Author Topic: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples  (Read 1376 times)

renma

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 04:54:04 PM »
I had a heart stroke for Nomad bike, today i will be curious to try the Nomad X, just to compare how it behaves..

Let us know please.

What i don't like, his weight, about 3 to 5 kg more compared with other bikes of same category, his rigidity to ride without weight.

I don't understand the 5kg.
- A new Raven 530S frame with ST26 fork weights 3680gr (2600+1080).
- A new Nomad 565M frame with Nomad fork weights 4580gr (3240+1340).
- The Ex-Box will add about 100gr.
In case the same components, tyres and rims are used, the Nomad will be about 1kg heavier than the Raven.

mickeg

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 06:17:09 PM »
Regarding weight of the bike versus weight of the frame, I forgot to weigh the frame and fork before I built up my bike.  At that time they did not list frame and fork weight anywhere, so I had no data on that.  I weighed a bunch of the other parts, but thanks to a Windows update, I no longer have the software to read that data, thus all I can say is what my bike with all the components weighs.  And when you are building up a bike to carry a load, you do not want to use lighter components that might be too weak, so I did not consider weight when comparing the components that I was using to build it up.  Thus, I have some heavier components.

I tried a Tubus Tara on my Nomad, the horizontal bar was pretty far from horizontal, so I did not use it, used a different rack.

I commented above that:

Nomad is rated for something like 60kg of gear not counting weight of rider.  That is a LOT of stuff.  Bike unladen is roughly 20kg, which is pretty heavy for a bike.

I have not looked at a brochure on Thorn bikes for a few years.  When I bought my Nomad frame in late winter/early spring 2013, the brochure had a table of data on each frame size, I did a screen print of that table and attached it.  This was from the sales brochure for the Nomad dated Autumn 2012.  I have the size 590M.  Thus, with four panniers, handlebar bag and three water cages, the table lists capacity (assuming distributed properly) at 62 kg.

If they have changed the rated weight capacity, I am unaware of such a change.  There was a comment above about the X frames, they are listed in the table too, if they have anymore X frames and if you are interested in it, this provides some data.

That table might have an error in the size you are looking at, the 565M, the chainstay length on the table looks wrong to me, as they list it shorter than the 540L.  I suggest you get your data from the current brochure.

I have tried my shifter in at least three different locations.  When I was going up hill on some difficult terrain on a cobbley road in Iceland, there were several times that I wished I could have taken one hand off of the handlebars to reach the the shifter to change gears, the shifter at that time was close to where you would have it if you use the 55mm accessory bar.  But the terrain was so difficult that I could not take a hand of the handlebar to reach over to where I had the shifter, which was inconvenient.

I have several derailleur bikes with bar end shifters, I first used bar end shifters in the 1980s, so I am used to reaching to the end of the handlebar to shift.  When I got home from that trip I decided to use the Hubbub Adapter to mount my shifter on the end of the handlebars, thus I can have both hands near the ends of the bars for better leverage when steering in difficult terrain and one of those hands can be on the shifter.  I am very happy with this location.  I routed my cables differently than most people, I used some V brake noodles to orient the cables further forward.  Two photos attached.  But as I mentioned, for decades I have reached to that location on other bikes to shift so it made sense for me to use that option.  If you have never used bar end shifters, you might not like that shifter location.



« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 06:21:14 PM by mickeg »

renma

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2019, 01:38:22 PM »
I have several derailleur bikes with bar end shifters, I first used bar end shifters in the 1980s, so I am used to reaching to the end of the handlebar to shift.  When I got home from that trip I decided to use the Hubbub Adapter to mount my shifter on the end of the handlebars, thus I can have both hands near the ends of the bars for better leverage when steering in difficult terrain and one of those hands can be on the shifter.  I am very happy with this location.  I routed my cables differently than most people, I used some V brake noodles to orient the cables further forward.  Two photos attached.  But as I mentioned, for decades I have reached to that location on other bikes to shift so it made sense for me to use that option.  If you have never used bar end shifters, you might not like that shifter location.

I like your setup as I am using bar end shifters since three decades now.
Thanks for the images.

julio

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2019, 04:49:04 PM »
 [/quote]
And when you are building up a bike to carry a load, you do not want to use lighter components that might be too weak, so I did not consider weight when comparing the components that I was using to build it up.  Thus, I have some heavier components.
[/quote]

@ Renma : that's what i mean about 3 to 5 kg more than other travel bikes.

My Nomad weighs 20 kg dry.
I wanted something robust and indestructible.

 It's a bike with remarkable qualities, but it was specially designed to carry weight on any type of paths. It's an exclusive bike.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 12:18:53 PM by julio »

Matt2matt2002

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2019, 07:38:38 PM »
Can I throw a metaphorical spanner into the spokes here?

On a bike like the Nomad that is designed to carry ' extra' weight, is there not a danger of filling her up to the max?
Thereby riding a heavier bike than if on a Raven.
Lots of variables here of course but surely a factor to consider?

I've no access to the stats quoted elsewhere but will always remember that weighty feeling I had when I sat on a loaded Nomad.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

mickeg

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2019, 08:47:52 PM »
...
On a bike like the Nomad that is designed to carry ' extra' weight, is there not a danger of filling her up to the max?
Thereby riding a heavier bike than if on a Raven.
...

The solution is to buy small panniers.  You do not load up a bike based on a weight rating, but you do fill up the panniers to their volume rating.

There are exceptions, like in the photo where it was quite early in my trip and I had a blue dry bag with overflow behind my seatpost, I could not get all the food into the yellow Ortlieb duffle or in the panniers.  But if I had a lighter duty bike, I still would have carried as much food as I expected to eat.

energyman

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2019, 09:32:38 PM »
"but you do fill up the panniers to their volume rating.
Bought a couple of CarraDry Rear Panniers years ago and boy can you fill them up with "essentials" plus "just in case" & the kitchen sink.
I only use them now on my paper round when delivering magazines.
I now manage with a couple of Ortlieb front panniers on the rear rack which will only carry "bare essentials".
Q E D

Danneaux

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2019, 10:48:24 PM »
I carry pretty much the same lightweight kit no matter which bike I take on tour. Cold weather requires more warm clothing and a warmer sleeping bag and pad. Longer trips require a different stove and more fuel.

These factors determine which bike I take and how bulky/heavy my load is...
Location (i.e. near or far away from stores and resupply)
Climate (desert/hot climate touring requires much more carried water; cold weather requires warmer clothing and sleeping bag/mat)
Duration (time between resupply points and time away overall)
Bicycle load capacity as a function of the above.
Road surface (I choose my bikes with fatter tires if the roads will be really poor or if singletrack or cross-country. My bikes with the fattest tires also have the lowest gearing and so are best suited for hills)

I use compression straps so the same panniers can carry small/light loads without the contents rattling but retain capacity for larger loads if needed. If I am really going ultralight, then I use only my Carradice Camper Longflap alone or combined with a handlebar bag. This means I need to resupply with water and food daily or every other day at most and fuel about every third or fourth day with the lightweight stove I carry.

For long duration self-supported touring in remote areas without ready food resupply and hot temperatures where I must carry a lot (26+liters) of water, my 2012 Nomad Mk2 is my bike of choice. It also has dynamo lighting and charging and the lowest gearing of all my steeds and wide (2.0in) tires, making it my ideal expedition bike. Food and water are my biggest variables. Water weighs 1 kilogram per liter plus container weight. In the hottest desert temperatures I drink 8 liters/day plus whatever is required for cooking, so 26 liters is about a three-day supply. Food for a couple weeks at a time is not light even if you go mostly with self-prepared meals of dried ingredients as I do. Once those run out, then any meals purchased at stores will be heavier, most likely packed in pouches or cans. For such long trips away from resupply, I switch from my tablet or spirit stoves to one using white gas, as it burns hotter and more efficiently and I also carry more spare fuel. My Nomad alone weighs 20kg dry, but the weight increases rapidly when water and food are added to my basic load.

People often write to ask me which Thorn I would recommend for a given weight. If they will need to carry the heaviest loads in the worst conditions for a longer period of time, then the Nomad is the best choice in Thorn's lineup. It rides very comfortably fully loaded but is a "lot of bike" and stiff on rough roads when ridden unladen. I found it necessary to swap to a Thudbuster LT suspension seatpost to add the comfort I needed for riding it unladen on rough logging roads, making it a nice ride in all conditions. The Nomad's extra weight -- needed to make the frame robust enough to carry such loads on rough terrain -- makes for a heavier, stiffer bike when used unladen. Most people take one or two longer tours a year and often not in the back of beyond, so it is worth considering how you will use the bike the bulk of the time. I have a stable of bikes, so if I intend to cover a lot of ground (200+km/day) on paved roads, then I usually take one of my randonneur bikes instead, a matter of horses for courses.

I used a Raven Tour kindly loaned to me by Forum member AndyBG for four months in my 2014 double-crossing of Europe. Equipped with 2.0n tires, it rode very nicely even on Bulgaria's brutal backroads. I had no scales to weigh my load, but I probably carried around 23kg in gear and food for my more remote legs of the trip, plus occasionally as much as 8.5 liters/kg of water to get me through historic high temperatures in Romania and Serbia for a total of about 32kg/70lbs. The bike coped well but I think would have been overmatched in really poor conditions if I had carried much more as it just did not have the ultimate load capacity of my Nomad. Compared to the Nomad, it rode comfortably even unladen on rough roads without need for a suspension seatpost.

The current Raven has less load capacity than the Raven Tour I used, a factor worth keeping in mind.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 10:51:17 PM by Danneaux »

mickeg

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2019, 01:52:45 AM »
...
Bought a couple of CarraDry Rear Panniers years ago and boy can you fill them up with "essentials"
...

I got the rear Carradry about four years ago because I anticipated doing a tour with a rear only load, no front panniers due to a suspension front fork.  So, I was looking for more capacity in the rear than my Ortlieb Backrollers offered.  To make a long story short, the trip did not happen, so I can't say how the Carradry panniers worked but I still have them.

I am considering using the Carradry on my next tour.  I have used the Tubus Logo rear rack for almost all of my touring, but the Carradry do not work well with that rack.  So contemplating using the Carradry panniers with the RackTime AddIt rack instead of the the Backrollers on a Logo rack on my next tour.

Decisions. ... ... ...

Logo rated at 40kg, Racktime at 30kg.  I expect less than 30kg on the rear rack, but I do like having a rack that is not being stressed.

martinf

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2019, 08:46:38 AM »
The solution is to buy small panniers.  You do not load up a bike based on a weight rating, but you do fill up the panniers to their volume rating.

Agree with that.

I have a range of luggage and bikes.

For day trips I have a Carradice Longflap saddlebag, so I can choose my lightweight Raven Sport Tour or my old derailleur bike if using predominantly good roads.

I use one of my heavier bikes with 50 mm tyres if I plan on significant use of non-tarmac roads or need more luggage.

For longer tours I have a set of Bikepacker rear (42 litres) and Sportpacker front panniers (30 litres) from Ortleib, which is generally enough luggage capacity for me when I'm on my own. I don't like handlebar bags, so for valuables I use a very light rucsack  that generally goes in one of the panniers. Tent and sleeping pad go strapped on the rack, as does any overflow food purchased.

I sometimes carry a bit more luggage if on holiday with my wife, but I make sure the total volume is limited by not getting all the possible bags out at the packing stage.

If really necessary, I have a second set of Bikepacker rear panniers that can go on the front, adding 12 litres capacity, or I can strap more stuff on the rear rack.

I recently got a pair of Ortlieb Back Roller Pro Plus panniers (70 litres), which I don't really intend to use for touring. I got these because I need to carry bulky but fairly light stuff (waders, containers and a sample net) for the aquatic fauna surveys I now do. They are also good for my regular shopping trip, where I find it easier to load/unload two really big bags than using my 4-bag touring setup.

mickeg

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Re: Nomad or Raven - concrete tour examples
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2019, 02:33:45 PM »
In the photo, near end of trip and had only one more day of food which fit in a pannier.  The only bag on top of the rack in the rear was a tent pole bag for tent poles that are too long to fit in a pannier.  I have since cut some tent poles that are shorter when folded, can fit in the pannier.

It was a short five day trip so did not need to carry a lot of extra stuff.