Author Topic: Chain tension how much slack  (Read 8214 times)

High Moors Drifter

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Chain tension how much slack
« on: May 16, 2017, 09:37:40 pm »
When tensioning a Rohloff chain how much slack should there be? I understand that if the chain is too tight this will cause premature wear of sprocket/chainring. I've done a quick search on the forum but cannot find a definitive answer, nor guidance in the Thorn manual. What I gather from other forums the consensus is the chain should have approx +/- 5mm (10mm) of movement.

It seems a number of members have removed a link to tension the chain. I assume in these cases the chain may have 'stretched' beyond the 1% usually used as a guide for chain replacement. So is the recommendation change the chain at 1% or when all the adjustment on the EBB has been used?

Your comments will be much appreciated.

Id.

David Simpson

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2017, 10:13:01 pm »
See page 12 in the Thorn bike owners manual:
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf

I found the manual on this page:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/faqs
Look in the "Customer Information" section near the bottom. You will see "Thorn bicycle owners manual".

Edit: Are you asking about how much slack in the chain or about how much wear in the chain? My answer is about slack, which is changed by adjusting the eccentric bottom bracket.

- DaveS
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 10:16:41 pm by David Simpson »

High Moors Drifter

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2017, 11:15:34 pm »
DaveS.

I don't think my original post was very clear. My understanding of page 12 of the users manual was that when T1-T2=40mm then the chain needs retensioning and should not be permitted to exceed 60mm or have I got this wrong? If not then my question is when the tension is adjusted using the EBB what should T1-T2=, 20mm giving approx 10mm vertical movement on the top run of the chain?

Id.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 11:37:30 pm by High Moors Drifter »

David Simpson

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 11:32:14 pm »
OK, I understand now. The manual says when to adjust the chain tension, but not what the chain tension should be after adjusting.

I think about 5-10mm of up-down slack on the upper section of the chain sounds about right. Remember that chainrings are not perfectly round, so I turn the cranks until I find the crank position where the chain is the tightest, then adjust the bottom bracket with the crank in that position.

Yes, you don't want the chain really tight. The only problem with it being loose is that if it's too loose it can fall off. (It happened to me once.) But if it's too tight, it will wear out the hub bearings prematurely.

- DaveS

High Moors Drifter

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 11:41:55 pm »
DaveS.

As you were replying I realised my reply wasn't very clear, again. However whilst amending my latest post I now see you've made sense of it after all.

Thanks for the response.

Id.

Danneaux

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2017, 12:17:39 am »
I asked a similar question back in 2013 here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.0 This topic includes Dave Whittle's response from the Thorn Workshops.
...and...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.msg30503#msg30503

A quick search for "Chain tension" (no quotes) in the Forum's search engine will turn up more on the topic.
=====
To confirm, Id, I have had good luck on three bikes using 12.7mm (1/2in) of slack in one run of chain after each adjustment after the chainring has been centered. With subsequent use, slack grows from there as the chain elongates from further wear.

To measure I place the bike upright with a ruler's end held against the underside of the chainstay, noting where the midpoint of the bottom run of chain falls. I then push upward until I hit resistance and the bottom of the chain is nearly 13mm higher than when I started -- that's where I get my slack measurement. I have found it to be an easy and repeatable measurement and adjustment is really quick.

If the 'ring has been centered and not removed after, then I don't need to recenter the 'ring when replacing the chain.

This has worked well for me on my Nomad, a RavenTour, and on my tandem timing chain. with no undue wear to components following adjustment.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 01:51:13 am by Danneaux »

julk

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 12:36:27 pm »
Using a chainglider helps.
• The chain wears slower due to being kept clean and oiled.
• The chainglider stops a very loose chain from jumping off over bumps.
just my pennysworth.
Julian.

mickeg

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 05:45:01 pm »
I have the Nomad with an Aluminum eccentric that is held in place by two bolts that have conical pointed ends that dig into the Aluminum to hold it in place.  If your bike uses the same type of eccentric for adjustment that mine does, you have to be careful that you do not adjust it too often. 

Each time you tighten the bolts to hold the eccentric, it makes new small depressions.  You do not want the depressions to be too close to each other, otherwise you could eventually end up with two long grooves instead of a series of depressions.  Instead, later when you use replacement chains you will be re-using the same depressions you previously used.

I can't say what the optimum distance apart for the depressions is, maybe others will comment?

After you adjust the chain, turn the crank backwards by hand for several revolutions to make sure that the chain does not bind too tightly at any one spot.  If your chainrings are not perfectly concentric with the center of the bottom bracket, you could have a tight spot on each crank revolution.

I have never measured the amount of slack, I just do it by feel and I make sure that after I am done adjusting it that I can easily turn the crank without seeing or feeling any chain binding.

On a couple of occasions I found that one of my bolts had loosened up.   Thus, I now put a couple rubber bands on my bolts so that they can not vibrate and fall out if one gets a bit loose.  I am sure I initially had my bolts tight, but when you pedal you put enourmous pressure on the bottom bracket and ecentric and I suspect that my weight and pedaling effort pushed the Aluminum a bit farther into the conical ends of the bolts which allowed them to loosen.



Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 06:23:34 pm »
Nice tip Mick, re the rubber bands/ bolts.
I've had that occur on my Raven.
To the degree that I first noticed the problem when the EBB slide out an inch or more and a crank arm clipped the rear lower stay.
Fortunately both bolts were still there so I like your tip.

If there is one weak design spot on my bike I would point to the 2 bolt adjustment on the EBB.
Maybe I've been unlucky but it has been tricky to set up the chain length/ tension.
And of course my pour mechanical abilities don't help.
😉
Rubber bands on an £X,000.00 bike?
I rest my case.
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

mickeg

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 08:11:31 pm »
Nice tip Mick, re the rubber bands/ bolts.
I've had that occur on my Raven.
To the degree that I first noticed the problem when the EBB slide out an inch or more and a crank arm clipped the rear lower stay.
Fortunately both bolts were still there so I like your tip.
...

The first time I posted that photo, someone suggested that I cut rubber bands from inner tubes.  They said that they would last longer than the commercially sold rubber bands.  I do not recall which I have on the bike right now, but I think that I cut some from an inner tube after reading that.  Most local bike shops throw away several tubes in their shop every day, there have been a few times I have asked them for one or two for some home project, they have been happy to accommodate.

rualexander

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 08:35:47 pm »
Nice tip Mick, re the rubber bands/ bolts.
I've had that occur on my Raven.
To the degree that I first noticed the problem when the EBB slide out an inch or more and a crank arm clipped the rear lower stay.
Fortunately both bolts were still there so I like your tip.
...

The first time I posted that photo, someone suggested that I cut rubber bands from inner tubes.  They said that they would last longer than the commercially sold rubber bands.  I do not recall which I have on the bike right now, but I think that I cut some from an inner tube after reading that.  Most local bike shops throw away several tubes in their shop every day, there have been a few times I have asked them for one or two for some home project, they have been happy to accommodate.

Similar to your elastic band solution, I have used a cable tie around the two bolts on the Raven that I maintain for my cycling buddy.
We had a bolt fall out unknowingly on a tour once and the eccentric worked loose. Had to get a replacement posted out by SJSC.
Since then, as well as the cable tie, I carry a spare bolt.

High Moors Drifter

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 09:43:21 pm »
I asked a similar question back in 2013 here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.0 This topic includes Dave Whittle's response from the Thorn Workshops.
...and...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.msg30503#msg30503

A quick search for "Chain tension" (no quotes) in the Forum's search engine will turn up more on the topic.
=====


Dan.

The previous 2013 post referred to answers my basic question, thanks. I had carried out a search on the Forum but didn't come across this post. However as usual it's nice to know that if you have any queries relating to Thorn/Rohloff this Forum will either already have an answer or the members will have experience of the issue.

With regards chain replacement from memory I believe you confirmed in a post in 2016 that you made the change at 1%, which I have tended to follow on my derailleur bikes.

Mickeg.

I have a Mercury with mini EBB so the two bolt issue doesn't apply, but thanks for taking the effort to respond.

Regards Id.



mickeg

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2017, 09:56:47 pm »
...
Similar to your elastic band solution, I have used a cable tie around the two bolts on the Raven that I maintain for my cycling buddy.
We had a bolt fall out unknowingly on a tour once and the eccentric worked loose. Had to get a replacement posted out by SJSC.
Since then, as well as the cable tie, I carry a spare bolt.

My last order to SJS, I added one bolt to carry as a spare also.  Cheap form of insurance.


...
Mickeg.

I have a Mercury with mini EBB so the two bolt issue doesn't apply, but thanks for taking the effort to respond.

Regards Id.

You are welcome.  On derailleur bikes I usually change chains at 0.75 percent.  I bought several new chains at a great low price from a local charity, I am hoping by changing them sooner that my cassettes and chainrings will last longer.


Matt2matt2002

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2017, 10:34:46 pm »
I asked a similar question back in 2013 here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.0 This topic includes Dave Whittle's response from the Thorn Workshops.
...and...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5569.msg30503#msg30503

A quick search for "Chain tension" (no quotes) in the Forum's search engine will turn up more on the topic.
=====


I have a Mercury with mini EBB so the two bolt issue doesn't apply, but thanks for taking the effort to respond.

Regards Id.

So how is a mini EBB kept in place?
Never drink and drive. You may hit a bump  and spill your drink

David Simpson

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Re: Chain tension how much slack
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 11:13:20 pm »
I have a Mercury with mini EBB so the two bolt issue doesn't apply ...

So how is a mini EBB kept in place?

There are four bolts on the bottom of the frame below the bottom bracket. Instead of going up vertically into the EBB, they go horizontally into threads on the frame.

See the photos on page 29 of the latest "Thorn Living with a Rohloff" brochure:
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf

It seems nicer than the Nomad/Raven way. I'm not sure why this way isn't also done on the Nomad/Raven. There must be a good reason why not.

Update: I re-read page 29 of the brochure, and the reason Andy Blance gives for not using the Mercury EBB on the Nomad/Raven is that the bolts should be removed and greased every year to prevent them from seizing. According to Andy, the Nomad/Raven EBB is simpler and therefore better suited for a touring bike.

- DaveS
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 11:52:17 pm by David Simpson »