Author Topic: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?  (Read 11621 times)

hendrich

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2020, 03:49:27 pm »
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Anybody tried fitting one to a fixed wheel machine?
Nooo, Brummie...but I recently finished making a chainguard for my own Fixie using my kitchen oven set to low heat, a plywood form, and a sheet of 2.3mm/0.09in smoked polycarbonate. A nice project during Covid downtime. It covers the chain run from just ahead of the sprocket all the way 'round to about 4 o'clock on the chainring. I'm nearly done getting it dialed in, but so far it appears it will work well for keeping the bulk of the rainwater off the top run of the chain and also the front of the chainring. I have a long mudflap on my front mudguard so there's almost no road spray that gets kicked onto the chain from below. I drilled a couple holes in the top which I covered with rubber plugs, the intention being to provide oiling from above without the need for removal.

I have been considering doing something like this for our tandem timing chain (first) and then rear chain. I don't have a template, but will cut the wood to measurements. However, I was not sure which plastic to use, but thanks to you I now know. May I bug you with a few questions...

What plywood thickness, 3/4 in?

Did you cut the wood to match the BMX form and then cut the plastic leaving an extra border width of about 3 inch (or ?) to then bend over the plywood edge when hot?

Why did you decide to stop a 4 o'clock, rather than 6, perhaps concern about warping of plastic around chainring line?

What is the nominal distance between the chain and the inner guard surface (top and side clearance)?

Thanks again for any information, I now have a winter project! (Will open windows when heating plastic.)

Mike

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2020, 06:51:47 pm »
Of course, this is only true if a ground-hugging front mudflap is also used.

Home made?
Instructions please.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2020, 07:49:23 pm »
Home made?
Instructions please.

Mudflap cut from an opaque white 5 litre plastique container as used for white spirit and other liquids. I use these on all my bikes, generally on both the front and rear mudguards. The one on the rear mudguard is "just" visible in the photo, on that I add two red reflective stripes to enhance visibility from the rear.

I generally prefer white, but on my touring Raven Tour I used black to match the frame, probably from a container that had held motor oil.

I curve the mudflap into the mudguard and fix it with either pop rivets or bolts, in both cases with flat washers to spread the load and avoid crushing the plastic too much.

The curve stiffens the mudflap, so that it stays in position and doesn't get deflected by strong winds. But the plastic is still flexible enough to bend if I pick up a twig or touch a rock.


brummie

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2020, 08:27:36 pm »
Thanks Martin, and Dan for your contributions. Food for thought.
 

Andre Jute

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2020, 11:19:25 pm »
You guys know of course that the makers of the popular (or at least the best) Pxx mudguards sell aerodynamic deflectors for both the front and the back -- or top and bottom -- of their mudguards. These are small guides for air and water rather than mudflaps but they do a very good job on my P65 mudguards over 60mm Big Apples, so that I'm not joking when I say that twice a year I wipe some light dust off my Chainglider. It's been years since my shoes or trousers bottoms have gotten wet on my bike.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 04:05:54 am by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2020, 11:48:07 pm »
Thanks, Martin, for the kind words and the time and trouble you took to illustrate the throw from spray and where it lands. Very helpful and much appreciated. That red bike is stunning with its matching bags.

And now some details for Mike; if too long for others, just skip...

Making this chainguard was something I've had in mind for some time and so I put a lot of advance planning into it. I think by sharing I can save you some time, so I'll do it in a tabular fashion:

1) When I said "I shamelessly copied a BMX chainguard that was way too short for my needs" I was referring to a broken one I recovered from a trash skip and used for inspiration. By looking closely at it, I was able avoid some initial pitfalls and I was also able to test-fit what was left of it to check basic clearances. It was too short for my chainstays and designed for a 34t chainring, so I needed to scale it up to fit my 38t 'ring and allow clearance for something larger in the future.

2) I made my "buck" (plywood form) from 3/4in labeled plywood that actually measured 11/16in thick. Make the plywood mold as smooth as possible to save yourself polishing later. The outside will take care of itself, but the inside will pick up every little imperfection in the wood mold and those flaws will set in the hardened plastic.

The polycarbonate I used was 2.3mm/0.09in, so pretty thin but sturdy enough, especially when "folded" over the mold (the 3-D shape helps stiffness). I sourced my plastic locally, but this link will give you a general idea as to thicknesses and availability: https://www.acmeplastics.com/cut-to-size-clear-polycarbonate-sheet

I initially set my oven to 175°F and kept the door closed until it was thoroughly warm, then opened it and placed the buck on the rack set on the lowest bracket until it began to soften and then adjusted the temperature. I really have no idea what the final temperature was because I kept opening the door and moving the plywood and plastic so it would form properly. I used leather gloves to handle the plywood buck and later, undersized nitrile gloves (no wrinkles) to do the final shaping outside the oven with the aid of my heat gun and a spackling spatula with a metal blade. If you do a longer chainguard, oven size might be a limitation.

3) I first drew what I wanted in profile using heavy cardstock and then trimmed it until I achieved the desired shape and transferred that to the plywood later. This pattern let me check clearances as well as serving as a final pattern to cut away the excess plastic -- and there was a lot of excess. It is necessary in order to achieve a good "drape" of the softened plastic over the plywood form. The final chainguard is about 1/3 of the total plastic I shaped over the mold. My initial pattern was a large rectangle of plastic from which I later carved a chainguard using my cardstock pattern as a template. I drilled some small holes so I could secure the rectangle of plastic sheet to the edge of the plywood mold; this kept it from shifting while the sides softened and draped; the nail holes became my oiling ports. A Dremel with a fresh/sharp spiral cutting bit set to medium speed (to prevent melting) did a nice job on the trimming. I polished the cut edge after as I did the whole chainguard. I used Blue Magic polish on a cotton buffing wheel set to low speed to avoid melting the plastic.

4) While it is easy to warp/wrap the softened plastic over the vertical top edge of the plywood mold, it is much more difficult to make the front wraparound for the chainring and this is why I stopped at 4 o'clock instead of 6 o'clock. The greater the curvature, the greater the distortion as you are working with three sides there. The plastic wants to wrinkle where it goes around the bend and more wrap can makes it worse. I used a dual-range heat gun to ease the plastic around and this helped a lot; a spackling spatula with a metal blade helps smooth/press/shape any distorting plastic against the plywood buck.

I too have a tandem and was mightily tempted to also make my first project a timing chain cover. I may yet, but there would need to be chainring curves at each end and a simple chainguard seemed the best first project. Also, making mounts would be more challenging and the longer distance could make it a challenge to fit in the oven unless it was made in two pieces. My tandem has a front eccentric to tension the timing chain so that would need to be taken into account as well.

5) I'm running a 1/8in chain on my Fixie, so it is 1/32in wider than the usual derailleur chain. I would say I have about ~5mm or roughly 3/16in between the chain pins and the inner side of the chainguard. Remember, the chainguard will never be narrower than your plywood buck, so it is best to choose the needed thickness when you make your mold. You will need to check the clearance between the crankset spider/chainring and the back side of the crankarm so you can avoid rubbing the chainguard as you pedal.

6) The mounts must be solid to impart rigidity as the chainguard which won't sag but can twist. As noted, I tied the steel rear mount into my dropout mudguard stay adapter so it is rigid but the front mount took more care. I used a glass-filled nylon reflector mount and used a Dremel to mill a small slot into it, sized to accept an M5 nut and drilled a lateral 5mm hole to accept a screw. I left a little flange on the inside of the chainguard and tapped it to M5x0.8 to accept an allenhead machine screw started from the inside. I used kneaded beeswax on the screw threads to hold the nut in position until it could be clamped in the bracket; in this way, I could adjust the offset and center the chainguard over the chainring simply by adjusting how far the captive nut screwed onto the screw. Mine was spot-on because I calculated the offset needed when I modified the bracket but thin washers could be used as spacers easily enough.

7) Yes, open the windows during the operation. I also wore my brazing mask fitted with charcoal cannister filters so I didn't smell the plastic until I removed it.

8 ) I sourced my plastic locally, but this link will give you a general idea as to thicknesses and availability:
https://www.acmeplastics.com/cut-to-size-clear-polycarbonate-sheet

9) As for mudflaps, I prefer the pre-made BuddyFlaps in "Regular" size from Portland, Oregon. They are a really nice size and I often use the longer "rear" flap on the front so the spray zone is kept well below the chain. They are cut from thick virgin vinyl and have enough mass to avoid being blown back at speed. See: https://buddyflaps.com/

I hope this answers your questions, Mike.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:18:06 am by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2020, 11:59:59 pm »
A very impressive job, Dan. It seems to me that your material is sturdy enough, and the rear mounting far enough back so that you could curl the chain guard round to 8 o'clock on the sprocket without problems. So what if the sprocket isn't centred in the imaginary circle of the the chain guard after you adjust for chain wear? However, I can easily see that the extra modelling, moulding, manufacturing and fettling work for this small extension of what you've done already will consume as much as, or even a multiple of, the time for all the rest to that point. The basic cheapness of working with mouldable plastics only works if you either don't count your own labour or will make tens or hundreds of thousands of units.

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2020, 01:39:15 am »
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A very impressive job, Dan. It seems to me that your material is sturdy enough, and the rear mounting far enough back so that you could curl the chain guard round to 8 o'clock on the sprocket without problems.
Thank you, Andre. The biggest problem I ran into trying to curl the chainguard further was the distortion it caused in the plastic. The 'guard has three sides at the front and it is a challenge to get it to wrap more without wrinkles.
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So what if the sprocket isn't centered in the imaginary circle of the the chain guard after you adjust for chain wear?
It is pretty well centered up front as I have no eccentric but would be a much bigger challenge on my Nomad. However, I left the rear open to allow for adjustment as I couldn't do like Hebie and fit an adjustable tailpiece. That is beyond my skillset and tools at present.  ;)
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I can easily see that the extra modelling, moulding, manufacturing and fettling work for this small extension of what you've done already will consume as much as, or even a multiple of, the time for all the rest to that point. The basic cheapness of working with mouldable plastics only works if you either don't count your own labour or will make tens or hundreds of thousands of units.
Oh, yes! :D Due to the time and effort invested, I'll never get rich making them! However, it was a fun project during some downtime.  ;)

All the best,

Dan.


hendrich

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2020, 02:55:34 pm »
Dan,
Thanks much for your detailed reply. The part you folded over the wood was initially approximately 4 inch? 3/4 inch (wood thickness) + 3 inches, and then you trimmed the folded over piece. The extra length was for leverage in the bending process while hot?

Also, is it possible you plasticized the inside of your oven from the fumes? The stoker would have some very pointed, choice words if I damaged our oven. Is it conceivable to do all with only a heat gun?

There is something very satisfying in the construction of homemade stuff that becomes an essential part of the bike. To share, the picture shows a center bag for our bike that we designed and sewed.

Mike

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2020, 04:44:11 pm »
Hi Mike!
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The part you folded over the wood was initially approximately 4 inch? 3/4 inch (wood thickness) + 3 inches, and then you trimmed the folded over piece.
I used 8 inches because...
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The extra length was for leverage in the bending process while hot?
Exactly! I would suggest you be generous with the overage as it makes the job easier and any embossed finger and spatula marks will be cut off, leaving a "clean" final product. The raw dimensions will depend on your final product. Side + side + top + overage at the wraparound front, side + top + overage at the rear.
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Also, is it possible you plasticized the inside of your oven from the fumes?
Possible but if so, I haven't noticed. Food baked in it still tastes and smells like food and not plastic. ;D There is no remaining odor; that cleared out immediately unlike some of my past paint-curing efforts. Remember, the idea is only to warm the plastic until it is ductile for forming, not to melt it or catch it on fire as it drips onto the lower element. Those two outcomes would be Very Bad Indeed for oven and plastic-bending stoker captain alike. :o There weren't many fumes apparent when I removed my mask. I believe it is possible to do this with only a heat gun but it will be a greater challenge to heat it evenly without getting thin spots or surface bubbling. Long sweeps with the heat gun blast would probably aid the effort. If you bend too quickly before the plastic is soft enough you will see stress marks form on the apex of the curves. There is a sort of natural flow to it you will see in practice. I suggest starting with some scraps first to get a feel for it. Remember, the plastic I chose is only 2.3mm thick so it will heat pretty fast. You'll need to combine general and localized heat in forming it 'round your plywood especially at the front. I keep a fire extinguisher and a bucket of cold water (stops melting) handy for such projects but have never needed them.
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There is something very satisfying in the construction of homemade stuff that becomes an essential part of the bike.
Indeed! 'Most of the reason I did this. I make a lot of other things for my bikes.
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To share, the picture shows a center bag for our bike that we designed and sewed.
Well done, Mike and stoker! The bag looks great and so does your tandem. Mounting a chainguard for your drive-side timing chain will be a challenge with the S&S coupled keel tube. Packing might be problematic with a timing-chain guard installed but I feel sure you can come up with a good solution. :)
Best,

Dan.

hendrich

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2020, 06:48:16 pm »
Thanks,
I am also considering the hebie chainbar in picture as a base which provides a mount to the bike, and then forming/adding polycarbonate to further enclose the chain.

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2020, 07:59:09 pm »
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I am also considering the hebie chainbar in picture as a base...
I think that's a good approach, Mike.  :)

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2023, 07:17:57 pm »
Hi All!

It has been a little over two years since I reported on my Fixie's homemade, partial chain guard, See...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13951.msg103765#msg103765
...and...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13951.msg103775#msg103775

I have been using the bike heavily in winter rains this year and the roads are periodically gritted to help with traction when temps fall below freezing.

My chainguard is proving the worth and value of keeping a chain even partly covered. As you can see, despite the bike being absolutely covered in road smut, the chain remains remarkably clean. The bike is often parked in the rain as well, and I find I my lubricant lasts much longer because it doesn't get washed off as quickly.

Two key takeaways: It really paid to wrap the 'guard around the front of the chainring for protection while underway and to combine it with a generously long mudflap on the front mudguard. Nice to find even the open lower run of chain remains cleaner as a result.

I would fit a Hebie Chainglider to my Nomad in a heartbeat if I could get one to fit my drivetrain combo.

Best, Dan.



Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2023, 07:18:36 pm »
...Couple more pics...description in the titles.

Best, Dan.

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2023, 09:01:35 pm »
Looks like your home-made chainguard/low front mudflap do the majority of the job done by a Chainglider.

I reckon that you might be able to fit a similar chainguard to your Nomad - if you can work out a way of fitting the front part in the same relative position to the chainring you could fit an adjustable mount at the rear, perhaps just make a long slot in the plastic to mount the rear part.

________________________________________________________________________________________

I am still happy with the Chainglider, I now have them on all but one of the "normal" bikes in the family.

Just overhauled my Thorn Raven Tour utility bike, taking out the eccentric, seatpost, forks, etc. I hadn't lubricated the chain in the 2,400 kms since I put it on the bike, it has been running on the original factory lubricant.

The chain had a small amount of surface grime and looked a bit dry, so I took it off, cleaned it (toothbrush and paraffin bath, rinse in clean paraffin) and relubricated it (hung up from the roof of the garage and "Oil of Rohloff" dripped on the top, process repeated until the oil comes off clean at the bottom. This flushes out at least some (if not most) of the grime and wear particles hidden inside the chain).

There was no measurable chain wear. Before using Chaingliders I would have expected at least 0.075 mm wear on my Rohloff chain gauge for a similar distance.

So instead of permuting chains to even out sprocket/chainring wear like I used to do, I put the same one back on.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Another Chainglider tidbit : a while back I decided to put a Chainglider on my Raven Sport Tour. This currently has a 42T chainring and 19T sprocket, so I used the "standard" rear Chainglider part instead of the Rohloff-specific one.

Due to the large sprocket, there are no problems with the Chainglider rubbing on the hub shell, which was reported as a possible issue with smaller sprockets.