch in one tooth and always put a link with outer plates on that tooth, the reason I do that is described here:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

What I am going to describe here is the difference in wear on the sprocket teeth with a chainline error.  The chain links that have inner plates, those inner plates rub on the side of the sprocket teeth, the links with outer plates, those plates are physically further apart and to do not contact the sprocket teeth.

First photo, the sprocket after eight years of use.  You are looking at the outer side of the sprocket, if the sprocket was still on the bike you would be on the right side of the bike and the hub flange and spokes would be behind the sprocket.  Because my chainline at the crankset was narrower by about 5mm, the chain was slightly pulled inwards against the sprocket teeth as I pedaled.  You can see the notched tooth, I always ran a link with outer plates on that tooth.  The tooth to the immediate right of that tooth, you can see visible side wear on the side of the tooth, since that tooth always had chain links with inner plates, the plates on the chain wore down the tooth slightly.

Second photo, the other side of the sprocket.  A very slight amount of wear on the side of the sprockets that had inner plate links, but not as much wear as the first photo shows.

Thus, there is a bit more wear on the sprocket teeth with the additional side wear when you have a small amount of chainline error, but in my opinion it is not enough to be of concern.  That said, my chainline error is about 5mm, if you had significantly greater chainline error, that might start to be a bigger concern.

This is not much wear for eight years, but I have several derailleur bikes too and most of my distance is ridden on those other bikes.  So far in 2021, I have not ridden my Nomad at all.  That said, my Nomad was the bike I used in some of the more harsh conditions that I have been in.

One other note, you can see from the photos that the teeth that had inner plate chainlinks are smaller now, those teeth had more wear than the other teeth, that is due to every other chain link being slightly more elongated as described at the Sheldon Brown website that I cited above.

phopwood

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Re: looking to narrow my stance
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2021, 04:02:05 pm »
Hi thanks for all the advice, I put the tiagra 4603 on my mercury and they fitted fine as a single.  The narrower q factor seems to work much better for me, I will know for sure in the next few rides.    I would like to go narrower, but I need to be sure be for invest, in another crankset.

Peter