Author Topic: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?  (Read 630 times)

steve216c

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Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« on: September 29, 2020, 11:31:09 AM »
My baby-oiled, talcum powdered, Ikea-candled bike (see my other posts) is due for 5000km service. In fact more than just an oil change, I plan to replace bottom bracket, renew the gear shift rubber, replace the gear cable outers so I can use standard 'Shimano fit' gear cables and amongst other things, replace hub oil. Given that I will be swapping out the BB-UN55, removal of the existing chainguard fitting/support can be easily done at same time- so the opportunity to consider a chainglider raises its not so ugly head.

The candlewax dipped Wippermann Connex 808 is riding well- approx 500km between re-waxing intervals- but with winter rapidly approaching, I'm wondering about replacing the existing 'open' chain guard with a Hebie Chainglider as I suspect this will increase the waxing interval periods- given that 500km rewax is less than 3 weeks of commuting- so a reasonably frequent event for me.


I currently have a 42-16 set up, with rear cog being original pre-splined style. I reversed the sprocket on purchase of my 2nd hand bike, and after around 5000km is still not too worn to warrant a change of chain/sprocket just yet. My intention though is to replace it with a splined carrier 15 tooth (already purchased) at the point the current chain/sprocket needs replacing- making the bike go from 42-16 (unsplined) to 42-15 splined. Most likely in 2021.

There are forum posts about how the Hebie's wouldn't fit on the splined sockets when these were introduced. But do the existing Hebie offerings work on the splined?

The Hebie page is confusing me. I am English mother tongue speaker, but also speak fluent German. And neither German instruction 'eingespritzt=squirted or injected' or English 'moulded-in on the backside' clarify if the 350R S15 would work on BOTH splined AND ALSO old style sprokets.
 '350R S15 Rohloff  Steckritzel | Splined sprocket Nur wenn 15T-17T auf der Rückseite eingespritzt ist, kann dieses Heckteil auch mit dem Rohloff  Steckritzel verwendet werden! Only if 15T-17T is moulded-in on the backside you can use the rear part with the Rohloff  splined sprocket.'

Anyone have any experience of using that Hebie rear end on both old style and splined sprockets? Or will I need to purchase different rear end for current set up, and later change it for splined compatible?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:47:05 AM by steve216c »
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John Saxby

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2020, 11:35:17 PM »
Hi Steve,

An at-best-partial answer to your query about the Hebie 350R-S15 x 42 'glider:

First, I don't have experience with both splined and unsplined sprockets: My current sprocket, a 17T item, is the old unsplined variant, still has ~5 - 6,000 km of wear remaining after being flipped, and then will be replaced with a brand new version.  I use a 350R-S15 x 38 'glider, which I bought in 2014.  The raised lettering on the back side of the frontmost part of the rear section (!!) says that it can take a 15 - 18T rear sprocket.  Maybe the current rear section (15-17T) is fractionally smaller on the vertical plane?

Second, on the matter of splined sprockets and their fit on a 'glider:  The issue, as I recall it, was that the first iteration of the splined carrier moved the chain outwards far enough to upset Rohloff's 54 mm chainline.  The "slimline" version came later, and that meant a much smaller change in the chainline, no more than a mm or so. The former would have meant problems in fitting a 'glider; the latter, much less so.

Reading Hebie's "Info" PDF and their "Assembly Instructions", I'd assume that they apply to both splined (slimline) and unsplined sprockets.  BUT, it may be worth a phone call or an email.

Third, even with the old unsplined sprocket or the slimline splined carrier, you may have some clearance problems between the forward section of the of the rear part of the 'glider, and the chainstay on your bike:

Have attached below a photo of the close fit betw the rear section of my 'glider and the chainstay on my Raven.  You'll see that I have trimmed off the outer "shoulder" of the bump-up on the frontmost part of the rear section.  That plastic surgery gives about 5 mm of clearance between 'glider and chainstay. That in turn ensures that my 'glider keeps its proper amount of fore-and-aft and up-and-down slop. My Raven measures 440 mm between BB axle and rear axle -- if your bike has longer chainstays, its seat stays may be far enough back that shoulder surgery is not required.

A good-quality exacto knife or something similar will do the trick, if needed.

Hope that's helpful, and good luck.

steve216c

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2020, 07:33:55 AM »
Thanks John- I realize you have answered that you are not familiar with the splined variant- but if the fitting problem on splined carriers can be resolved by adjusting the clearance with the aforementioned plastic surgery- be that with scalpel, craft knife or other suitable implement, that might be the solution.

Actually, your explanation regarding the raised lettering now makes the PDF instructions make more sense. I thought they were referring to the actual Rohloff and its native accessories.  But they are referring to the plastic injection molding of their sprocket cover from the chain glider. I think the penny dropped now for me why the instructions didn't make sense, but now seem to make sense.


But what is with the part number. Your non-splined version is 15-18 but seems to have same parts description as 350R-S15 as the 15-17 description I took from the online assembly instructions. It would have made sense for Hebie to use a different part number to distinguish old style from from the other.

I'll hang on to see if anyone else can add the benefits of their experience. If someone has done what I plan to do, it is good to know.
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martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 07:47:07 AM »
I don't have the splined Rohloff sprocket. No Chainglider surgery needed to clear the chainstay on the 3 Chainglider equipped Raven Tour frames I own, but only one may be (partially) relevant :

- my Raven Tour with Rohloff and old-style 16T screw-on sprocket. This is a 587S size. As I have spare screw-on sprockets, when the splined sprockets were introduced I bought a spare Rohloff-compatible Chainglider rear part for this bike in case the new style version for splined sprockets is incompatible.

The other two frames (Raven Tour 612S and Raven Tour Step Through 390 S-T) have Shimano hub gears, on which the sprocket is closer to the centreline and therefore further away from the chainstay.

The more recent Thorn Raven (without the "Tour") frames will probably be different, but as your bike is ten years old I expect it will be a Raven Tour.

steve216c

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2020, 09:43:14 AM »

The more recent Thorn Raven (without the "Tour") frames will probably be different, but as your bike is ten years old I expect it will be a Raven Tour.


Alas, not a Thorn at all. I'm here for the English language Rohloff community   as an British ex-pat . But I'm riding a German Winora Labrador on the 'wrong-side-of-the-road' in Berlin. It was the right bike at the right price at the right time- albeit, other than having a Rohloff hub, not my dream bike.  I was (and still am) recovering from a DVT and stroke last spring and desperately needed to motivate myself back onto 2 wheels to help lose weight, recover lost fitness and reduce the risk of relapse- but didn't want to spoil myself too much on a brand new bike because a) I have 2 good derailleur bikes that had not been ridden regularly in past 10 years and b) I didn't want to dig into savings for a brand new bike at a time when my wife/kids might have needed our savings if things had not progressed so positively, partially due to me riding bikes every day again.

Until I started following this online community, I was not even aware of Thorn as a brand  :-[ but actually saw my first one while visiting my sister in Bath parked up outside her local Tesco. Having since become somewhat more aware since following the forum, it has made me more aware of brand options for possible future Rohoff bike purchases. (Still also quite fancy my Dad's old but reliable, comfortable and well ridden Dawes Super Galaxy. Shame that doesn't have a Rohloff hub though.)



If only my bike shed were bigger on the inside...

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 12:42:49 PM »
With the chainstay design on the Winora Labrador you shouldn't have clearance problems with a Chainglider.

There remains the problem of whether the recent Rohloff rear part will fit both the new splined sprocket and the old screw-on sprocket.

As you intend fitting a splined sprocket eventually, maybe just get the Rohloff rear Chainglider part for a splined sprocket and then see if it will fit the screw-on sprocket as well?

I am fairly sure that the Rohloff rear Chainglider part for a screw-on sprocket is not recommended with a splined sprocket, so if the recent Rohloff rear part doesn't fit screw-on sprockets you will either need both, or you will have to wait and fit a Chainglider when the current sprocket wears out.

John Saxby

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020, 04:44:58 PM »
Steve, on other-than-sprocket matters -- good luck in managing the after-effects of your DVT.  I had two clots, one in each leg, in 2001 and 2009.  I've been able to maintain my cycling, and even ice hockey, tho' I stopped the latter a few years ago to protect my knees.  Happy to share my experience, incl meds and fitness regimes. Send me a PM if that might be helpful.

Cheers,  J.

steve216c

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2020, 06:13:47 PM »

As you intend fitting a splined sprocket eventually, maybe just get the Rohloff rear Chainglider part for a splined sprocket and then see if it will fit the screw-on sprocket as well?

I am fairly sure that the Rohloff rear Chainglider part for a screw-on sprocket is not recommended with a splined sprocket, so if the recent Rohloff rear part doesn't fit screw-on sprockets you will either need both, or you will have to wait and fit a Chainglider when the current sprocket wears out.

So I ordered the 15-17 tooth splined Hebie rear end and it fitted fine on the non-spined rear sprocket. I gave the 5200km old  chain a thorough clean followed by a fresh swim in molten wax before fitting. Last waxing lasted almost 900km without Hebie and mostly dry days. Since fitting last week I’ve not been so lucky with the weather but the chainglider is catching the crud the chain used to catch, so hoping this Hebie will extend time between chain lubrications.
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martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2020, 06:59:56 AM »
So I ordered the 15-17 tooth splined Hebie rear end and it fitted fine on the non-spined rear sprocket.

Thanks for the feedback.

For those of us who have a stock of them, useful to know the current Chainglider rear end will fit the old-style screw-on sprockets.

brummie

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2020, 08:33:28 PM »
Anybody tried fitting one to a fixed wheel machine? Could be beneficial upgrade for my wet and occasionally muddy winter commuting routes.
 

Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2020, 10:23:43 PM »
Quote
Anybody tried fitting one to a fixed wheel machine?
Nooo, Brummie...but I recently finished making a chainguard for my own Fixie using my kitchen oven set to low heat, a plywood form, and a sheet of 2.3mm/0.09in smoked polycarbonate. A nice project during Covid downtime. It covers the chain run from just ahead of the sprocket all the way 'round to about 4 o'clock on the chainring. I'm nearly done getting it dialed in, but so far it appears it will work well for keeping the bulk of the rainwater off the top run of the chain and also the front of the chainring. I have a long mudflap on my front mudguard so there's almost no road spray that gets kicked onto the chain from below. I drilled a couple holes in the top which I covered with rubber plugs, the intention being to provide oiling from above without the need for removal.

I would have liked to have had it cover the sprocket also but that wasn't possible, given the chain is tensioned by moving the rear hub fore-aft in the ramped rear dropouts.

I shamelessly copied a BMX chainguard that was way too short for my needs and I remodeled a glass-filled nylon reflector bracket for the front mount and made a rear mount that ties into my Danneauxmade mudguard stay dropout adapter (the frame is from a 1970 road racing bike that had no dropout eyelets so I had to become creative, machining my own from aluminum billet and stainless steel). The 'guard mount so it is solid, safe and silent. I left extra clearance above the chain in case I ever want to fit larger chainring/sprocket sizes. I'm pleased with my present 38x16 combo for 64 gear-inches (I can hit 50kmh briefly with my hummingbird cadence), but I might want to go larger someday to reduce wear and I have the clearance to do so.

I was not prepared for the amount of finish work that would be required; the inside of the 'guard picked up every flaw in the plywood buck and required a lot of polishing to get to this point. Next time, I will use more care in preparing my mold. I'm glad I wore some undersized nitrile gloves to guide the heat-softened plastic over the mold, especially at the front. My first attempt with some samples showed the plastic also picks up fingerprints and those are permanent when cooled. I initially wanted to use clear plastic but wisely reconsidered when I factored in the molding flaws and oil spray/dirt and dust that could collect over time. The smoke color hides a lot of flaws.

Unfortunately, I think a Chaingliderlike floating case is beyond my capabilities. The key to their success is materials choice and a good, tight fit that is adjustable for application -- and a patent! Success on the Fixie project has me eyeing the Nomad for a Danneauxguard 2.0.

Best,

Dan.

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2020, 10:31:46 PM »
Anybody tried fitting one to a fixed wheel machine? Could be beneficial upgrade for my wet and occasionally muddy winter commuting routes.
.

No, but I don't see why it shouldn't work, so long as the chainring/sprocket sizes are compatible, there are only a few options.

Hebie also specify maximum chainring, chain and sprocket widths but I have gotten away with using thick 1/8" chain, chainring and sprocket on two of my bikes with no noticeable drawbacks other than a rubbing noise for the first few hundred kms or so as the Chainglider wore slightly around the chainring. In my case, any extra drag caused by this rubbing was not detectable.

BUT - I think someone had excessive drag when using a thicker than recommended chainring, maybe his experience was due to a different chainring finish ? Mine are polished TA chainrings for 1/8" chain.

A good choice for a chainring for use in a Chainglider is the range of stainless-steel rings marketed by Surly. These are generally thinner than aluminium alloy rings and are supposed to last longer. They are also reversible, so they can be flipped to get even more use.

I would have liked to have had it cover the sprocket also but that wasn't possible, given the chain is tensioned by moving the rear hub fore-aft in the ramped rear dropouts.

This shouldn't be a problem with the Hebie Chainglider, as there are ridges to adjust the length. On my Thorn bikes, the chain is tensioned by moving the bottom bracket in the eccentric, which, as far as the Chainglider is concerned, comes to the same thing as moving the hub.


Danneaux

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2020, 10:37:51 PM »
Quote
This shouldn't be a problem with the Hebie Chainglider, as there are ridges to adjust the length.
Nice to know, Martin; thanks!

OTOH, it would be hard to beat the USD$10 invested in my homemade half-version.  ;) ;D

All the best,

Dan.

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 07:19:17 AM »
OTOH, it would be hard to beat the USD$10 invested in my homemade half-version.  ;) ;D

As usual, a professionnal-looking project. It should protect the chain from the most important contribution of dirt.

Just after fitting my first Chainglider in 2012 I did a test ride in wet sand dunes to see what effect it had.

This test showed that the biggest contribution to dirt on the chain was just behind the chainring, where the tyre deposited stuff on the top run of the chain.

martinf

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Re: Hebie Chainglider buying advice - with AND without splined socket?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 07:20:30 AM »
Of course, this is only true if a ground-hugging front mudflap is also used.