Author Topic: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad  (Read 835 times)

Repeat

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« on: January 15, 2018, 09:42:16 PM »
So in preparation for the arrival of my Nomad Iíve been trying to research what type of panniers to fit. There seems to be no shortage of admirers of both solutions and Iím left wondering if itís too much of a ďreligiousĒ question.I should say that at least to begin with most use will be within UK. I was looking at front and rear roller plus for the Ortlieb option and Super C for the Carradice.

From what Iíve read both would be good enough in terms of water resistance, the Carradice are larger and have the extra side pockets which is a useful feature. How do the mounting systems compare for ease of use? Any other advantages of one over the other?

Many thanks for your help.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 09:52:55 PM »
Happy user of Ortlieb SportPacker (smaller front, drawstring closure with cap-top) and BikePacker (larger rear, also drawstring closure with cap-top) here!

I would suggest if you go the Ortlieb route, it is a Wise Idea to fit two sets of spare hooks on the more heavily loaded rear bags. This way, you get self-storage of spares in the event of breakage or a crash and you also get a little more hassle if a thief tries a snatch-grab (the bags will remain in place unless and until the second handle/release strap is pulled. I also fit all of my bags with the stainless steel tethers intended to work with a small padlock to also discourage snatch-grab thefts while the bike is parked).

I would also recommend a second lower mounting "fin" on each bagfor added security and to use as self-storing spares. I have mine on the rear configured to catch in the "V" of the Thorn Expedition rear rack on my Nomad. This ensures the bags are held rattle-free.

The bags are extremely easy to remove -- just yank the handle and the hooks are released as the bag is lifted up. Mounting is the reverse: Pull the handle and slide the lower fin(s) behind the rack struts as you lower the hooks onto the mounting rail. Let go of the handle and the bags are mounted.

For use on rough roads, I would suggest adding cinch straps to any pannier. These ensure the load stays compressed against the rack, eliminating rattles and preventing secondary impacts from the loads inside the bags if you have to crash through deep potholes and such.

My Ortlieb "Packers" have proven reliably waterproof in all circumstances short of immersion. If you intend to immerse yours during stream crossings and such (a generally Bad Idea as that would likely also expose pedal, bottom bracket, and hub bearings to water as well as the lower frame tubes), then a wiser choice would be the Classic roll-top Ortliebs which do indeed remain water-tight even if fully submerged.

There is no exposed hardware inside Ortlieb's panniers. All nuts and such are capped with plastic covers to prevent (much) abrasion of the bag contents.

Best,

Dan.

jags

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1206
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 10:16:39 PM »
Dan where do you come up with all these ideas your a feckin Genius. 8) 8)

carradice look cool but i reckon there on the heavy side .
the ortlied bikepacker plus are nice sportspacker up front and ultimat 7 barbag your away in a hack.
but before you buy all that gear are you sure your going to need them .

anto.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 10:21:16 PM »
Of further note:

I prefer the Ortlieb drawstring and cap-top design for several reasons that might not be obvious:

1) The drawstring closure is easy to replace and won't jam like zippers or freeze shut as metal snaps can do on some other brands of bags.

2) The drawstring closure serves to vertically compress the contents, yet allows the bags to open as wide as possible when needed to carry short-term overloads in bulk -- i.e. food before you can strip it of its excess packaging.

3) The cap-tops serve as extra pockets with waterproof covers that allow very quick access without having to open the main compartments and dig inside. For example, I carry items in stuff sacks under the four bags' covers: Rain kit (jacket, hood, hat, pants, gloves, booties), medium weight fleece pullover, folding chair, wind-faced wool long-sleeved jersey.

4) All the bags include a zippered inner envelope pocket. There is an full length envelope back to this pocket and a zippered mesh outer compartment to the same envelope. I load my bags with these envelope pockets held up by one hand. Once the bag contents are loaded, I then put things in these envelopes and fold them in half so they lay atop the load, just under the dust cover beneath the drawstring. This allows easy access by simply flipping the cap-top and undoing the cordlock on the drawstring. If the envelope pockets are left to lay flush against the stiffener, then it is extremely difficult to access the contents once the bags are loaded.

5) When I have been in need of extra water, I have had no problems securely carrying an extra 1-1.5l bottle under each cap-top strap set. Very handy.

Used in this way, each bag has four compartments (main, cap-top, inner envelope, outer zippered envelope) for easy organization and access. A fifth means for carrying stuff is at the sides of the bags, under the cap-top straps (you simply need to resize them to the load).

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

pavel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • Way-Word-Way Blog
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 11:20:27 PM »
I've long used both but have slowly sold off my Ortlieb gear, leaving only one set of sportspackers (30L total) of which I only rum one - on the left hand side up front.

There are many disadvantages of the Ortliebs I found over time, compared to the simpler more rugged and more repairable Carradice super C system.  Let me mention some of these details. 

-  Mugginess in hot humid weather.  I do not find the pvc sort of waterproofing an advantage, but a small disadvantage.  I first rode with all my stuff thrown in without the use of dry bags.  How that turned out to be a poor ideas came quickly at the first tire repair during a rain.  They were so loaded up, it was very inneficient rummaging through all my mixed it together clothes to get to the bottom where my tool kit lay.  Another time when the weather was nice, I just resorted to throwing my clothes on the grass, just to make it easy to get my tools.  I came back from that trip, got some sleep and then imediately got online and ordered some dry bags.  Now my bottoms are in a black dry bag, my tops in a red dry bag, my dirty laundry in a yellow bag and underwear and socks in a small black bag.  The tools and my extra shoes still sat on that same side on the bottom due to the weight.  I should mention the other important lesson I learned on that early trip was the importance of a dirty laundry bag.  It's amazing how one smelly shirt makes every other clean item reak, in that hot sealed Ortlieb, in North Carolina's 42 degree, two thousand percent humidity.  They are completely sealed in Ortlieb bags, no way to breathe.  Lesson quickly learned.

- inability to repair tears.  I'd not had this happen, but have read of it enough where I think it could be a major pita in an expedition sort of setting.  If the ortliebs tear or rip, and they can, then they have to be duc-taped and prayed over so as to hold out to the next bit of civilization. They then have to be replaced.  No waxed needle and thread on the road repairs possible - as is the case with Carradice Canvas.

- Plastic vs Aluminum retaining systems.  I'd only worry about this with heavy loads on rough roads or if I rode like this guy (http://www.bikewanderer.com/blog-1/) in sub zero temperatures in the dead of winter in places like Canada's arctic or montana during the worst of it.  The rode in temperatures down to minus 30 degrees.  The bottom plastic race that holds the adjustable catch mechanism broke.  New bags were needed.  I trust the aluminum race employed by Carradice much more, they are strong and robust.

I've had both the regular and the plus line and now they both come fitted with the Q.L 2.1 system.  I thought that would be a nice feature but I wound up HATING it.  The reason is that I don't want to just pull up and remove the bags.  If I remember right I had the bag hanging by only one hook on four seperate times and I almost crashed one time due to that.  It's my fault I'm sure but its so easy to do.  You hang it  a thousand times and it seems like it's properly clicked but it isn't all the way, and the next bump it's bouncing one one hook.  I've never made that mistake with the manual way of tightening the Carradice - though now they come with a new fangled system, with which I'm unfamiliar with. Of course the old fully manual clasps are available and fit right on. I like also to use three hooks on top and that is available on both brands bags.

limited adjustability without tools vs limitless adjustability with tools.  The Ortliebs have a nice tool free adjustment bar, which fits on of my racks almost perfectly and disappointingly on my other two racks.  There are discreet steps in the spacing so it's a matter of luck if I can spread the bar just the perfect length apart so that it holds perfectly.  I consider "perfect" adjustment important  because it relieves strain off of the bottom if forward and backward motion is held on the top as well.  The price paid is that one needs a Philips screwdriver and it takes longer to change it from one rack to another.  But I get it "just so" and the bag doesn't slide at all even without the bottom hooked in.  So I find that another Carradice plus.

I favor the Carradice front bar bag a bit over the Ortlieb bar bag due to a small detail.  The bottom on the Carradice is flat while the Ortliebs are rounded and when using a divider, the stuff would push dow to the middle and lift the divider up, leaving all the small items mixed up.  On the other hand the Ortiebs have a way to lock the bar bag to the quick release mechanism.  Some may find that a nice feature which the Carradice does not have, but as I've got my phone there and put the GPS in when I go eat or whenever I'm away from the bike, I always remove it and take it with me.  Both release sytems are about equal - but not at all as nice imho as that Canadian made Arkels. 

I appreciate the Carradice supper C rear panniers back separate pocket.  On the right hand side I now carry my repair kit and tools and on the right size I can put in an extra 48Oz watter bottle.  This fat watter bottle is too large to put in a regular triangle cage and fits back there as if it were made for it.  I used to carry my rolled mattres which fit as well.  Also those large straps on top, the adjustable ones they can actually have a large mat stuffed in there and I often take soaked items and snake them through in order to dry.  The details are surprisingly useful on both front and back Super C's.

- Lunch and Beer money.  The rear bike packer plus versus the Super C rear panniers are 35% more expensive.  That winds up to approximately 35 hard to find British pounds.  I don't know how many times I can chill out in a pub after a long days ride - but I do take my beer budget seriously.  You should too. 

- Lastly .... and this is important of course, here we get to support either a huge faceless, soul-less, global German mega corporation (who admittedly make some nice stuff)... or a hard working mother of possibly several young children, who is working tirelessly in a 100 year old traditional job.  She is part of a team of fine craftsmen and women.  Don't they deserve a pint too?  They, a real human being, will even sign you bag with their real name - as they toast you, their valuable customer.  Where's yer heart man?  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrsxKYl18UU

bobs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 534
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 11:21:17 PM »
Ortlieb every time.

pavel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 326
    • Way-Word-Way Blog
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2018, 11:21:46 PM »
Of further note:

I prefer the Ortlieb drawstring and cap-top design for several reasons that might not be obvious:

1) The drawstring closure is easy to replace and won't jam like zippers or freeze shut as metal snaps can do on some other brands of bags.

2) The drawstring closure serves to vertically compress the contents, yet allows the bags to open as wide as possible when needed to carry short-term overloads in bulk -- i.e. food before you can strip it of its excess packaging.

3) The cap-tops serve as extra pockets with waterproof covers that allow very quick access without having to open the main compartments and dig inside. For example, I carry items in stuff sacks under the four bags' covers: Rain kit (jacket, hood, hat, pants, gloves, booties), medium weight fleece pullover, folding chair, wind-faced wool long-sleeved jersey.

4) All the bags include a zippered inner envelope pocket. There is an full length envelope back to this pocket and a zippered mesh outer compartment to the same envelope. I load my bags with these envelope pockets held up by one hand. Once the bag contents are loaded, I then put things in these envelopes and fold them in half so they lay atop the load, just under the dust cover beneath the drawstring. This allows easy access by simply flipping the cap-top and undoing the cordlock on the drawstring. If the envelope pockets are left to lay flush against the stiffener, then it is extremely difficult to access the contents once the bags are loaded.

5) When I have been in need of extra water, I have had no problems securely carrying an extra 1-1.5l bottle under each cap-top strap set. Very handy.

Used in this way, each bag has four compartments (main, cap-top, inner envelope, outer zippered envelope) for easy organization and access. A fifth means for carrying stuff is at the sides of the bags, under the cap-top straps (you simply need to resize them to the load).

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

Dan, on the Super C ... there is a drawstring closure just the same as on the Orliebs. 

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 11:24:14 PM »
I am not sure what the Roller Plus model is like.  I have the Frontrollers and Backrollers, classic version.  Mine are about 8 or 9 years old, I think that some of the mounting hardware may have changed since then.

I do not have the extra upper hooks that Dan cited, but I think I have some extra lower hooks somewhere.  I have heard that in a crash the lower hooks can break, but I have not crashed and suffered no breakage.

I use them on Tubus Logo rear rack, I have a couple different front racks depending on which bike I am using.

The Tubus racks I think use 10mm tubing.  I bought some clear plastic tubing that I slit lengthwise and put over the tubing where my upper hooks attach and also on some of the other tubing to prevent it from chaffing.  And electrical tape to keep that plastic tubing on the racks.  I am in USA, we use inches here, the tubing was 3/8 inch inside diameter, 1/2 inch outside diameter.  And I did not use the Ortlieb inserts in the upper hooks, the plastic tubing with a little bit of tape fit perfect.  See photo.

You can expect to wear some paint off your rack, I use black fingernail polish.  Convenient small bottle with brush built into the cap, dries fast and is reasonably durable.  The convenience is the important part, you will not touch up the paint often if it is not convenient.  But I do not take it on a tour with me, touch things up when I get home.

There are some big fans of the Carradice bags too, I just can't comment on them.  I bought some of the Carradry ones, I think the Ortliebs are better.

Second photo, I also have the Ortlieb 31 liter duffel which I think they call the rack pack.  But I only need this extra bag on a trip with a heavy load.

ADDENDUM:

In the second photo, I like to strap my rain gear on the tops of the front rollers.  That way I can get my rain gear really fast and I do not need to dig into a pannier to get it out.  And being up front where I can see it, I would see if it started to come loose.

I have a kickstand on my Nomad, but Thorn frowns on that so I am not suggesting that you use one like I did in the photo.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 11:35:31 PM by mickeg »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 11:50:04 PM »
Quote
...- inability to repair tears.  I'd not had this happen, but have read of it enough where I think it could be a major pita in an expedition sort of setting.  If the ortliebs tear or rip, and they can, then they have to be duc-taped and prayed over so as to hold out to the next bit of civilization. They then have to be replaced.  No waxed needle and thread on the road repairs possible - as is the case with Carradice Canvas...
I have quickly and easily repaired mine to full waterproofness and strength on the road (well, in my tent) and the repairs have held well and are nearly invisible after 4.5 years of further use. The trick is in technique and materials, but I take the materials (primarily Tear-Aid on the inside and a tube of Seam Grip and some pre-cut fabric patches on the outside) with me and have had no problems. The trick is matching the proper Tear-Aid formula to the particular Ortlieb material used.

The damage in the photo below was caused in one harrowing moment in Croatia. I was crossing a bridge with a loaded bus approaching from behind. Moments before he reached me, an oncoming car decided to pass another, leaving the bus no alternative but to dive for the shoulder where I happened to be at the moment. I'd have done the same, putting the lives of a busload of people ahead of a lone cyclist. I put a hand up against the side of the bus to avoid getting sucked under and the friction blistered all my fingertips and left clean tracks the length of the bus. The bottom of the right pannier was low enough on its rack to scrape on the rough concrete bridge curbing, wearing holes through the bottom as I struggled to stay upright. It was all over in a moment and thankfully with a good outcome, but I was left with a number of holes in the bottom of the bag. I made my repairs later and they've been holding since with complete waterproofness and reliability.

All the best,

Dan.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 01:05:51 AM »
I got a slit in a Frontloader about five years ago, glued on a patch but I do not recall what I used for glue.

The comments above about putting damp stuff into Ortiebs is a valid concern.  If I did some sink laundry the day before and clothing not yet dry, I do not like to put it into an Ortlieb, instead often will strap it outside somewhere.  On some trips I have carried a small mesh bag for that purpose.

Tents are always damp when you take them down in the morning.  I stuff my tent into the front right pannier, use the pannier as a stuff sack.  Then put some other stuff in there that I don't mind if it gets damp, like an air mattress and a few other things.  It is not a great idea to put dry stuff in the same Ortlieb as your wet stuff.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 01:59:27 AM »
Quote
 It is not a great idea to put dry stuff in the same Ortlieb as your wet stuff.
<nods> Yep and agreed, George, the bags are really waterproof, so one damp item creates a cloud chamber.

I approached the problem by fitting a pair of Ortlieb's detachable folding mesh pockets to the trailing panel of my rear bags to store wet or damp stuff till it dries. The pockets are pretty good-sized and will easily hold a helmet, gloves, and glasses with room for a wind shell too for carrying or storing when not riding. I put my wet rain gear there. If it hasn't dried as I ride along, then I string it up on my little Sea to Summit clothesline when I reach camp or lodging.

It sure was humid along the length of the Danube and I had a fair amount of rain.

I think it helps that I pack my things in dry sacks inside the bags as you do. Though I take care to put only dry things inside, if moisture does get in, it at least doesn't permeate everything else.

My 1-person tent is small and rides outside atop my rear rack. On tour, I usually awaken at 04:50, so if the tent is wet with rain or dew, it may not fully dry when I hit the road at 05:15. I usually stop to make breakfast after 60-90 minutes and ~20 miles. The tent stuff sack is permeable and black in color so any moisture remaining after my pre-packaging wipe-down has pretty much dissipated by then. The tent pitches mesh inner first, so I keep it in its own dry bag inside the larger stuff sack. Poles and stakes get their own little sacks and the waterproof plastic foot print gets its own lightweight drysack. The fly is the part most likely to remain damp and gets stuffed into the larger, breathable outer sack, the other things riding in there with it. Seems to work okay. In five years of heavy use, there's no mildew, the urethane floor and fly coatings haven't peeled or lifted, and the seam tape is intact.

Before Ortliebs I used either my own handmade panniers or Kirtland TourPaks. Neither were really waterproof -- too many seams and poorly shielded zippers -- so I put my things inside plastic bags. Unfortunately, the rough roads I ride meant replacing the bags daily, sometimes twice daily as vibration caused them to wear through. Of the three options I've tried long-term, "waterproof and care" has worked best for me to date, but required a sea-change in my thinking and packing.

All the best,

Dan.

mickeg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1345
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 02:43:38 AM »
...
My 1-person tent is small and rides outside atop my rear rack. On tour, I usually awaken at 04:50, so if the tent is wet with rain or dew, it may not fully dry when I hit the road at 05:15.
...
I usually stop to make breakfast after 60-90 minutes and ~20 miles. ...
...
Before Ortliebs I used either my own handmade panniers or Kirtland TourPaks....

My clothesline is about 25 feet (~8m) of cord with some clothes clips.

Awaken at 4:50, on the road only 25 minutes later?  WOW.  I am sipping my first cup of coffee 25 minutes later.

Kirtland is a name I have not heard for many years. 

A side note: this past Saturday I went to a swap meet.  Someone had a pair of Cannondale Overland panniers, they were either new or very close to it for $10 USD.  They are now mine.  I have no idea if I will ever use them, but if I choose to do a short tour where I want to go extremely light they would likely get used.  I looked at an old catalog, they sold for $95 USD in 1982.


Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 02:54:49 AM »
*Nice*, George!  :)

All the best,

Dan.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7330
  • reisen statt rasen
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 02:57:59 AM »
Having gone the Ortlieb route myself, I still smile when I see Carradice bags 'cos they look so ruggedly handsome and say "Adventure!" to me.  :D

Arkels are real nice too and well worth considering as a premium brand.

Best,

Dan.

martinf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 07:18:36 AM »
Until a few years ago I used home-made pannier bags (heavy grade PU coated nylon material, aluminium backplate, aluminium U section with custom slots to fit my racks instead of hooks, bungee and steel hooks for the lower fitting). These are now extremely tatty and not at all water resistant after nearly 40 years and lots of patching, so now only used on survey work or for local shopping trips, where they have the advantage of not being very attractive to thieves.

After working out the time and materials budget for making replacements I decided it was cheaper to buy new bags, so I copied Dan for my new touring bags - Ortleib with the drawcord/flap closure rather than the roller-top, which I like less.

I also copied Dan for the wire antitheft devices, double hook arrangement. And I use drybags to separate my luggage inside the panniers so that I can find things easier, and in case I damage the Ortleibs.

So far, happy with the Ortleibs. I may add external pockets to the rear panniers at some stage.