Author Topic: Hope Hubs?  (Read 392 times)

yorkshirethorn

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Hope Hubs?
« on: June 05, 2020, 05:04:29 PM »
Hi All
I am about to order a mk5 Club Tour kitted out as an 'gravel' style bike (with 650 wheels and disc brakes), as , basically a mainly off road touring machine.
I am toying with having the Hope hubs (instead of the Standard Deore unit). I like the idea but they will be the best part of 200 for the upgrade. Worth the extra? I probably won't do insane mileages on them but it will be on some varied terrain.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts
Matt

Mike Ayling

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 04:22:05 AM »
Nice bling.
I considered them for my Mercury front wheel (Rohloff on rear) but decided against it
After 10,000km the Deore front hub is still fine.

Mike


WorldTourer

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 04:28:34 AM »
Hi All
I am about to order a mk5 Club Tour kitted out as an 'gravel' style bike (with 650 wheels and disc brakes), as , basically a mainly off road touring machine.
I am toying with having the Hope hubs (instead of the Standard Deore unit). I like the idea but they will be the best part of 200 for the upgrade. Worth the extra? I

I ordered a Hope rear hub for my commuting bike after having two Deore-type Shimano freehubs fail on me over the years. "This is just what happens to hubs like this," my LBS guy said. "They are all the same s**it".

The Hope rear hub just oozes quality. It is one of those beautifully machined parts that you almost regret having to install on the bike, because you would prefer to keep holding it in your hands and looking at it forever. I just take SJSs word for it that these hubs have much greater longevity than Shimano freehubs.

But for front hubs, I don't think it makes much of a difference. My touring bike has a Shimano LX front hub that has done well over 30,000 km now and looks like it will do thousands more. So, if you don't plan to do RTW-tour-level milage, then there is no justification for the greater cost of a Hope front hub.

[Edited for language per Thorn Forum Guidelines. --Dan.]
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 07:09:19 AM by Danneaux »

geocycle

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 07:21:08 AM »
Yorkshirethorn, they are made in Barnoldswick, think carefully!

Ive not had hope hubs but had a number of Hope products and been very pleased with them. From a purely functional point of view it is hard to beat mid range Shimano but I like to support smaller local businesses.
 

martinf

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 08:22:56 AM »
Nowadays I don't use "conventional" hubs very much - I have migrated to generator hubs on the front and internal gear hubs on the rear.

The most durable derailleur rear hubs I have used in the past were 1970's Campagnolo Record (screw on freewheel) and 1990's Deore and Deore XT cassette hubs.

The main bearings on both these 1990's Shimano hubs are sealed better than the Campag, so in my opinion inherently better for wet-weather off road use. I was particularly impressed with the Deore XT, which served me well for several years of mountain-bike use, then later for some heavily-loaded touring. This hub was still in really excellent condition when I retired it from service in 2012.

Both these old versions of Campag and Deore XT have lubrication ports, so they can be regreased on the bike without dismantling.

This is a useful feature if you ever ride through floodwater, but there is still the potential issue of water getting inside the innards of the cassette or freewheel  mechanism. And, of course, the bottom bracket and pedals.

I think (but am not sure) that you could lubricate the freewheel on the early Hope hubs without dismantling. If this is still true for current models that would IMO be quite a good reason for choosing them over the standard option.

So perhaps check on the weather sealing and maintenance features on the current possible hub choices before deciding.

If I wanted a new derailleur bike myself in 2020, I would probably go with a medium-level Shimano hub, in the MTB range that would be Deore or Deore XT, but not XTR. I don't think I could justify the extra cost of Hope hubs.

yorkshirethorn

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 10:45:46 AM »
Thanks very much for the replies gents, I very much appreciate it.
I have to admit that I am attracted to the 'bling' element but that is probably a bit daft as I would not describe the Club Tour as a looker (Gravel bike wise), although I have always liked the look of the Thorn bikes. I don't think my milage will justify them as I have quite a few bikes. Thorn don't seem to offer a halfway house anymore (XT?) Just Deore or Hope which seems a shame, 40 or whatever for an upgrade would be a sensible choice perhaps!

PH

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 10:56:37 AM »
Evan at the same price I's choose the Shimano for these reasons
Forged shells are inherently stronger than machined and you'd have to be producing in Shimano quantities to justify the set up expense.
I prefer cup and cone bearing to throwaway cartridges, yes they take a little more time to replace and maintain.  Once you've learnt the simple process of getting them perfect, replacement bearings are a tenth of the price and available everywhere. 
You could walk into just about any bike shop in any part of the world and get a replacement freehub.  Even if that meant buying a complete hub and stripping it, which is sometimes more economical anyway.
the Hope hubs are things of beauty, the pawls and mechanism are better made and it has a quicker pick up (Though I've never felt disadvantaged by Shimanos) The free hub will probably fare better if neglected, but if both are well maintained they'll both serve you well.  I'm still happily running a triggers broom twenty year old XT, It's had a new freehub and cones, it's also seen off a few rims, yet is still running perfectly. 
If I was thinking of upgrading wheels, I'd spend the money on tyres and rims.

PH

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 11:01:51 AM »
Thorn don't seem to offer a halfway house anymore (XT?) Just Deore or Hope which seems a shame, 40 or whatever for an upgrade would be a sensible choice perhaps!
Modern XT is very much MTB orientated, designed with stronger axles at the cost of smaller bearings.   Even on a Gravel build you're unlikely to benefit from the extra strength and smaller bearings will obviously wear faster.

B cereus

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 11:17:22 AM »
Shimano cup and cone hubs are hard to beat for both endurance and value for money. If properly lubricated and adjusted they should last for many tens of thousands of miles. The key is to have sufficient lubrication not only for the bearings but also to keep the seals wetted. Once the seals are compromised any bearing will suffer though water ingress. Shimano hubs will often have barely enough grease supplied at the factory. The other critical point is bearing preload. There should be just a little play present that just disappears once the QR skewer is tightened. It's worth taking a few minutes to supply more grease and reset bearing preload  as described.



energyman

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 04:27:13 PM »
I have Deore on one bike and a Hope on another.  If you spin the front wheels on both bikes at the same time the Hope wheel spins about three times longer as the Deore one.  Similar wheels and tyres.
QED
(Or is it me ? ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2020, 05:22:19 PM »
I'm big admirer of Shimano. It's very hard to beat midlevel Deore as value for money, and longevity too, if you look after it.

That said, I ride a daily bike that's entirely Shimano-free.

Shimano has price classes for a good reason: they are capable of producing down to a price, or up to a price. The threshold in the upward direction for most sensible cyclists is midlevel Deore.

It seems to me that above mid-level Deore, if you have the money, you can do better than the pricier class of Shimano components, in some cases much better because Shimano is selling an image rather than genuinely superior engineering. As an example, I have a bike with Shimano Di2 but it isn't the current Dura-Ace Di2, which is cut down from it, is not even auto-shifting but merely assisted manual shifting, and offers nothing on the suspension side; by contrast, the Di2 that I have is fully automatic shifting, its computer and small motors are self-powered via a dynohub, and the computer also operates active suspension. You could buy a complete touring/commuter/utility bike with this first series Di2 from prestigious makers like Gazelle for under 800 and Trek Benelux for under 1500. You can see what I'm talking about at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html if you're interested.

I take Paul's point that "Forged shells are inherently stronger than machined", but what you're actually buying a Hope for is greater punctilio in the fettling so that it looks and feels superior, and offers -- you hope -- better internals.

The problem with a Hope, as far as I'm concerned, would lie otherwise, in the temptation to buy other components to match it (a Royce bottom bracket, anyone?), and soon you end up with a gravel bike the price of a pre-loved BMW.

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When I'm tasked with such behaviour, I look down my nose, look the insensitive wannabe social critic up and down, and say mildly, "D'you know, those were the cheapest components that would do the job. All you're doing by being a cheapskate is use up the earth's resources faster. You just have to face up to it: you're a polluter, and I'm morally superior to you." I never hear a word about again.

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Something else that enters these decisions is psychological: once you have identified a superior component -- for any reason that seems reasonable to your -- and decided you can afford it, it is a mistake  to buy the cheaper product on the perfectly rational grounds that "I'm never going to do the mileage to justify such quality." The new part, which isn't quite the best, will nag at you until you chuck it off and buy the better one anyway. That way you buy twice, and have the fitting bother too, and often a chain of other components that have to be upgraded to match, and guilt about the waste. It's just a big waste of money buying the cheap component when you've identified and convinced yourself another component is superior.

PH

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2020, 06:01:16 PM »
I have Deore on one bike and a Hope on another.  If you spin the front wheels on both bikes at the same time the Hope wheel spins about three times longer as the Deore one.  Similar wheels and tyres.
QED
(Or is it me ? ;)
Either you Deore hub needs adjusting, or your spinning has a bias.

PH

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Re: Hope Hubs?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2020, 06:37:23 PM »
Shimano has price classes for a good reason: they are capable of producing down to a price, or up to a price. The threshold in the upward direction for most sensible cyclists is midlevel Deore.

For the touring cyclist, I don't think there is anything in the Shimano range that's above Deore, not when it comes to hubs anyway, I expect not with other components either, though I'm not familiar with the entire range.
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I take Paul's point that "Forged shells are inherently stronger than machined", but what you're actually buying a Hope for is greater punctilio in the fettling so that it looks and feels superior, and offers -- you hope -- better internals.
In terms of the freewheel I expect you're right, better manufacturing tolerances and better seals.  There's still on getting away from the fact that cup and cone bearings have a distinct advantage over cartridge.  I don't think this is disputed, I believe Campagnolo's  eyewateringly expensive Record hubs have stayed C&C after the rest of the range went cartridge.  It's easily demonstrated, just compare the play in a hub pre and post build.  So while there's no excuse for the lack of factory grease in Shimano hubs, they can't be blamed for poor adjustment, you can only get that perfect after the wheel is built.  Of course with cartridges, there is no loading adjustment, the manufacturer has worked out some average and that's what you've got. It is of course usually good enough, plus it's simple, there's no technique or learning involved, pull a cartridge out and press another one back in.  I don't think there's any argument that it can be a functionally better system.
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Something else that enters these decisions is psychological: once you have identified a superior component -- for any reason that seems reasonable to your -- and decided you can afford it, it is a mistake  to buy the cheaper product on the perfectly rational grounds that "I'm never going to do the mileage to justify such quality." The new part, which isn't quite the best, will nag at you until you chuck it off and buy the better one anyway. That way you buy twice, and have the fitting bother too, and often a chain of other components that have to be upgraded to match, and guilt about the waste. It's just a big waste of money buying the cheap component when you've identified and convinced yourself another component is superior.
I agree entirely, I don't think you even have to justify why you consider it superior, certainly not to anyone other than yourself.  I do sometimes get irritated by the questions about whats the best XXX for XXX.  I don't think I've ever made a major purchase like that, I'll decide what I want then work out what it costs, IME the best value comes from getting the right thing, keeping it a long time and being satisfied with it,  That doesn't mean I don't sometimes get it wrong, or circumstances change, but in general most stuff I buy gets well used and kept.



« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 06:40:11 PM by PH »