Author Topic: Thorn bike spectrum  (Read 5353 times)

leftpoole

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2020, 10:40:40 am »
Apologies for the late reply

Thanks for the replies and the details. I’m very analytical so love love long length detailed posts 🙂

There is so much to read on this forum I’m getting lost 😊

You will soon get fed up with the long generally boring ones! Same old same old (writers) generally... :'( :'(

Andre Jute

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2020, 12:20:22 pm »
Are there any other alternatives to the chainglider out there or are they the main player?

What would maintenance look like with a rohloff and chainglider ? I hear you just change rohloff oil every so many miles

What about the chain under the chainglider does that have be regularly looked at ? Do you still get a small amount of dirt/dust etc getting in through small gaps ? It looks a good 95% enclosed from what I’ve seen

There are no alternatives to the Chainglider. The big Dutch chain cases in either metal or plastic are to exposed to damage too be suitable for tourers, the segmented plastic thingies that move with the chain don't work. The only other contender,  Utopia-Velo's Country chain case, while under limiting circumstances a theoretically superior option to the Chainglider, is three to four times the price, needs a frame mounting brazed on, is too fragile to go off the road even momentarily, and gains its superb design-silence from rubber parts that must be replaced once year, which the makers assume factory-trained mechanics will do, in short, it is for rich commuters, not tourers. I was lucky mine on my decidedly uncoddled Utopia Kranich lasted a couple of years rather than months.

By the manual, you need to service two parts of your Rohloff, the EXT click box (if you have one -- the bare-wire alternative is called "Internal" and apparently is not serviced except with new cables every now and then) which supposedly needs a shot of grease every 500km, and the gearbox oil which needs changing every year or 3000m/5000km, whichever comes earliest. By going to very high quality Phil's grease in the EXT klickbox I've regularized the klickbox service to the same once a year as the main oil change, without ill effect. Keep to the regulated oil service, especially when your Rohloff is new: your warranty depends on it, and the Rohloff isn't fine machinery, like a watch, it's hefty German agricultural machinery and in the beginning it will knock off tiny bits of metal, which the oil service will remove. You can dip a magnet in the dirty oil to judge the amount of metal ground off.

The cleanest service for a chain in a Chainglider is to let it run on the factory lube for its entire life without any additional oil. My first test ran to 4506km, when I did the gearbox and klickbox services and threw a 50 percent worn chain off because i do only one service a year and I can't be bothered to save a few Euro on a chain at the expense of wearing my expensive sprocket and chainring faster; my bike doesn't even get washed in between but the tiny lanes I ride on are all tarmac and usually clean even in the farmlands so my bike hardly gets dusty except in the harvest season. These days I don't even bother opening the Chainglider to inspect the chain between putting it on and removing it a year later; this year with the COVID restrictions severely cutting cycling, I won't open the Chainglider at all because the chain will go another year for sure. If this worries you, the next cleanest oil is Oil of Rohloff, a chain oil which comes in a small bottle for about a fiver and lasts forever. You put on only a few drops at extended intervals if you run the chain in a Chainglider. Read up on Sheldon Brown about oiling only one edge of the chain so the oil can run in where most needed, which is not on the outside of the chain. Note that I use only KMC 8sp chains, generally derailleur 8sp chains like the X8, because those are the best value for money (there's experience by others of the more expensive KMC "hub gear chains" on the forum here, generally not enthusiastic enough to change my mind about the X8). There's something about the KMC factory lube...

If you search on the forum for "CYA" or EXT you'll come to my experiments on the EXT box. My experiments on running the chain for its entire service life on the factory lube are found by searching for "Chainglider". There are also descriptions by me of experience with all the available chain cases but what you really need to know is that after all that I can recommend only the Chainglider, and a lot of experienced cyclists here have had good luck with it under conditions of varying severity and written on the forum about it. It is probably the one component that would gather the most consensus here; I can think only of Schwalbe tyres and maybe, just maybe, Brooks saddles, which might challenge that status.

Good luck with your bike.

GamblerGORD649

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2020, 09:46:47 pm »
For SURE get a disc Rohloff14, mine has just 17,000 miles, half on 2 tours. And get the external shift box. I really like my super strong long torque arm and bolt on axle version, the QR ones seem to leak a lot more, not good. It now has a cable TRP Spyre brake with SA long pull levers, stops instantly. The front hub is a SA XL-FDD dyno drum brake with 27,000 flawless miles, one bearing change. ZERO worries and near zero maintenance. Lights always on.
I have a track dropout custom HEAVY frame with a bunch of DIY parts and CF addons, including an unbreakable CF chaincase. My shifter is DIY on the TT, where it belongs, IMO. Can use with either hand, with NO interference with other bar functions. I still manage to do a bunch of century all day rides, both with the Rohloff wheel and a SA XL-RD5w wheel. The bike is so imposing and complicated, nobody can figure it out. LOL
 I am near 67 now. My tours were Vietnam/ China in winter 2014/15 and NW America in 2018. Me + the bike is up to 295 lbs, without camping stuff. LOL. I only wear regular golf clothes and steel toe shoes.

Get a proper full size frame and then shorten the stem if necessary. With your height and aspirations, I wouldn't fiddle with a light bike. My tyres are 36 mm, but you obviously need at least 47 mm. I positively hate gravel.
Ride at least 2,000 miles and an oil change before you set off.
The new Nomad has a less sloped TT, much better, over 2" is idiotic.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 02:50:10 pm by GamblerGORD649 »

ourclarioncall

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2020, 10:22:20 pm »
Andre

Thanks for the detailed info , appreciate it 👍

ourclarioncall

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2020, 10:24:50 pm »
Leftpoole

I’m a bit long winded myself haha, so don’t mind long detailed posts 😁

I like the bottom line but every picture needs a frame

ourclarioncall

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2020, 10:29:32 pm »
Cheers Gambler

So what’s the scoop with the top tube and angle ?

It’s something I was noticing when looking at the various size frames on the nomad 2 and also comparing them to the Sherpa

A guy I was talking to on YouTube has both a Sherpa and a nomad 2, both the same frame size but it appears the geometry is a bit different - straighter top tube on the Sherpa

I read both bikes are a lot different to ride and that the Sherpa feels a bit faster

Which is interesting as I think both frames are not that significantly different in weight ?

Does the frame geometry effect the speed/acceleration of the bike ? Or is it just that nomads are typically built up with heavier parts and are heavier and slower as a result ?

GamblerGORD649

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2020, 10:36:03 pm »
The problem with steep sloped TTs is the small USELESS triangle. It cramps the water bottles and or the frame bag. The long seat post is laughable. Plus I think it makes the rear rack attachment very lame.
Fitting is also very problematic.

steve216c

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2020, 12:30:03 pm »


What would maintenance look like with a rohloff and chainglider ? I hear you just change rohloff oil every so many miles

What about the chain under the chainglider does that have be regularly looked at ? Do you still get a small amount of dirt/dust etc getting in through small gaps ? It looks a good 95% enclosed from what I’ve seen

I fitted a chainglider a month ago, and today passed 1000km without a problem. I have been experimenting with candlewax baths on chain for a few months vice oil, and this has generally kept chain cleaner for longer than regular lubrication. Of course the main problem of traditional lubrication is not the oil or the grease but the dirt and grit that gets attached to the chain and causes it to wear prematurely. Inside the chainglider you effectively cut out the dirt/grit/grime through the barrier of the casing- so traditional oil/grease ought to last longer between lubing as it is neither getting washed/diluted by the elements nor dirtied by grit/grime.

The chainglider is exposed in a couple of places- but my daily commute takes me through forest paths and the muck that collects on the glider does not appear to collect near those 'openings'.

At 1000km+, my waxed chain is still working smoothly and quietly inside the chainglider- untouched since fitting it in October. That has exceeded my previous record of approx 900km between waxing with traditional chain guard where bottom of chain was exposed to the elements.

Andre suggests you can run a new chain on its factory lube for it's entire life which was one of the online testimonials that convinced me to buy one. I've not been disappointed so far- and am 'looking forward' to when I need to replace my 6000km chain (5000of them without a chainglider)and try the 'Andre Jute facory lube challenge' with my next brand new chain. But I am hoping I can 'stretch' this chain to at least 10,000km before I do that.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.msg81747#msg81747

Ultimately- the cost of the Chainglider is a real investment that actually saves you money and time.
a) chain life ought to be extended- so better value there
b) less (or no) lubing during chain life (save oil & environment)
c) no caterpillar tattoos/ oily chain-imprints ruining your trousers, socks or legs (saves on cleaning/buying clothes and keeps the wifey off your case)
d) less time needed to maintain your bike- either DIY or in a bike shop from premature wear (saving time/money or both!)

I'm converted. I just wish I had converted a year ago when the current chain was brand new and saved myself some otherwise avoidable DIY chain maintenance.
If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

PH

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2020, 09:36:14 am »
If you want a do it all bike, the Mercury probably isn't it.  It's a fantastic bike for what it does but IME it's a fairly narrow band.  Maybe if you are a particularly lightweight rider you might extend that a bit, but at 6'3" and 95kg on the largest size mine is reserved for faster rides on good surfaces with minimal luggage.
The consider the Audax to be even less an all rounder than the Mercury. I ride quite a few Audax and the traditional Audax bike is no longer the default bike of choice.
The Raven and Sherpa are discontinued, so unless looking secondhand or there's some NOS, you can probably disregard them, if they meet your needs you might also consider if you want to tie yourself to 26" wheels.

That leaves the Club Tour and the Nomad.  Both of these would be fine as all-rounders, depending on the build.  I'd say the 700c Nomad, with V brake fork and Rohloff would be smack bang in the middle of the range. Sporty enough with the right tyres to be fun on fast days, tough enough with a change of tyres to carry a full camping load.  It'd be a bit of a compromise at both ends of the spectrum, but I could live with that. If you didn't need the flexibility of the Nomad and wanted derailleur gears, the Club Tour would probably do just as well.  I have a trad steel tourer (Non Thorn, but not very different to the Club) built up with light wheels and tyres, no racks or dynamo, drop bars. it's my fastest bike, it replaced an Audax and doesn't loose much to it, speeds are comparable, handling isn't so sharp. 

ourclarioncall

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2020, 05:26:44 pm »
Thanks for the info PH

you’ve helped refine my thinking there . So the heavy duty ness of a bike is not just about the frame alone.

I keep reading about heavy wheels, light wheels, heavy tires, light tires, different amounts of spokes

I don’t understand any of this really, but I hear people saying just a change of tire can make a big difference in average mph for example

martinf

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2020, 08:20:38 am »
Thanks for the info PH

you’ve helped refine my thinking there . So the heavy duty ness of a bike is not just about the frame alone.

I keep reading about heavy wheels, light wheels, heavy tires, light tires, different amounts of spokes

I don’t understand any of this really, but I hear people saying just a change of tire can make a big difference in average mph for example

Not just the frame. Even on a fairly heavy frame with heavy-duty wheels, lightweight tyres can make a big difference to the ride. But they don't have to be narrow.

My Raven Tour is a "heavy" build, with Andra 30 rims. But I have mainly used light Marathon Supreme tyres in the 50 mm width as I do most of my mileage on tarmac and the Supremes roll better than more robust tyres. If planning a trip with lots of use on tracks and paths I would fit Marathon Duremes, or (perhaps but not certainly) proper expedition tyres.

Not sure that having more spokes than usual is really necessary for me. The 32 spoke wheels on my Raven Tour have coped with all-up weights up to about 120 Kg, with moderate use on rideable tracks and paths, but not outright mountain biking as I don't do that. I do pay attention to ride gently when off tarmac with a touring load.

One thing that does make a difference when carrying a significant amount of luggage is a good quality tubular steel rack. When I changed from my ancient Karrimor rear rack to a Thorn rear rack I really noticed the difference in stability with heavy loads. Tubus is pretty good as well.

PH

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2020, 04:00:06 pm »
OK, there's two elements, physics and phycology!
The physics is pretty simple - there's only three things to overcome to move a bike forward:
Wind resistance, by far the biggest, it'll vary with circumstance, but if you think of it as 80% of your effort. you wouldn't be far wrong
Friction, this is mainly tyre rolling resistance, but also the drivetrain and any bearings
Inertia, simply the effort of moving a mass.
OK, hopefully still with it?
So, if I were to take all the lightweight components off my Mercury and put them on a Nomad frame, two of the three above remain unchanged and the minor weight difference will have a tiny effect on the third.  If I put the same effort in, the outcome will be almost the identical.  Most people agree on this, though there might be the odd one who knows better than the basic laws of physics.
If I put the same effort in.  That's the rub, that's the phycology. 
A lighter bike with sportier geometry feels different, the handling might make you brake later and cut the corner tighter, it might encourage you to get out of the saddle and sprint up the hill.  It feels more rewarding to put the effort in, so we do. 
If I take my heaviest or lightest bikes out for an hour there might be 2-3 mph difference between them.  If I put a heart rate monitor on and do it at the same level of effort, there will only be a tiny difference.  If I'm out all day, there's a limit to the effort I can put in, so the gap narrows. If I'm more comfortable on one over the other, I'm more likely to sustain the effort.
The phycology is of course subjective, if someone says their heavyweight touring bike feels sporty, then it does.  Or their lightweight carbon road bike feels like a donkey they'd also be right. If someone says one bike with similar components and weight is loads faster than another, they're wrong. It's not me saying so, it's physics.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 04:03:08 pm by PH »

trailplanner

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2020, 06:04:40 pm »
..add hills ;-) then the physics changes

JohnR

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2020, 08:44:03 pm »
..add hills ;-) then the physics changes
Except, in theory, pedalling an extra 2kg of bike up a hill when the combined weight of bike + rider + baggage could be 100kg isn't very significant compared to a bit of headwind. 

I would, however, note that a heavier frame is likely to be less compliant and more likely to transfer road shocks. See, for example, https://fitwerx.com/stiffness-compliance/. Maybe I'm getting old but the roads seem to be getting rougher and less comfortable to cycle on which is why I'm now riding a Mercury with ~50mm tyres (but I'm not planning to load the bike up to Thorn's recommended limit - see page 23 of http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thorn_mega_brochure.pdf).

PH

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Re: Thorn bike spectrum
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2020, 09:18:40 pm »
..add hills ;-) then the physics changes
I don't understand that?  What part of the physics changes?