Author Topic: moan of the day  (Read 1392 times)

jags

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moan of the day
« on: June 04, 2018, 11:59:40 PM »
I reckon we are all getting ripped off big time with the price of bike's Thorn included.
for instance i was thinking of going Ebike but man the price is unreal up on 7000 are they having a laugh. but wait if i just buy front wheel and battery it will cost me 500 .
now if i was to sell my lovely top of the line Terry Dolan carbon jobby with full shimano 105 groupset all the usual bling i'd be lucky to get 800 euro for it .
something wrong somewhere ,these bike  company's are pure gangsters if you ask me 8) :(
anyway i'm fed up with cycling this past 3 months or so, if i had a blow torch i'd melt both my overly priced bikes i reckon i was conned in paying out all that bloody money,as for tents don't get me started on those things they should be banned ,i could be wrong of course .
oh yeah Rohloff lads you guys need a really big  bottle of cop on pills paying that kinda money  :o
so there you go anto's giving up cycling im burning my tents in the morning theres going to be a big fire in the park tomorrow .
bye bye now

anto.

PH

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2018, 12:43:13 AM »
Sounds like a bad day anto, it'll pass.
Whatever you fancy there'll be cheaper alternatives, but value like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
If you're interested in electric conversions, there are some good buys round, several in the CTC group I ride with have them,  it's kept them cycling after they may otherwise have given up.  It also makes them popular into a headwind, no one else wants a turn on the front ;)

Andre Jute

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2018, 01:36:14 AM »
My first electric motor/battery combo was the Bafang 8FUN kit, still sold in the UK for STG460 plus STG26 carriage to ireland for a complete kit of motor, battery, controller, and all wiring. This is for a rack-mount battery, but you should ask if they still offer the bottle battery that fits on the down-tube because it makes for a slightly better-balanced bike. If you can change a wheel on a bike and fit a bottle holder, you can install this kit; it took me less than half hour. Don't fall for the other ads on Ebay which offer cheaper motors or rubbishy batteries; those kits are not complete and will lead to no end of frustration, whereas the kit these Ecosmobile people sell is complete and everything of the best. See the recommended kit at https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8Fun-Ebike-Electric-Bike-Conversion-Kit-36V-250W-20-26-700C-Wheel-/190694074560?var=&hash=item721d7621c7. If you get the kit with the bottle battery, you don't get the rack. I chose this kit as the best-value kit for an experiment to familiarize myself with the ins and outs of peddlers, always knowing that sooner or later I would need something quite a bit bigger. BTW, the three modes of operation offered by the controller with this kit is very, very important; many other kits offer only the pedelec mode, which is anti-intuitive (read "stupid") because it reduces motor effort just when you need it most; it is absolutely essential to have the throttle that comes standard with this kit.

My front motor lasted 3500 miles; I agree with Julian that you have to regard the motor as a consumable, and the battery too, though my battery that came with that kit was and is fine, and on standby as a backup for my current installation. I think though, that if you look after the electrical gear as well as you look after your bike, and if your bike isn't as heavy as mine, and you're lighter than me anyway, the Bafang motor could give you years of service, and anyway -- here's the big secret -- the motor itself, bare of battery and controller, only costs about Euro70 direct from China. I heartily recommend this kit as great value for the money, complete down to the last nut and bolt, backed by people who respond when required, as light as it is possible to go without buying trouble, and fun to use.

The newer centre motor kit I have now is also a Bafang 8FUN (no point in experimenting once you find the best manufacturer you can afford), but it is twice as expensive and some of the members on the forum thought installation was tricky enough to have it done by their supplier; the wiring is a bit trickier but I build tube amps with 1200+ volts on the plate, so I thought it a breeze working with 36V wiring; the biggest holdup is arranging so many wires tidily. I bought the motor and controller kit and wiring harness as one lot, and the battery separately, but from the same supplier who guaranteed that it would be a plug and play job, and it was. However, it is vital to your health that you do not reverse-wire the lipo battery (impossible with the first kit I described above because the controller is fitted with idiot proof sockets and plugs), so unless you are confident in your electrical skills, get someone who has a DMM and knows how to use it to help at the point where you connect bare wires for the final motor to battery connection (the rest is also idiot proof once you identify the little positioning lip and slot on the connectors). This is a kit that fits through the bottom bracket, so there's a bit more mechanicking involved in fitting it, so allow an hour before you can ride. Clearly, this centre-motor kit and its humongous battery is much heavier than the one described first, which is something else you have to keep in mind in your choice because the lighter the motor the less capable and maybe the sooner you burn it out, and the smaller the battery the less satisfactory it will be in operation, the greater the stress even normal operation will put on it, and the sooner it will wear out. It is especially important that you never drain the battery fully, and that you recharge it after even the shortest ride, religiously, just like you clean your bike.

Any questions, ask here; you'd be surprised at how many electrified bikes there are on this forum.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 10:57:39 PM by Andre Jute »

bobs

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2018, 07:48:05 AM »
http://

https://www.damianharriscycles.co.uk/prod/ele_0014_rm/riese-und-muller-charger-gx-rohloff-2017-bike

I'm seriously thinking of selling my Nomad and getting one of these after having a test run.
Bob
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 07:58:48 AM by bobs »

Danneaux

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2018, 06:00:04 PM »
Hmm.  ???

I see in basic spec it weighs 27kg/59.5lbs and has somewhat limited cargo capacity: It will accept 20kg/44lb on the rear rack and 3kg/6.6lb on the front rack. Gross weight rating is 140kg/309lb.

Estimated minimum range: 40km/25mi
Estimated maximum range: 161km/100mi

100mm travel sus-fork requiring periodic maintenance compared to a rigid fork.

I'm afraid I'd be out of luck using this on my solo, self-supported desert tours where I must carry as much as 26.5l in water alone and am often 161-321km/100-200 miles away from services. I think my Nomad is a better choice for me.

All the best,

Dan.

bobs

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »
Dan
You need to get yourself a jeep. :)

Anto

You need to change your medication  ;)

Bob
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 06:18:33 PM by bobs »

Danneaux

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2018, 06:36:37 PM »
Quote
Dan
You need to get yourself a jeep. :)
  ;D You may be right, Bob! ;D

All the best,

Dan.

jags

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2018, 06:53:46 PM »
Dan
You need to get yourself a jeep. :)

Anto

You need to change your medication  ;)

Bob
;D ;D ;D your not far wrong there Bob.

bikepacker

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2018, 07:03:16 PM »
Anto and no bikes impossible, at least not the Anto I know. One look at those bikes even with blowtorch in hand and you still wouldn't be able to damage them. The tents however, now that's a different matter.  ;) ;)

I leave on Thursday to ride to Watlington on the same ride we did together a few years ago, taking the same route and camping on the same sites. I'll have some nice thoughts of that ride we did, especially on those lovely Cotswold climbs I know you enjoyed.  :)

If you want to be happy learn to be alone without being lonely.
If you want to enjoy the world see it from the saddle of a bike.
If you want to experience beauty camp alone in a spectacular place.
If you want release your anxieties cease excuses and take actions.

jags

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2018, 07:10:46 PM »
Anto and no bikes impossible, at least not the Anto I know. One look at those bikes even with blowtorch in hand and you still wouldn't be able to damage them. The tents however, now that's a different matter.  ;) ;)

I leave on Thursday to ride to Watlington on the same ride we did together a few years ago, taking the same route and camping on the same sites. I'll have some nice thoughts of that ride we did, especially on those lovely Cotswold climbs I know you enjoyed.  :)
best tour i was even on Alan yeah those were are tough hills :o   these days i would be walking up them that's for certain.enjoy the trip  give my best to Rich and  Dawn hope the craic is good.btw my birthday on friday 65.

bikepacker

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2018, 07:49:57 PM »
Anto, Happy Birthday for Friday.

Great that means you are officially retired so gives you more time to come over and do some hostel tours. Nice and easy at first to get you back to fitness;)

That makes me 10 years except for one week older than you, I shall be 75 on the 15th.
If you want to be happy learn to be alone without being lonely.
If you want to enjoy the world see it from the saddle of a bike.
If you want to experience beauty camp alone in a spectacular place.
If you want release your anxieties cease excuses and take actions.

jags

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2018, 08:20:18 PM »
66 retirement age here mores the pity i would have free travel and  half price to pitch n putt club ;D ;DJune reminded me that my passport was 2 years out of date,i told her i wasn't going anywhere so leave it in the drawer ;D.
it must be 3 months since i cycled  just no interest in the bikes at the moment ,the weather here is only fantastic great cycling weather for sure  but my 2 bikes  are just gathering dust in the spare room.
i'm playing a lot of pitch n putt i used to be  very good at one time not any more but i'm having the craic with lads i know well. gets me out of the house if nothing else. ;D 

Andre Jute

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 03:55:12 PM »
the weather here is only fantastic great cycling weather for sure  but my 2 bikes  are just gathering dust in the spare room.

And damn right too. You'd kill yourself in this heat if you went out for a proper cycle. I went as far as town just now and got home in a great old sweat in the grand total of 3km.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 10:59:06 PM by Andre Jute »

jags

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 04:17:42 PM »
to right Andre  ;D ;D
i was playing PnP this morning the heat bet all.
Anto.

Andre Jute

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Re: moan of the day
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 05:15:30 PM »
Bob, I don't want to rain on your parade, but I looked into R+M a few years ago and decided their bikes are just too "special". Like Dan says, that suspension fork is immediately suspect even if you never go off the tarmac. If it lasts 3000km, you can come kick my butt around the block -- and I live on a block several klicks around. I've never had a front suspension fork that lasted even 1000m/1600km, except a very special item overbuilt by Shimano as an electronically adaptive suspension, and that was so insistent on protecting itself that I may as well have had a solid fork. And when the fork goes, and you decide to fit a solid fork instead, you'll have all kinds of problems because the geometry of suspension forks and solid forks are different -- and at that point you'll be back at Thorn because they build one of the few really good aftermarket sus-to-solid forks...

The second thing is that the R-M frame is so "special", it breaks the rules of stiff, reliable structures. Even its "integration" doesn't lead to decent loadability. Compare for instance the Tout Terrain, which is a serious touring bike with an integrated rack, or, if you want something with a special appearance that doesn't break the basic engineering rules, the Utopia Kranich, which has a 170kg load capability and has serious circumnavigation kudos -- and is very comfortable besides on its 60mm Big Apples, upon which the modern iteration was designed, quite literally.

R+M's claimed distances are out of kilter with the visible size of the battery, the second battery being an optional extra for only (!) 800. The battery on my bike is much bigger and, after about ten years of experience with electrified bikes,  I reckon its safe range is probably 40-50km. That's the maximum, beyond which it is dicey whether you will get home, and beyond which you will also damage the battery by running it down to the dregs; such damage will cumulatively drastically reduce the battery's life span.

The next problem is also electrical and a bit tricky to understand. It has to do with the instantaneous demands you make on the battery for very short periods, like getting near the top of the hill and being unable to change down without stopping and thus mashing the throttle, thereby asking the battery for huge current, an overload to your normal demands. For this too a big battery is desirable, and a small battery will not only fail to deliver as much current but will have its lifespan cumulatively reduced by a greater fraction than the big battery. So, basically, that second battery isn't an option, it's a necessity. More about these coulombs at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12916.msg96679#msg96679
Because of these considerations, one large battery will be infinitely superior to two small batteries for instant power and longevity both. You can buy a large, suitable battery for less than half of what R+M charge for a not-so-optional and still inadequate second battery.

Next problem: R+M are German and, like all good Germans, law-abiding to the point of severe irritation to Irish scofflaws. On a short ride you may not have discovered this, and the dealer would either not tell you or try to pretend it is a feature rather than a bug, but German electric bikes are, unless they're strictly intended for offroad work, which this particular R+M is not, pedelecs. A pedelec is an electrified bike in which the battery's power-input is directly proportionate to your input at the pedals; in short, when you need more, as on a hill, the pedelec gives less. It's very frustrating indeed. But German law forbids pedelecs to have a throttle, on which you can give the motor battery input suited to your own needs, more when the hill demands more from you, rather than the less of the pedelec. The pedelec is also subject to a whole bunch of other rules. On my Utopia Kranich, a bike from eminently law-abiding Germans (they wouldn't even supply me with a sprocket illegal, at the time, on a Rohloff, never mind fit it...), I bypassed these stupidities by electrifying my bike myself (at a fraction of the German cost for an inferior setup), and set it up with a throttle, a five-position power input (nine is actually possible but I don't see the need for more than five) by a button under my thumb for when I'm too lazy to hold down the throttle, and with the motor's output programmed to deliver a high, flat torque curve rather than high power. You can bet an R+M dealer, even if he has the tools and components to do this, will refuse to do any of it for you because he'd lose his franchise. But I got all these facilities, plus more that I didn't want but available mostly free on demand, from the British supplier of my motor, plug'n'play wiring harness which includes the necessary controllers, and battery.

One more thing: An electric motor installation is not a permanent capital asset; the whole thing is a consumptible that sooner or later you will have to replace, usually piecemeal if you fitted generic parts rather than proprietary parts. If you look after your battery, it is possible, even likely that the motor will wear out first, especially if you're heavy or a hard rider; that's certainly my experience. But the motor is the cheapest part of the installation -- unless you have to buy it from a German firm: then you'll get ripped. Ditto for batteries, even if, as is the case with the R+M, the battery on it is just a much smaller version (that's right, it's Chinese) of the precise large one I fitted.

Looks like you need more homework, Bob, or you'll be back here daily with (on-topic remark) your moan of the day.

As I said, I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but I'd expect you to do the same for me if I was going wrong somewhere you'd been already.